Ilitchville vs. Gilbertville [[Freep)

[emu steve]

'Disaggregating the aggregate' - some geek speak from work - it seems:

1). Ilitch has mostly sports and entertainment, including one gambling site.

2). Gilbert has mostly non-sports, non-entertainment commercial usages, but does have one gambling site.

OR:

Gilbert has mostly the central business district,

Ilitch has mostly the area north of GC Park [[JLA is obviously way south, but that isn't his arena).

Interesting that other than gambling, they don't compete against each other. Ilitch does sports and entertainment further north of Gilbert's commercial enterprises.
http://www.freep.com/article/20140727/NEWS01/140726004

But they did cooperate on M-1 rail which is good. M-1 serves both well.

http://www.freep.com/article/20140727/NEWS01/307270087

I really, really like the article. Two men/organizations, contrasting styles, etc. etc. BUT there is room for both [[and others).

[Danny]

What Dan Gilbert did that Mike Illitch didn't do is buying more Downtown Detroit buildings, fix em' up, lure pop-art retail and his yuppie professional clients can move in. Mike Illitch had hold on to his Fox Town Properties for a long time. He rehabbed the Fox Theater Building, built his Motor City CaSINo brought some land up to Grand River Ave. Make deals with Comerica Bank to built a new stadium for the Tigers and that's it. Gilbert is commanding lead of making spontaneous capital investments in Downtown Detroit. [[ Or should I say Gilberttown Detroit.)

[Honky Tonk]

Neither one is doing a damn thing for me but spending my tax dollars.

[Dan Wesson]

This soooooo reminds me of that famous quote credited to the 1'st Baron Rothschild, Nathan.

"The time to buy is when there's blood in the streets."

John Mogk, a longtime law professor and development expert at Wayne State University, called the impact unmatched in modern U.S. history.

“No two individuals have made more major investments in the city,” he said. “The percentage of property in a major urban core owned or controlled by the two is unprecedented in the U.S.”

[emu steve]

This soooooo reminds me of that famous quote credited to the 1'st Baron Rothschild, Nathan.

"The time to buy is when there's blood in the streets."

John Mogk, a longtime law professor and development expert at Wayne State University, called the impact unmatched in modern U.S. history.

“No two individuals have made more major investments in the city,” he said. “The percentage of property in a major urban core owned or controlled by the two is unprecedented in the U.S.”

The one thing few mention is that Ilitch got in when 'there's blood in the streets' while Gilbert got in when things were much, much better.

Ilitch gets little credit HERE for getting in so early where only fools or visionaries would get in.

I see it all the time in D.C.: Folks got into neighborhoods, e.g., Logan Circle, Shaw, etc. a few decades ago when drug pushers and prostitutes were plying their trade on the street corner. They sat on property until things started changing and then made their move.

Now their neighborhoods have completely turned around.

Or the famous story about Abe Polin, a D.C. visionary. Someone took Abe Polin to a huge vacant parking lot [[yes, a parking lot destined for greatness) where drug dealers hung out.

That parking lot is now the Verizon Center, home of the Wizards and Caps.

Hell, the Reeves Center [[14 and U, N.W.) was like what is Mayor Berry thinking? [[who would put a government office building THERE?). Now that area is very pricey. I believe that area was part of the riots in D.C. [[believe 14th and 7th streets N.W.).

In D.C. today, we saw folks hold on to wasteland near Buzzards Point, waiting for the day that area would turn up. I believe the Coast Guard's headquarters were built in the 70s. NO federal government agency wanted to be there.

Now D.C. government will pay pretty penny [[like more than 100M) for land for a new soccer stadium.

[401don]

What a fluff piece. It would be nice to read an article with some new insights about their operations and plans such as Gilbert's retail leasing and residential. The only people interviewed are George Jackson and a Wayne State prof. Nothing new here.

[Danny]

Neither one is doing a damn thing for me but spending my tax dollars.

Have you not seen the development that Illitch and Gilbert done to the Downtown Detroit. Rothschild were right about their financial philosophy. When folks in Detroit spill blood turning their neighborhoods to welfare ghetto villages, THEY came in to buy Detroit.

[TennisAndMath]

The one thing few mention is that Ilitch got in when 'there's blood in the streets' while Gilbert got in when things were much, much better.

Ilitch gets little credit HERE for getting in so early where only fools or visionaries would get in.

I see it all the time in D.C.: Folks got into neighborhoods, e.g., Logan Circle, Shaw, etc. a few decades ago when drug pushers and prostitutes were plying their trade on the street corner. They sat on property until things started changing and then made their move.

Now their neighborhoods have completely turned around.

Or the famous story about Abe Polin, a D.C. visionary. Someone took Abe Polin to a huge vacant parking lot [[yes, a parking lot destined for greatness) where drug dealers hung out.

That parking lot is now the Verizon Center, home of the Wizards and Caps.

Hell, the Reeves Center [[14 and U, N.W.) was like what is Mayor Berry thinking? [[who would put a government office building THERE?). Now that area is very pricey. I believe that area was part of the riots in D.C. [[believe 14th and 7th streets N.W.).

In D.C. today, we saw folks hold on to wasteland near Buzzards Point, waiting for the day that area would turn up. I believe the Coast Guard's headquarters were built in the 70s. NO federal government agency wanted to be there.

Now D.C. government will pay pretty penny [[like more than 100M) for land for a new soccer stadium.

Wake me up when the federal government moves to Detroit.

Wake me up when Oakland, Livingston, Wayne, Washtenaw, Genesee and Macomb are 6 of the top 10 wealthiest counties in the U.S.: http://www.wtop.com/41/3594972/Ameri...ies-in-DC-area

Wake me up when all of Detroit sees a boom like merely one street in D.C.: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/re...evelopers.html

Wake me up when Detroit goes from #65 to #1 in most educated city in the U.S.: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...tro-areas.html

In short, Detroit != D.C. Nothing in D.C. is replicable in Detroit.

[TennisAndMath]

What a fluff piece. It would be nice to read an article with some new insights about their operations and plans such as Gilbert's retail leasing and residential. The only people interviewed are George Jackson and a Wayne State prof. Nothing new here.

The would require real journalism. The local papers are just propaganda machines for the region's billionaires and the Big 3.

[Wesley Mouch]

The one thing few mention is that Ilitch got in when 'there's blood in the streets' while Gilbert got in when things were much, much better.

Ilitch gets little credit HERE for getting in so early where only fools or visionaries would get in....

Bravo to Ilitch for investing in Detroit when few others did. I don't see why Ilitch is hated here. Its become almost a badge of honor here to beat up on him. I too disagree strongly with many of his decisions -- but at least he was here making investments and decisions when nobody else was. The 80s were truly dark days downtown. Bravo.

Things indeed were better when Gilbert joined in. If we can keep our heads out of our asses and get over fighting old battles, we'll all look back at the today and realize Gilbert bought very low, too.

[emu steve]

Wake me up when the federal government moves to Detroit.

Wake me up when Oakland, Livingston, Wayne, Washtenaw, Genesee and Macomb are 6 of the top 10 wealthiest counties in the U.S.: http://www.wtop.com/41/3594972/Ameri...ies-in-DC-area

Wake me up when all of Detroit sees a boom like merely one street in D.C.: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/re...evelopers.html

Wake me up when Detroit goes from #65 to #1 in most educated city in the U.S.: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...tro-areas.html

In short, Detroit != D.C. Nothing in D.C. is replicable in Detroit.

Yes, D.C. and Detroit are very, very different. No one disputes that and certainly not me, having lived and worked IN Detroit [[been there; done that) and having spent the last 35 years of my life in the D.C. area. I and others I know left MI in the late 70s or 80s.

That said, the principles of urban theory and urban growth [[or decline) is the same.

If not, why would all of the urban pioneers be spending bucks in Midtown? Why would Gilbert be buying what 50+ buildings in downtown?

D.C. is a great place to live, work and play.

Detroit is trying to become that, at least in the downtown areas.

[canuck]

Well Gilbert is a full-fledged investor on the face of it. What folks don't dig about Ilitch are the wait-and-see tactics that are symptomatic of the Moroun syndrome. Moroun is w/o contest the most reviled of the three.

[TennisAndMath]

If not, why would all of the urban pioneers be spending bucks in Midtown? Why would Gilbert be buying what 50+ buildings in downtown?

What's the total cost of Gilbert's Detroit acquisitions, not counting Greektown?

[Wesley Mouch]

Wake me up when the federal government moves to Detroit.

Wake me up when Oakland, Livingston, Wayne, Washtenaw, Genesee and Macomb are 6 of the top 10 wealthiest counties in the U.S.: http://www.wtop.com/41/3594972/Ameri...ies-in-DC-area

Wake me up when all of Detroit sees a boom like merely one street in D.C.: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/re...evelopers.html

Wake me up when Detroit goes from #65 to #1 in most educated city in the U.S.: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...tro-areas.html

In short, Detroit != D.C. Nothing in D.C. is replicable in Detroit.

T&M. You're logic is wrong. The feds were in DC when DC was crap. It wasn't as if the feds moved to DC, and then, bang, it get fixed.

A lot of our cities nationwide are recovering because of broad trends. Young folks today have the same feelings that our grandparents had towards city living. They enjoy the density, liveliness, diversity, and compact less car-centric living cities offer. They also don't have the money their parents do from defined-benefit pensions and from the real-estate boom. Its harder for young folks to make it in a 3-bedroom ranch in Rochester than it was. That cash is locked up with their parents. These things combine to help all cities.

The question is how much Detroit wants to enjoy the renaissance, or do we want to fight the old racial battles to 'protect Detroit's jewels'... which are of zero interest to young folks today of all religious groups.

[gameguy56]

Well Gilbert is a full-fledged investor on the face of it. What folks don't dig about Ilitch are the wait-and-see tactics that are symptomatic of the Moroun syndrome. Moroun is w/o contest the most reviled of the three.

I wonder if Matty will ever put together a Moroun-ville out there in southwest and corktown.....I doubt it

[Jason]

The difference is that Gilbert deals only in positives. He buys something and invests in it. He makes money, we get a healthier downtown, and his properties being in a healthier downtown makes him even more money.

He *is* competing with other people downtown but he focuses on "winning" by maximizing his own stuff rather than trying to minimize other people's stuff. He also understands that other investors being winners makes him even more of a winner because their efforts increase the value of his own.


Ilitch on the other hand does the opposite. He's only in the entertainment business. He buys property to protect his entertainment business. He maximizes his entertainment business even if it means he minimizes everything else around it. He deserves credit for choosing to locate his entertainment business in Detroit [[and also Little Ceasars and Olympia) but he also deserves criticism for hoarding huge swaths of real estate with seemingly no intention of actually getting into the real estate business.

[emu steve]

T&M. You're logic is wrong. The feds were in DC when DC was crap. It wasn't as if the feds moved to DC, and then, bang, it get fixed.

A lot of our cities nationwide are recovering because of broad trends. Young folks today have the same feelings that our grandparents had towards city living. They enjoy the density, liveliness, diversity, and compact less car-centric living cities offer. They also don't have the money their parents do from defined-benefit pensions and from the real-estate boom. Its harder for young folks to make it in a 3-bedroom ranch in Rochester than it was. That cash is locked up with their parents. These things combine to help all cities.

The question is how much Detroit wants to enjoy the renaissance, or do we want to fight the old racial battles to 'protect Detroit's jewels'... which are of zero interest to young folks today of all religious groups.

Excellent, excellent points.

D.C. had riots which caused many of the same problems as Detroit went through in 1967.

D.C. had a mayor, Marion Berry, who was reviled by the suburbanites. My [[former) congressman, Stan Parris, in the 80s played the same cards as does L. Brooks Patterson. I've seen this movie before.

The principle of suburbanization and then a return to the cities Wesley describes is more of a widespread phenomena, not simply D.C.

The question today for Detroit is can the government and the people and the commercial enterprises work together for the good of the city and the region. D.C. has answered that question successfully. What I agree, is that Detroit has much, much, much bigger hole to climb out of.

Sure the federal government and its expansion really helped. Instead of the federal government, Detroit has Gilbert and Ilitch to lead the way.

[Wesley Mouch]

Excellent, excellent points.

D.C. had riots which caused many of the same problems as Detroit went through in 1967.

D.C. had a mayor, Marion Berry, who was reviled by the suburbanites. My [[former) congressman, Stan Parris, in the 80s played the same cards as does L. Brooks Patterson. I've seen this movie before.

The principle of suburbanization and then a return to the cities Wesley describes is more of a widespread phenomena, not simply D.C.

The question today for Detroit is can the government and the people and the commercial enterprises work together for the good of the city and the region. D.C. has answered that question successfully. What I agree, is that Detroit has much, much, much bigger hole to climb out of.

We squabble. Others build. We say we must have a 'conversation about race' before we can move forward. Others just move forward.

In the past, I think suburban racism played a huge evil part. Today racism exists, but its just a minor irritation. The real problems in Detroit are self-inflicted.

We can and should continue to fight racism. But let's also fight against the real problem. Crime. Burdensome foreclosure laws. Stifling bureaucracy.

This is a rare moment. Almost everyone in the world wants us to succeed. We can, but not if we continue to fight old battles while the rest of the world says, hey come here where we can get stuff done and fight new fights.

[emu steve]

IF anyone thinks D.C. was immune to the ills which affected Detroit and other large cities, I suggest they look at the population of D.C. over the years. [[Do remember when D.C. had the crack cocaine epidemic it was known as the 'murder capital' of the world.)

1950 [[highest): 802K
2000 [[lowest since pre-WWII): 572K.
2013 [[est.): 646K.

What's happening with D.C. is both commercial enterprises and people are returning to D.C. and yes, D.C. did not sink to the depths of Detroit. Detroit has a bigger hole to dig out of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.

[Dan Wesson]

Where would D.C. be without the power to tax and borrow huge amounts of money.

The parasite is crippling the host.

[Honky Tonk]

IF anyone thinks D.C. was immune to the ills which affected Detroit and other large cities, I suggest they look at the population of D.C. over the years. [[Do remember when D.C. had the crack cocaine epidemic it was known as the 'murder capital' of the world.)

1950 [[highest): 802K
2000 [[lowest since pre-WWII): 572K.
2013 [[est.): 646K.

What's happening with D.C. is both commercial enterprises and people are returning to D.C. and yes, D.C. did not sink to the depths of Detroit. Detroit has a bigger hole to dig out of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.

Looks like in 2013 they had Capital gains.

[antongast]

Ilitch gets little credit HERE for getting in so early where only fools or visionaries would get in.

Why should he? Why is figuring out a new and innovative way to extract profits from a broke-ass city somehow supposed to be praiseworthy?

It's a common myth that places like Detroit are not profitable. They are, and always have been. But the rougher the market, the less scrupulous the players. Ilitch got in earlier than Gilbert because he was willing to be a bit sleazier. Moroun invests in rougher neighborhoods than Ilitch does, because Moroun's business strategy is less dependent on his public image, so he can be more straightforwardly destructive without affecting his profits [[the one thing that an 87-year-old billionaire needs to prioritize above all else).

Real estate speculation is, by and large, a dishonorable business. Parsing the degree to which any one individual involved in that business is personally dishonorable is a relatively harmless way to kill some time, I suppose, but I don't see where any of them deserve "credit."

[iheartthed]

IF anyone thinks D.C. was immune to the ills which affected Detroit and other large cities, I suggest they look at the population of D.C. over the years. [[Do remember when D.C. had the crack cocaine epidemic it was known as the 'murder capital' of the world.)

1950 [[highest): 802K
2000 [[lowest since pre-WWII): 572K.
2013 [[est.): 646K.

What's happening with D.C. is both commercial enterprises and people are returning to D.C. and yes, D.C. did not sink to the depths of Detroit. Detroit has a bigger hole to dig out of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.

This also happened to D.C. between then and now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro

Probably gonna be hard for Detroit to replicate that one...

[TennisAndMath]

T&M. You're logic is wrong. The feds were in DC when DC was crap. It wasn't as if the feds moved to DC, and then, bang, it get fixed.

A lot of our cities nationwide are recovering because of broad trends. Young folks today have the same feelings that our grandparents had towards city living.

Federal spending/employment is BOOMING. The Metro was built. D.C. is on the coast. D.C. is warm climate. GWU, Georgetown, American, Catholic, Howard within city limits. GDP is 2.5x Detroit's.

With regard to your suburb living comment: most of the people working in D.C. live in the burbs. Most people can't afford D.C. proper and or move out of D.C. proper in their mid to late 20s. Suburban living is still king.

Find a city Detroit can actually compare to. Detroit isn't the next Brooklyn, or D.C. or Houston.

[mwilbert]

I think it is a lot easier to revitalize a city in the middle of a growing metropolitan area than it is to do it in the middle of a stagnant area.