Are Detroit's casinos in trouble?

**iheartthed** · July-13-14, 08:08 AM

By the end of the summer Atlantic City will have lost a third of its casinos in less than a year's time. It looks like America's casino market is near saturation.

ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. [[AP) — Atlantic City's crumbling casino market disintegrated even further Saturday as the owners of the Trump Plaza casino said they expect to shut down in mid-September.

Trump Entertainment Resorts told The Associated Press that no final decision has been made on the Boardwalk casino. But the company said it expects the casino to close its doors Sept. 16.

Notices warning employees of the expected closing will go out to the casino's 1,000-plus employees Monday.

If Trump Plaza closes, Atlantic City could lose a third of its casinos and a quarter of its casino workforce in less than nine months. The Atlantic Club closed in January, the Showboat is closing next month and Revel might do likewise if a buyer can't be found in bankruptcy court.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5580366.html

**313WX** · July-13-14, 08:19 AM

There was a rumor not too long ago that MGM was trying to sell its stake in the casino here, as it wasn't making enough money.

Also, the reason the Indians sold Greektown to Dan Gilbert is because it was losing money.

But really, it amazes that the geniuses running things here want to open MORE casinos in this region while the 3 casinos we already have are struggling to remain in business between the increased competition from casinos that have opened in surrounding states and the overall poor state of Michigan's economy.

**Jimaz** · July-13-14, 08:34 AM

FWIW, from a few days ago:

MGM's big rebound reverses Detroit casinos' revenue losing streak

But no one is yet declaring the return of boom times.

I find it surprising that casinos can fail when the games are all in their favor. Of course there's a lot more involved than just the games.

**emu steve** · July-13-14, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

There was a rumor not too long ago that MGM was trying to sell its stake in the casino here, as it wasn't making enough money.

Also, the reason the Indians sold Greektown to Dan Gilbert is because it was losing money.

But really, it amazes that the geniuses running things here want to open MORE casinos in this region while the 3 casinos we already have are struggling to remain in business between the increased competition from casinos that have opened in surrounding states and the overall poor state of Michigan's economy.

If a company made annual profits of 1B, then 990M, then 980M, then 970M... it would be all black crepe and despair even though the profit is still quite handsome.

That is what I see here. Profits might go down [[or even up) but profits are still profit.

No one should go out of business while making profits, unless they are greedy and do dumb things to 'maximize' profits, usually called 'risk'.

**Dan Wesson** · July-13-14, 09:13 AM

Build 'em without the hotels and then money will be a problem no mo'.

Casino's and Resorts w/ a Casino different creatures they be.

**Cliffy** · July-13-14, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

If a company made annual profits of 1B, then 990M, then 980M, then 970M... it would be all black crepe and despair even though the profit is still quite handsome.

That is what I see here. Profits might go down [[or even up) but profits are still profit.

No one should go out of business while making profits, unless they are greedy and do dumb things to 'maximize' profits, usually called 'risk'.

Its pure greed. MGM still makes a ton of money. They pull in over $100 mil a month in revenue in Detroit and they are in a panic. Unless you're growing your profits by 10% a year in this country, you're a loser. Sad but true, thats the way Wall Street reacts.

**softailrider** · July-13-14, 10:09 AM

Around here people love to gamble. I don't see how they're losing money, every time I go [[not often) It's always jammed, can't find a seat at a $10.00 blackjack table. That's fine with me though, I figured out I'm better off keeping my money.

**401don** · July-13-14, 10:42 AM

As a Canadian I would like to see the Windsor Casino be successful but the Ontario gov't idiots that own it built a 2nd unneeded hotel tower guaranteeing the failure of the other 2 privately operated hotels on the river, the Hilton and the Radisson. They have been sold to the same guy, who has laid-off much of the staff. If one of the Detroit casinos were to close I hope its Motorcity, due to its location.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · July-13-14, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Around here people love to gamble. I don't see how they're losing money, every time I go [[not often) It's always jammed, can't find a seat at a $10.00 blackjack table. That's fine with me though, I figured out I'm better off keeping my money.

I hear ya, most people come back to visit their money.

Casino's are rigged anyway. They let somebody win big every now and then. There always will be way more losers than winners.

**emu steve** · July-13-14, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

Its pure greed. MGM still makes a ton of money. They pull in over $100 mil a month in revenue in Detroit and they are in a panic. Unless you're growing your profits by 10% a year in this country, you're a loser. Sad but true, thats the way Wall Street reacts.

Agree completely.

That is the problem with our corporate shareholder model of business ownership. [[insert poke at Mitt Romney here).

Henry Ford I didn't have to answer to 'greedy' shareholders or Wall Street analysts. [[I assume in those days the Ford family had controlling interest - I forgot the evolution of ownership of Fords).

I learned more about American business running rats in a Skinner box [[where the lever press for those goodies, food pellets, and they pressed pretty damn fast) than I did as an undergrad in business school.

**rb336** · July-13-14, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Henry Ford I didn't have to answer to 'greedy' shareholders or Wall Street analysts. [[I assume in those days the Ford family had controlling interest - I forgot the evolution of ownership of Fords).

I think, through their preferred stock, the Ford family still has, essentially, the controlling interest

**rb336** · July-13-14, 11:53 AM

This is the second Trump casino to go belly-up. the various tribal casinos have really eaten into AC's viability.

Detroit's casinos aren't losing money - I think even Greektown is improving in that area. I suspect that as the new Cobo continues to see their bookings increase, all three will see improvement. The Hollywood Casino in Toledo probably hurts a bit by pulling Downriver & NW Ohio customers, and some outstate tribal casinos also hurt.

Vegas bigwigs are still positive on Detroit's casinos - MGM is still investing [[Detroit is still one of their most profitable operations), Caesar's is Gilbert's partner and supposedly Wynn has made inquiries to Motor City. They see the downturns as expected due to the economic issues and increased competition

**Zacha341** · July-13-14, 01:00 PM

Hmmm, did not know that, but two hotels seemed excessive anyway. Back when I was a gambler, I recall Caesars Windsor casino was quite generous in giving their rooms as comps -- I stayed in both hotels a couple of times. Alot of people don't want the hassle of customs entering Canada, though I rarely had any trouble.

The demise of Motor City would woundn't faze me... I here they have their slot machines turned down so low winnings are now rare from when they first opened. The cage staff is bare minimal at all of local casino joints --- but that's ok as few are winning to have any money to collect at the cage!

Originally Posted by 401don

As a Canadian I would like to see the Windsor Casino be successful but the Ontario gov't idiots that own it built a 2nd unneeded hotel tower guaranteeing the failure of the other 2 privately operated hotels on the river, the Hilton and the Radisson. They have been sold to the same guy, who has laid-off much of the staff. If one of the Detroit casinos were to close I hope its Motorcity, due to its location.

**Zacha341** · July-13-14, 01:10 PM

Yes, the casino creeps will never get enough 'heads in beds' to justify their rooms. They start off making noise about giving rooms as comps which certainly doesn't make them any money. And then the silly hotels cannot stand on their own feet and this is not a resort town.

Originally Posted by Dan Wesson

Build 'em without the hotels and then money will be a problem no mo'.

Casino's and Resorts w/ a Casino different creatures they be.

**Zacha341** · July-13-14, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

It looks like America's casino market is near saturation.

I think EVENTUALLY it's a bit tiresome to flush ones money down the toilet and pretend it's not a problem...

...

**emu steve** · July-13-14, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

This is the second Trump casino to go belly-up. the various tribal casinos have really eaten into AC's viability.

Gee, maybe Trump could have done for America what he did for Atlantic City.

**ABetterDetroit** · July-13-14, 04:03 PM

Only stopped in greektown last night to use the restroom and the casino was completely packed. So I would say no, they will be fine. Sure was a whole lot of people downtown last night with no major event going on.

**Zacha341** · July-13-14, 04:44 PM

I think GT will be the casino lest standing if it gets really tight. It almost has a festive feel at times, compared to the land of the 'walking dead' of the other two Detroit casino's.

**313WX** · July-13-14, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

I think GT will be the casino lest standing if it gets really tight. It almost has a festive feel at times, compared to the land of the 'walking dead' of the other two Detroit casino's.

While Greektown has an overall better atmosphere to it, in terms of the gambling experience, I hear it's pretty "ghetto" compared to Motor City Casino and especially MGM Grand.

I guess it depends on what you're looking for in a Casino and its surroundings.

**Spartan** · July-13-14, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

While Greektown has an overall better atmosphere to it, in terms of the gambling experience, I hear it's pretty "ghetto" compared to Motor City Casino and especially MGM Grand.

I guess it depends on what you're looking for in a Casino and its surroundings.

Yeah, Greektown is a bit more of a "party" and tends to draw pretty decent crowds. People go there because it's a good time. People that want to really gamble usually hit the other two. You tell me which one you think is more successful at raking in profit

**313WX** · July-13-14, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

You tell me which one you think is more successful at raking in profit

Well, MGM Grand was the only casino that saw an increase in revenue from June 2013.

**Goose** · July-13-14, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Gee, maybe Trump could have done for America what he did for Atlantic City.

thank god instead we got Obama to do for us what he did for Chicago....

**IrishSpartan** · July-14-14, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Agree completely.

That is the problem with our corporate shareholder model of business ownership. [[insert poke at Mitt Romney here).

Henry Ford I didn't have to answer to 'greedy' shareholders or Wall Street analysts. [[I assume in those days the Ford family had controlling interest - I forgot the evolution of ownership of Fords).

I learned more about American business running rats in a Skinner box [[where the lever press for those goodies, food pellets, and they pressed pretty damn fast) than I did as an undergrad in business school.

Ford Motor Company didn't go public until 1956. William Clay Ford Sr. was against the public offering of stock. Henry Ford II was the one who in the family who pushed to turn Ford into a public company so they could become more like General Motors, which was his ambition in life.

**emu steve** · July-14-14, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Goose

thank god instead we got Obama to do for us what he did for Chicago....

But, did Obama ever own Chicago casinos? Trump owns casinos including a number which had financial problems - didn't some have problems in 2008?

Back to your comment:

Thank God we didn't get another Hoover-ish Republican.

I believe most economists believe that the policies adopted back then led to the deepening depression. It didn't have to be that way...

Some may not like the Fed's 'easy money' policies and stimulus to put a 'floor' under the economy but we did avoid a depression and have had a recovery.

Our 'only' problem today is that during the past decade [[2000-2009) Corporate America 'shipped' about 5 - 6M manufacturing jobs elsewhere and we have only developed about 500K new ones. The jobs problem today is mostly a blue collar jobs recession. Yes, Corporate America proudly waived American flags and stuck to American workers and never had the conscience to realize that America and American workers are one. You hurt American workers and you hurt America.

IF we had a few million of those jobs [[back), the job market would be reasonably tight and wages rising nicely.

Corporate America loves to export jobs to low wage countries which keeps costs of good and services [[yes, your technical support guy in India) low and profits high.

**Chicago48** · July-14-14, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

There was a rumor not too long ago that MGM was trying to sell its stake in the casino here, as it wasn't making enough money.

Also, the reason the Indians sold Greektown to Dan Gilbert is because it was losing money.

But really, it amazes that the geniuses running things here want to open MORE casinos in this region while the 3 casinos we already have are struggling to remain in business between the increased competition from casinos that have opened in surrounding states and the overall poor state of Michigan's economy.

"Geniuses" in quotes. The same is happening in Illinois. It's called cannabilizing businesses.