Ruh Oh! Grosse Pointe may have built new blockade on Detroit Property!

[iheartthed]

This has been a high profile controversy since the first proposals several years ago. The first proposals had a building spanning the street where the shed is. no one said boo about it being an encroachment.... just that all of GP is the new confederacy.

Nobody looked at the maps, that's understood. However, this isn't Detroit's idea. It was incumbent upon GPP to do due diligence to make sure that their building was on their property. If your neighbor expands their garage onto your lot it's your neighbor's fault.

[Detroitnerd]

Because to ask any question about residency is racist. End of story.

The Grosse Pointes have a long and well-documented history of real estate agents steering away minorities [[and even ethnics such as Jews and Italians), under the "points system." After it was exposed around 1970, that system ended, but a number of other factors persisted in keeping the Grosse Pointes an enclave of "whiteness." The prices of the homes alone would keep people without economic power out. And then there's just the fact that people don't necessarily want to live where they don't feel welcome, where the police will continually pull you over, where the shopkeepers will follow you around the store, where talking grinds to a stop when you walk into a room. There's a host of reasons why the Pointes have never had a lot of African-American residents.

What's the breakdown of this "beautiful mosaic of humanity"?

Grosse Pointe Park: 85 percent white
Grosse Pointe Woods: 91.4 percent white
Grosse Pointe Shores: 92.8 percent white
Grosse Pointe: 93.2 percent white
Grosse Pointe Farms: 95.4 percent white

Source 2010 census.

So, you see, with a past of racist practices, and reinforced by economic and social factors, to ask somebody if they are a resident is freighted with all sorts of racial implications.

[bailey]

Nobody looked at the maps, that's understood. However, this isn't Detroit's idea. It was incumbent upon GPP to do due diligence to make sure that their building was on their property. If your neighbor expands their garage onto your lot it's your neighbor's fault.

Not disagreeing with the overall point that GP appears to be encroaching. But if your neighbor builds the garage across the lot line and you do nothing about it you lose some of the objection to it being there as you acquiesced to its construction. You can't just sit silently by when you know the guy is making a mistake.

[Hermod]

I find it doubtful that Detroit was ever notified by GPP of their intentions to build this thing.

Maybe GPP tried to call, but the phone just kept on ringing [[or it was answered and they were put on extended hold/ignore).

[Bham1982]

The Grosse Pointes have a long and well-documented history of real estate agents steering away minorities [[and even ethnics such as Jews and Italians), under the "points system." After it was exposed around 1970, that system ended, but a number of other factors persisted in keeping the Grosse Pointes an enclave of "whiteness." The prices of the homes alone would keep people without economic power out. And then there's just the fact that people don't necessarily want to live where they don't feel welcome, where the police will continually pull you over, where the shopkeepers will follow you around the store, where talking grinds to a stop when you walk into a room. There's a host of reasons why the Pointes have never had a lot of African-American residents.

What's the breakdown of this "beautiful mosaic of humanity"?

Grosse Pointe Park: 85 percent white
Grosse Pointe Woods: 91.4 percent white
Grosse Pointe Shores: 92.8 percent white
Grosse Pointe: 93.2 percent white
Grosse Pointe Farms: 95.4 percent white

Source 2010 census.

So, you see, with a past of racist practices, and reinforced by economic and social factors, to ask somebody if they are a resident is freighted with all sorts of racial implications.

I'm not sure how any of this contradicts what I wrote.

Again, the Pointes are more diverse than the East Side of Detroit, and it isn't even close. There are actually different races and incomes and family types, living, shopping, dining, attending schools, etc. African Americans are moving to the Pointes, and away from Detroit, for very obvious reasons.

[Honky Tonk]

Maybe GPP tried to call, but the phone just kept on ringing [[or it was answered and they were put on extended hold/ignore).

Maybe they got one of those "voicemail's full" replies, like I do when I call.

[iheartthed]

Not disagreeing with the overall point that GP appears to be encroaching. But if your neighbor builds the garage across the lot line and you do nothing about it you lose some of the objection to it being there as you acquiesced to its construction. You can't just sit silently by when you know the guy is making a mistake.

No, my neighbor has a responsibility to make sure he's building within his own property. It doesn't matter if I realize it before or after the job is done. If that's not something that was discussed and planned by both he and I then it's his responsibility to make sure he's doing everything correctly. Whenever I realize that he's on my property then it's his liability and responsibility to fix.

[sumas]

Read your initial post. You claimed that you were immune to the claimed [[and probably imaginary) bias in the Pointes because you were white [[obviously implying that the Pointes were biased against African Americans).

Yet for some odd reason the Pointes have a fast growing African American community, while that of the East Side declines by the year. I wonder why?

You must be dumb as a stump, I didn't claim immunity, simply there was no overt hostility towards white renters although the Park wasn't happy about renters in general. As to your claim of diversity all I can do is just laugh.

You're right I rarely enter the pointes, it isn't the citizens just the public policy I object to. We had great neighbors in GPP and in turn we were great neighbors.

Due to that new wall I won't ever go there again although I did have a few stores/restaurants we patronized. I certainly will send them a note that they lost patronage because of my "imaginary" belief in racist practices. No doubt you believe their business will triple because those worrisome negros are kept out.

By the way my neighborhood is growing in population, many are those youth GP is trying to retain.

[Bham1982]

You must be dumb as a stump, I didn't claim immunity, simply there was no overt hostility towards white renters although the Park wasn't happy about renters in general. As to your claim of diversity all I can do is just laugh.

I may be "dumb as a stump", but I do have the ability to see that the Pointes are A. More diverse than the East Side, 2. Hugely attractive to African Americans with means and C. Getting more diverse all the time.

Places like GPP are, for Michigan standards, rather progressive. They're trying to decriminalize marijuana. They have schools where no race is the majority. They're walkable, and bikeable, and getting better all the time. They're attracting all types of families. Good luck with any of this in the prairies across Alter.

And why wouldn't they try and limit rentals? Rentals generally degrade property values in homeowner communities. On what planet would a municipality have a policy of trying to degrade their tax base?

[bailey]

No, my neighbor has a responsibility to make sure he's building within his own property. It doesn't matter if I realize it before or after the job is done. If that's not something that was discussed and planned by both he and I then it's his responsibility to make sure he's doing everything correctly. Whenever I realize that he's on my property then it's his liability and responsibility to fix.

I think we're talking past each other.[[especially since residential boundary disputes are different from municipal disputes) Yes it's his duty to build it in the right spot, but you're knowledge of the encroachment does matter. What I'm saying is that if you know it's encroaching and you sit silently and watch it get built, just waiting for it to be completed before you make an objection, that is going to affect your position adversely. ie you may just get money damages and not an injunction and order for him to move it...

Further if you and the neighbor have acted as if that line of bushes was the lot line for years, and then he builds that garage up to the bushes and you find out ... whoops.. the lot line is really 10 feet over, in Michigan at least, it's going to be very hard to get him to move the garage because you both acted as if the bushes were the lot line.

Now, Municipalities have different rules, but if GP and Detroit have been following GP's charter ... then how is this fuck up just GP's fault?

Side note... who approved the demo of Art's Liquor 4 -5[[?) months ago then? Since per that drawing it lies entirely within Detroit and has a detroit address.

p.s. just noticed the google street view of the intersection [[dated 9-2013) has a little circle of construction cones in the middle of the intersection for what appears to be no reason. I assume they were doing traffic studies on this last fall?

[sumas]

I may be "dumb as a stump", but I do have the ability to see that the Pointes are A. More diverse than the East Side, 2. Hugely attractive to African Americans with means and C. Getting more diverse all the time.

Places like GPP are, for Michigan standards, rather progressive. They're trying to decriminalize marijuana. They have schools where no race is the majority. They're walkable, and bikeable, and getting better all the time. They're attracting all types of families. Good luck with any of this in the prairies across Alter.

And why wouldn't they try and limit rentals? Rentals generally degrade property values in homeowner communities. On what planet would a municipality have a policy of trying to degrade their tax base?

Actually I agree with several of your points. So are you going to take me up on my invitation for sat, 7/19, 2 to 4 @ 2153 Field [[not my house by the way) it is next to a neighbors home and one of many vacant lots the city owns but maintained by residents. A community at work that plans to preserve our area. Good food, good fellowship. Yes Virginia, life and happiness still survives in this "awful" city.

[SWMAP]

[QUOTE=Bham1982;443685]Are you referring to Motor City Muckraker? That's not exactly a legitimate news source.

What does this mean? Why isn't Motorcity Muckraker a "legitimate" news source?

The term muckraker refers to reform-minded journalists who wrote largely for all popular magazines and continued a tradition of investigative journalism reporting; muckrakers often worked to expose social ills and corporate and political corruption. Muckraking magazines—notably McClure's of publisher S. S. McClure—took on corporate monopolies and crooked political machines while raising public awareness of chronic urban poverty, unsafe working conditions, and social issues like child labor.

There is no doubt that steve neavling fits this description to a T.

[Detroitnerd]

I'm not sure how any of this contradicts what I wrote.

Again, the Pointes are more diverse than the East Side of Detroit, and it isn't even close. There are actually different races and incomes and family types, living, shopping, dining, attending schools, etc. African Americans are moving to the Pointes, and away from Detroit, for very obvious reasons.

You are a living, breathing sarcasm, Bham.

[RO_Resident]

You have to be very careful when using GIS files for such precise things as parcels and municipal boundaries.

In this case, it looks like Detroit made the boundary swing all the way to Wayburn's right-of-way line. It looks like this is too far to the east.

Grosse Pointe Park's assessor shows 4 tax records on Kercheval west of Wayburn:

South side of Kercheval--
14932 Kercheval [[x2) includes Shaw's Books
14938 Kercheval Greenspace Holdings

It does not include the St Vincent de Paul shop
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3806...egqhHJG-5A!2e0

North side of Kercheval
14945 Kercheval
I'm assuming it is at least the first bay with the roll-up door of the Art's Liquor Store building. The westernmost door has the address 14933.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3806...egqhHJG-5A!2e0

Oh, and the yellow markings on the road usually denote gas utilities.

Grosse Pointe Park's charter says the boundary is " a point on the East line of the City of Detroit, said point being a distance at right angles of
two hundred [[200) feet more or less, of the East line of Alter Road, as extended;
thence northerly in a straight line and parallel to Alter Road to the place of
beginning."

So, there is a funky jog in this area.

Finally, the people on the west side Wayburn filed a lawsuit a number of years ago. Detroit claimed they were in Detroit for the purposes of the city's income tax, the homeowners thought otherwise. The homeowners prevailed.
http://www.leagle.com/decision/19814...ichApp321_1397

So, this isn't the first time this border has come into question.

[313WX]

Even if Detroit does challenge this and the blockade is found to be on the wrong side of the border, GPP will simply just move the blockade a couple feet or so until it's safely within their side of the border...

[Detroitnerd]

Wouldn't it be funny if Detroit used it as a "welcome center"?

[Zacha341]

You've got jokes HT! ----!

I asked one "Detroiter", shopping for plumbing parts, what he thought about the street being closed off. He said he thought it was a great idea. I did tell him I was from Detroit before I asked. But I didn't tell him I was white.

[Goose]

No doubt you believe their business will triple because those worrisome negros are kept out..

I hear ya... probably once they hit the "barrier" on Kercheval, they will be unable to figure out a complex re-route, like one block west.... and will just turn around..... sucks they were never taught how to navigate in the Detroit schools.....

of course, there is the secret map that is handed out to white Detoiters that shows them the acccess points into Grosse Pointe Park - did you get one?

[Danny]

You have to be very careful when using GIS files for such precise things as parcels and municipal boundaries.

In this case, it looks like Detroit made the boundary swing all the way to Wayburn's right-of-way line. It looks like this is too far to the east.

Grosse Pointe Park's assessor shows 4 tax records on Kercheval west of Wayburn:

South side of Kercheval--
14932 Kercheval [[x2) includes Shaw's Books
14938 Kercheval Greenspace Holdings

It does not include the St Vincent de Paul shop
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3806...egqhHJG-5A!2e0

North side of Kercheval
14945 Kercheval
I'm assuming it is at least the first bay with the roll-up door of the Art's Liquor Store building. The westernmost door has the address 14933.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3806...egqhHJG-5A!2e0

Oh, and the yellow markings on the road usually denote gas utilities.

Grosse Pointe Park's charter says the boundary is " a point on the East line of the City of Detroit, said point being a distance at right angles of
two hundred [[200) feet more or less, of the East line of Alter Road, as extended;
thence northerly in a straight line and parallel to Alter Road to the place of
beginning."

So, there is a funky jog in this area.

Finally, the people on the west side Wayburn filed a lawsuit a number of years ago. Detroit claimed they were in Detroit for the purposes of the city's income tax, the homeowners thought otherwise. The homeowners prevailed.
http://www.leagle.com/decision/19814...ichApp321_1397

So, this isn't the first time this border has come into question.

Basically the border line from Detroit and Grosse Pointe Park is the alley between the houses of Alter Rd and Wayburn St. Wayburn St is part of Grosse Pointe Park, not Detroit. On Kercheval St. from Alter Rd to Wayburn St. There were six storefronts in both sides. Three belong to Detroit, the other belong to Grosse Pointe Park. Any property that is east of the alley belongs to Grosse Pointe Park, any property that is west of the alley belongs to Detroit. Those folks in Richville built their demarcated marketplace on the Detroit side. There they are in violation of the 1909 border charter.

[sumas]

I hear ya... probably once they hit the "barrier" on Kercheval, they will be unable to figure out a complex re-route, like one block west.... and will just turn around..... sucks they were never taught how to navigate in the Detroit schools.....

of course, there is the secret map that is handed out to white Detoiters that shows them the acccess points into Grosse Pointe Park - did you get one?

Actually the re-route is to the north. As a Detroit fan and current resident for many years but former resident of GPP of course we had secret ways of getting out despite all those street closures.

[sumas]

Actually I agree with several of your points. So are you going to take me up on my invitation for sat, 7/19, 2 to 4 @ 2153 Field [[not my house by the way) it is next to a neighbors home and one of many vacant lots the city owns but maintained by residents. A community at work that plans to preserve our area. Good food, good fellowship. Yes Virginia, life and happiness still survives in this "awful" city.

This is hilarious I am quoting myself regarding my invite to Bham. Afraid? We will have police presence there as we are honoring them for improved community relations and response. Again good food, good fellowship. I will even throw in a tour of my 112 yr old Arts and Craft home up the way. There are homes older then mine in our village. Darn I forgot to mention this neighborhood was never deed restricted so we are steeped in generations of black Americans. Scary stuff huh.

So much better to focus on the positives and build on that. Actually a forum member is rehabbing the corner brownstone apartments and doing a good job.

[sumas]

Actually I should feel bad for taunting Bham, although the invite is sincere. But I don't. Come on Bham respond. We in Islandview Village are a historic community, easy to find but then maybe you can't find your way out of the suburbs.

Maybe too many walls real or in ones narrow outlook. Heck I'll even play country music if you show, since it is true that we do deal with urban prairies.

[Novine]

Reminds me of the legal eagles in Plymouth Township that tried to buy and sell CoD property in the township after Wayne County foreclosed on the property for failure to pay taxes. Except that the property was owned by CoD and wasn't being used in a way that would require the city to pay taxes. The township was warned of the legal problems but tried to sell the property anyways. A judge shut that down and it's likely that the CoD will get the property back despite the incompetence of the county and township.

[mercyme]

This is hilarious I am quoting myself regarding my invite to Bham. Afraid? We will have police presence there as we are honoring them for improved community relations and response. Again good food, good fellowship. I will even throw in a tour of my 112 yr old Arts and Craft home up the way. There are homes older then mine in our village. Darn I forgot to mention this neighborhood was never deed restricted so we are steeped in generations of black Americans. Scary stuff huh.

So much better to focus on the positives and build on that. Actually a forum member is rehabbing the corner brownstone apartments and doing a good job.

SUMAS, I turn 65 tomorrow so when I grew up in Detroit it was a wonderful place to live. Your neighborhood sounds marvelous to me. It's because of folks like you that Detroit maintains some semblance of normalcy and will, one day, come back as it once was. Wish I wasn't in
Florida or I'd beg an invite to your neighborhood activity.

[canuck]

I can think of one major street in Montréal that divides two communities [[rich and poor) with a long fence. L'Acadie boulevard has this long fence on its western side with few points of egress. On the eastern side is the poor mostly immigrant neighborhood of Park Extension. It is very dense and maybe 80% immigrant from the indian sub-continent and Africa, but used to be working class Jewish Italian and Greek in waves during its history. Town of Mount Royal is the wealthy city on the western side with the leafy streets and the big houses partly hidden by the fence and a hedgerow. Boulevard de l'Acadie

http://goo.gl/maps/OUztz