Former Detroiter offers viewpoint in The New Yorker

[Kathleen]

The writer of this New Yorker piece is the son of a former work colleague of mine so I had to check it out.

When You've Had Detroit
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...g#slide_ss_0=1

Thoughts?

[Dumpling]

Nice piece - of course submitted by the lady that takes care of the picnics!

[Dan Wesson]

Nice piece - of course submitted by the lady that takes care of the picnics!

I know exactly the depression that Carol Anne speaks of. It becomes an ingrained part of you so much so that it becomes normal.

[sumas]

Hi Kathleen, glad to see you are back posting. Missed you.

I can relate to the bittersweet reminisces, there is truth in what was written. I particularly relate to his talking about the community being bonded which is so true in my neighborhood.

I laugh at the term, stayers, which describes me and my husband. I'll share that at our next street association meeting. We have first, second, third and forth generations that own here.

[Mackinaw]

I've felt the depression, too, and I also think there is a regional malaise too, both generally and in regards to how people think about the city. I find that the regional issues are getting notably better in the last 4-5 years though.

The author's story is important and worth reading, though it still falls prone to making common generalizations and spinning a sad poem out of a place that is more complex than such a poem can convey. The author doesn't, like many, actually say Detroit is dead-- and that's nice-- but the piece is still tinged with hopelessness, and hopelessness to me is a sin.

Topic for discussion-- it seems to me that many who get fed up with their Detroit neighborhood do not consider other neighborhoods, yet this city is huge, and some areas are simply safer and more livable than others. It seems like the flight decision, for many, is in part an emotional reaction based on the trends in one's immediate neighborhood. Do forumers think it's any different today than when the author moved out? Would a family on a declining but still livable block of Rosedale, worried about crime, move to Indian Village or Lafayette Park? Would many 25-35 year olds [[assuming they are employed) who grew up in a declining neighborhood strive to stay in the city and move to one of its growing/central areas?

I suppose it is very difficult to generalize, but I have virtually no barometer on these topics [[being from an inner suburb) and would like to start this discussion.

[313WX]

I've felt the depression, too, and I also think there is a regional malaise too, both generally and in regards to how people think about the city. I find that the regional issues are getting notably better in the last 4-5 years though.

The author's story is important and worth reading, though it still falls prone to making common generalizations and spinning a sad poem out of a place that is more complex than such a poem can convey. The author doesn't, like many, actually say Detroit is dead-- and that's nice-- but the piece is still tinged with hopelessness, and hopelessness to me is a sin.

Topic for discussion-- it seems to me that many who get fed up with their Detroit neighborhood do not consider other neighborhoods, yet this city is huge, and some areas are simply safer and more livable than others. It seems like the flight decision, for many, is in part an emotional reaction based on the trends in one's immediate neighborhood. Do forumers think it's any different today than when the author moved out? Would a family on a declining but still livable block of Rosedale, worried about crime, move to Indian Village or Lafayette Park? Would many 25-35 year olds [[assuming they are employed) who grew up in a declining neighborhood strive to stay in the city and move to one of its growing/central areas?

I suppose it is very difficult to generalize, but I have virtually no barometer on these topics [[being from an inner suburb) and would like to start this discussion.

It's really the feeling of why should you stick around in a place that, psychologically speaking, has put you and those around you through so much hell? In a word, it's essentially bitterness.

It would be like going back home to live with your parents who severely abused you as a child, even if they've supposedly cleaned up their acts in some ways.

[iheartthed]

I've felt the depression, too, and I also think there is a regional malaise too, both generally and in regards to how people think about the city. I find that the regional issues are getting notably better in the last 4-5 years though.

The author's story is important and worth reading, though it still falls prone to making common generalizations and spinning a sad poem out of a place that is more complex than such a poem can convey. The author doesn't, like many, actually say Detroit is dead-- and that's nice-- but the piece is still tinged with hopelessness, and hopelessness to me is a sin.

Topic for discussion-- it seems to me that many who get fed up with their Detroit neighborhood do not consider other neighborhoods, yet this city is huge, and some areas are simply safer and more livable than others. It seems like the flight decision, for many, is in part an emotional reaction based on the trends in one's immediate neighborhood. Do forumers think it's any different today than when the author moved out? Would a family on a declining but still livable block of Rosedale, worried about crime, move to Indian Village or Lafayette Park? Would many 25-35 year olds [[assuming they are employed) who grew up in a declining neighborhood strive to stay in the city and move to one of its growing/central areas?

I suppose it is very difficult to generalize, but I have virtually no barometer on these topics [[being from an inner suburb) and would like to start this discussion.

IAWTC

Another thing about Detroit is that the voices of people who've had some fucked up things happen are louder than those who've lived in the city and never had anything happen. I grew up in the city during the 1980s and 1990s and even after leaving the city -- and eventually the metro area -- I spend a substantial amount of time there. I've never so much as had a nickel taken from me in the city of Detroit. But having a non-eventful 30 year relationship with Detroit won't get me an op-ed in the New Yorker any time soon.

[Mackinaw]

IAWTC

I've never so much as had a nickel taken from me in the city of Detroit. But having a non-eventful 30 year relationship with Detroit won't get me an op-ed in the New Yorker any time soon.

Betcha a nickel the NY'er would publish a short letter saying the same thing, if you wrote it.

A strange and wonderful series of events has led to me spend my entire adult life to this point in another city almost as messed up, and probably even more scorned, than Detroit. My experience [[because I chose the right neighborhood) has been phenomenal and people are beyond quizzical when I relate it...I may as well be from mars. I realize the element of luck, and I realize how my current city, like Detroit, is criss-crossed by dividing lines between safe and unsafe, civilized and borderline uncivilized. But that latter point is an important one, and it has taught me that no city ought to be entirely written off, every city needs to be understood at a level much finer than its political boundaries and the headlines that are tagged to it.

To acknowledge cities, all cities, as habitats for living, breathing people as opposed to 'cesspools' and 'ghettos' and 'hoods' writ large would go a long way for improving our national policies toward cities and towards reducing the 'otherizing' which so defines American consciousness.

[sumas]

Several years back I posted Detroit is not for everyone and one does indeed need a strange sense of humor. A florist on Gratiot had a sandwich sign for years that said Bokays for sale, the hardware on Mack whose sign says Verity hardware or the corburburators shops. But then that level of error seems close to the bad editing at the News and the Freep these days.

I am sitting on my covered sweet porch typing and people watching. A very pleasant young man who lives further north of us has a bicycle baby buggy "trailer" that houses a very noisy boom box. Silliest thing I ever saw.

[nain rouge]

Articles like this illustrate just how badly this country needs to get its act together and take drastic steps to bust crime in urban neighborhoods. It never ceases to blow my mind how we can go to war in other countries and give away billions annually, but we can't find the willpower to save our own cities. To me, the ongoing problems in areas like Detroit or Chicago are major humanitarian and economic disasters that are costing us a great deal in ways that go way beyond just dollar signs.

[sumas]

It is true Detroiters accept a certain level of bull shit. I do shrug, I lost 3 snow shovels, 4 rakes and a standard spade shovel in the past few years. Mea culpa, I was careless.

However when we had a spate of crimes not typical to our community we showed up on mass for a meeting with our precinct captain. Supplied him with tons of info and arrests came quickly. Sadly not all neighbors are so responsible, some saw the home invasions and didn't call police cause they didn't want to get involved. Always a few cowards.

[XDetroitr]

Good article. Reminded me of my days in Palmer Park in the early '80s. Discussions at parties always came around to a crime antidote from all attendees. Muggings, burglaries, car break-ins... everyone had a story. Strange to think of now... but we were young and had a higher threshold for crime.

[softailrider]

It's really the feeling of why should you stick around in a place that, psychologically speaking, has put you and those around you through so much hell? In a word, it's essentially bitterness.

It would be like going back home to live with your parents who severely abused you as a child, even if they've supposedly cleaned up their acts in some ways.

I agree completely with what you wrote. I would think that the vast majority of people who move out of the city have no desire to live here again, or, find a safer part of the city to live in.

[FlyOnTheWall]

Articles like this illustrate just how badly this country needs to get its act together and take drastic steps to bust crime in urban neighborhoods.

I agree with you and give you a small example of how it works. Belle Isle, before and after the state took over. Stopping crime is the most important thing Detroit can do to turn the city around. It is not the cure-all, but is the MOST IMPORTANT!

[FormerDetroiter]

Greetings to everyone on DetroitYes. Like the author of the article I too am a former Detroiter. After having lived in Detroit for over 60 years I decided to enjoy my retirement elsewhere. Approximately two years ago I relocated to a quiet seaside community in Southern California. I grew up on the lower eastside [[Jefferson-Chalmers) and for many years lived in the Berry Subdivision. My last residence was in the Cass & Canfield area of Midtown. Leaving a place that I loved for so long was hard. But eventually the quality of my life became more important than my love for Detroit and I decided it was time to leave. I look forward to participating in this forum. Former Detroiter

[sumas]

Welcome FormerDetroiter to the forum. Thank you for not gloating you left. You certainly did live in some cool places. Jeff Chalmers has been called Creekside for years and although I never lived there I was very involved with non profits in that community. Berry Sub division awesome, Mid town on its cusp of its revival, fantastic

Personally I never fault anyone for leaving for whatever reason. Just those that gloat that they "escaped". It kind of comes down to bragging when they trash Detroit, I could afford to leave suckers, but you're stuck, kind of bragging. Never occurs to them that some people prefer to stay by choice.

Than of course the people who never lived here have fun trashing Detroit too. It is truly a form of bullying. Kick the city and keep kicking while we are troubled. Frankly to those folks I say, mind your own backyard, cause you've got plenty of problems too that just haven't surfaced or are kept quiet by the powers that be.

Actually the most heinous of crimes in the past several years have occurred in the burbs. Go figure.

[FormerDetroiter]

Thank you sumas for the warm welcome...

[sumas]

I know exactly the depression that Carol Anne speaks of. It becomes an ingrained part of you so much so that it becomes normal.

I would not call it depression but I will say that Detroiters have developed a callused shell. Back in late November I heard a neighbor got pushed into an alley, was beaten and robbed. I was horrified... that doesn't happen in MY neighborhood. Then I found out it was a known drug dealer and I thought so what. He doesn't deal in our hood so he sort of gets ignored by the community. His Dad Tiger, was home when we had a problem with home invasions that the police remedied. They thought no one was home but Tiger met them at the back door with a gun and they fled. I thought that was funny. Callus yes, Depressed no.

[313WX]

I know exactly the depression that Carol Anne speaks of. It becomes an ingrained part of you so much so that it becomes normal.

I think her take is interesting as well, in terms of Detroiters being clinically depressed.

Detroiters are a strange bunch. Once you get to know us, we're the friendliest, most down-to-earth people you'll ever meet. Yet, our hardened exteriors that we've built to protect us from all of the city's problems [[for example, you will go in many businesses and not see one employee smiling, or better yet, watch Hardcore Pawn) tends to scare people away.

There was a poster here, who is a college professor that now lives in Philadelphia, that went by the username "English." She also hypothesized that Detroiters suffer from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.

I would go as far as to hypothesize that suburbanites suffer from Post-Traumatic Embitterment Disorder. Folks like L. Brooks Patterson and Jim Fouts would be perfect examples of this. They're so bitter about Detroit's sad decline that they've allowed it to cloud their judgment when it comes to the progress of the region. They're not necessarily working on ways to improve the region as a whole, but to simply function in spite of Detroit.

[sumas]

I think her take is interesting as well, in terms of Detroiters being clinically depressed.

Detroiters are a strange bunch. Once you get to know us, we're the friendliest, most down-to-earth people you'll ever meet. Yet, our hardened exteriors that we've built to protect us from all of the city's problems [[for example, you will go in many businesses and not see one employee smiling, or better yet, watch Hardcore Pawn) tends to scare people away.

There was a poster here, who is a college professor that now lives in Philadelphia, that went by the username "English." She also hypothesized that Detroiters suffer from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.

I would go as far as to hypothesize that suburbanites suffer from Post-Traumatic Embitterment Disorder. Folks like L. Brooks Patterson and Jim Fouts would be perfect examples of this. They're so bitter about Detroit's sad decline that they've allowed it to cloud their judgment when it comes to the progress of the region. They're not necessarily working on ways to improve the region as a whole, but to simply function in spite of Detroit.

A witty observation. However in a TV interview Fouts did say his hood has problems as a staging area for drugs for the rich northern burbs. No doubt it is true. That is what I meant when I said watch your own backyards. Yes we are a strange bunch, friendly as hell. No doubt Detroit detractors would say Hell Fire.

[sumas]

I am close now to 98% of my business stays in Detroit. I don't patronize businesses however that are rude. One grocery store that got a lot of my business I did complain to. We drive neighbors without cars, shop for seniors etc. My husband uses a walker and rarely goes in anymore so the Chaldean cashiers would see me frequently with black men. They started to disrespect me [[a great Detroit line) I'd stand there while they yakked to each other in a foreign language and make me wait. Not hard to figure they were gossiping about me. I talked to the owner and said I wouldn't be back. Took me two months but for convenience sake I did return. Turns out they got canned. The cute part of the story is another Chaldean cashier said, Sue where have you been. I had started dying my hair and she noticed and on her own initiative bought me a hair dye and color she thought I should use. She held it all that time. Of course I reimbursed her promptly and even tipped her. That was so sweet of her.

[Cliffy]

IAWTC

Another thing about Detroit is that the voices of people who've had some fucked up things happen are louder than those who've lived in the city and never had anything happen. I grew up in the city during the 1980s and 1990s and even after leaving the city -- and eventually the metro area -- I spend a substantial amount of time there. I've never so much as had a nickel taken from me in the city of Detroit. But having a non-eventful 30 year relationship with Detroit won't get me an op-ed in the New Yorker any time soon.

Consider yourself lucky then.

[mwilbert]

I agree with you and give you a small example of how it works. Belle Isle, before and after the state took over. Stopping crime is the most important thing Detroit can do to turn the city around. It is not the cure-all, but is the MOST IMPORTANT!

1) Yes, reducing crime is very important, but it isn't something you can just do--crime is the result of multiple factors many of which the city can't control.The city needs to concentrate on making changes that it can make, some of which, like improving the management of the police department, may make the city safer.

2) Belle Isle is not a very good example. It wasn't particularly crime-ridden in the first place, and you can always move crime away from a particular neighborhood by increasing enforcement. It is even easier when that area has no residents.

[sumas]

1) Yes, reducing crime is very important, but it isn't something you can just do--crime is the result of multiple factors many of which the city can't control.The city needs to concentrate on making changes that it can make, some of which, like improving the management of the police department, may make the city safer.

2) Belle Isle is not a very good example. It wasn't particularly crime-ridden in the first place, and you can always move crime away from a particular neighborhood by increasing enforcement. It is even easier when that area has no residents.

Thank you for a calm reasoned approach. I particularly liked your point #2. If there was anything criminal it was how the city allowed it to deteriorate.

[FlyOnTheWall]

1) Yes, reducing crime is very important, but it isn't something you can just do--crime is the result of multiple factors many of which the city can't control.The city needs to concentrate on making changes that it can make, some of which, like improving the management of the police department, may make the city safer.

I don't believe that the police are the only, or even the most important part of reducing the crime in Detroit. It also will take a change in the judicial system. [[Consider the Utash beating and the mild sentence.) But the most important part is that the citizens of Detroit must insist on fair enforcement of all the laws. I read on another thread about what should happen to the three girls from GP or wherever and what Detroiters want to happen to them. I know that a lot of that tread was tongue-in-cheek but where was that hew and cry for the Utash beating.

2) Belle Isle is not a very good example. It wasn't particularly crime-ridden in the first place, and you can always move crime away from a particular neighborhood by increasing enforcement. It is even easier when that area has no residents.

I think your comment is a good one and do agree with you to a point. I said it was a small example and IMHO is a fair one. What family with small children wanted to take their family to Belle Isle before the state started enforcing the law in a strict but fair manner? That is the point I was trying to make. When the laws of Detroit start getting enforced in a strict and fair manner I think that some people will want to return to the city. Until then, not so much.