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  1. #26

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    This is only part of the puzzle. Companies locate to where the talent is, plain and simple. If you don't have a qualified work force, the jobs will not come.

    Quote Originally Posted by motz View Post
    Stop focusing on how many jobs someone will bring, and focus on attracting and developing an infrastructure for different industries. The jobs will come eventually.

  2. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjlj View Post
    This is only part of the puzzle. Companies locate to where the talent is, plain and simple. If you don't have a qualified work force, the jobs will not come.
    Companies will locate where they can be most profitable, plain and simple. If you need a highly educated work force, you go to Austin because tax breaks + workforce. You need a workforce you can pay $15/hr to make cars? South, tax breaks + people who salivate over that kind of wage. You're simplifying things for sake of proving your point, tax breaks highly influence decisions for location in any field.

  3. #28

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    There are plenty of tax breaks and very cheap land available for companies to move to the city of Detroit proper. Where are all the jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by motz View Post
    Companies will locate where they can be most profitable, plain and simple. If you need a highly educated work force, you go to Austin because tax breaks + workforce. You need a workforce you can pay $15/hr to make cars? South, tax breaks + people who salivate over that kind of wage. You're simplifying things for sake of proving your point, tax breaks highly influence decisions for location in any field.

  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjlj View Post
    There are plenty of tax breaks and very cheap land available for companies to move to the city of Detroit proper. Where are all the jobs?
    1. City run by a bunch of kleptocrats.
    2. Incompetent and non-responsive bureaucrats.
    3. Militant unionism.

  5. #30

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    Anyone who wants to can say they are against tax breaks can as much as they like. But it doesn't change the simple fact:

    THAT is how the game is played everywhere in this country.

    Not playing the same game that everyone else is playing only ensures that you will not be playing at all. Can anyone in Michigan or Detroit afford to NOT compete for jobs? Sounds kinda dumb to me, it defies logic. Exceptions to the haters who want this area to be the most economically depressed, FUBAR place and rejoice in it's failings or the folks who think that some sort of great American socialist society can be built right here for the first time ever.
    Last edited by ABetterDetroit; July-11-14 at 06:58 PM.

  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit View Post
    Anyone who wants to can say they are against tax breaks can as much as they like. But it doesn't change the simple fact:

    THAT is how the game is played everywhere in this country.

    Not playing the same game that everyone else is playing only ensures that you will not be playing at all. Can anyone in Michigan or Detroit afford to NOT compete for jobs? Sounds kinda dumb to me, it defies logic. Exceptions to the haters who want this area to be the most economically depressed, FUBAR place and rejoice in it's failings or the folks who think that some sort of great American socialist society can be built right here for the first time ever.

    It's not always a game worth playing and competing for jobs doesn't necessary entail huge tax breaks. Do you really think Mike Illitch would have left and taken the Red Wings to another city? Do you think Marathon would have overlooked the huge advantages of adding to their existing facilities in Detroit (Right on a major shipping corridor and and so close to their Canadian crude) and instead went elsewhere? If they actually had decided to expand elsewhere would that really have been such a bad thing for the city? (We likely wouldn't be dealing with the huge petcoke issue).

    I'm 100% opposed to tax breaks that are designed to lure businesses to an area or to keep them from "Leaving". It's blackmail, corporate welfare and pits city against city, state against state and often just brings temporary benefits to the community. These tax breaks are also a breeding ground for bribery and abuse by public officials and in the end the taxpayers are the ones that lose.
    Last edited by Johnnny5; July-11-14 at 08:21 PM.

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermod View Post
    1. City run by a bunch of kleptocrats.
    2. Incompetent and non-responsive bureaucrats.
    3. Militant unionism.
    May I give this a big AMEN? It is getting better, but just a little.

  8. #33

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    Often overlooked is that for a city to enforce residency requirements for jobs also means the city becomes a bureaucracy of oversight and irritation. I've dealt with CoD's 'contract compliance' department on quote enforcement. Its a royal pain in the ass. Red tape will bury you. Forms required on every employee, where they live. Testimonial documents on residency. Collected. Signed. Delivered to city before they will do anything. Then bureaucrats take weeks to review. Until they do, nothing can be done. Money doesn't flow.

    You do this, and it won't kill the city -- but it absolutely will hurt.

    City council, and the city administration need to focus on being the best city possible. Not a farm of complex rules.

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnny5 View Post
    It's not always a game worth playing and competing for jobs doesn't necessary entail huge tax breaks. Do you really think Mike Illitch would have left and taken the Red Wings to another city? Do you think Marathon would have overlooked the huge advantages of adding to their existing facilities in Detroit (Right on a major shipping corridor and and so close to their Canadian crude) and instead went elsewhere? If they actually had decided to expand elsewhere would that really have been such a bad thing for the city? (We likely wouldn't be dealing with the huge petcoke issue).

    I'm 100% opposed to tax breaks that are designed to lure businesses to an area or to keep them from "Leaving". It's blackmail, corporate welfare and pits city against city, state against state and often just brings temporary benefits to the community. These tax breaks are also a breeding ground for bribery and abuse by public officials and in the end the taxpayers are the ones that lose.
    Oh yes without hesitation. If mike had a deal in his pocket that gave a great deal on the factory building and naming rights, complete control of parking and concessions. Something like 96 and 275 he would have jumped at it. He has no loyalty to anything but the best deal. A devoloper for Detroit? His track record has proven he is not. He tried to fly close to the sun 2 decades ago and his wings were burned off by corruption and his and theirs incompetence.

    Marathon has other refineries, they would have shopped. In their line of work sending it down the pipe is cheap. It's the margins that are huge. If you really believe that government can dictate terms to big business you need to read more. It is the exception not the rule. Business leaves scorched earth at will if they think it works for them.

    If you are 100% against tax breaks for employers then you support burger king, McDonald's, and party stores to move your economy forward because almost everyone else is making deals. You said it yourself " state against state" if you aren't doing it then your losing all the time. We've lost, they carried half our industry away from us because we were to slow to learn how to play. How has that worked out? We have a shit load of unemployed that's for sure. The last question remains are we going to just let them take the other half?
    P.S I enjoy a good debate, and appreciate not having hate involved, on these boards that can be a refreshing change sometimes.

  10. #35

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    Only sucker cities offer tax breaks like candy at Halloween. Of the best performing cities in the state, only a few offer major tax abatements and that's largely because they are company towns where a single corporate entity has inordinate say over the local political process - see Midland (Dow) and Portage (Pharmacia and Stryker). Otherwise, those cities largely avoid the tax abatement scam by focusing on providing high quality services by maintaining the community's tax base. Even places like Auburn Hills that used to give them to everyone who asked have scaled back their abatement programs because they found that the benefits of attracting new development and jobs didn't offset the impact on their tax base and how that hurt the city's ability to provide services to the rest of the business community. If your city is relying on tax abatements to grow the economy, you're guaranteed to fail. Communities that thrive do so by finding businesses that can succeed without relying on government handouts. Those are the businesses that will stay. Those that demand tax abatements will be the first to leave town when the gravy train stops running.

  11. #36

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    Strongly agree. And how do those businesses that don't rely on tax breaks survive? They survive on a qualified, educated, and talented work force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novine View Post
    Only sucker cities offer tax breaks like candy at Halloween. Of the best performing cities in the state, only a few offer major tax abatements and that's largely because they are company towns where a single corporate entity has inordinate say over the local political process - see Midland (Dow) and Portage (Pharmacia and Stryker). Otherwise, those cities largely avoid the tax abatement scam by focusing on providing high quality services by maintaining the community's tax base. Even places like Auburn Hills that used to give them to everyone who asked have scaled back their abatement programs because they found that the benefits of attracting new development and jobs didn't offset the impact on their tax base and how that hurt the city's ability to provide services to the rest of the business community. If your city is relying on tax abatements to grow the economy, you're guaranteed to fail. Communities that thrive do so by finding businesses that can succeed without relying on government handouts. Those are the businesses that will stay. Those that demand tax abatements will be the first to leave town when the gravy train stops running.

  12. #37

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    Washington, DC, July 14, 2014 - The Obama Administration is urging Congress and the Senate to pass sweeping legislation that will provide new benefits for many Americans: The Americans With No Abilities Act (AWNAA). President Obama said he will sign it as soon as it hits his desk.

    The AWNAA is being hailed as a major legislative goal by advocates of the millions of Americans who lack any real skills or ambition.

    “Roughly 50 percent of Americans do not possess the competence and drive necessary to carve out a meaningful role for themselves in society,” said California Senator Barbara Boxer. “We can no longer stand by and allow People of Inability to be ridiculed and passed over. With this legislation, employers will no longer be able to grant special favors to a small group of workers, simply because they have some idea of what they are doing.”

    In a Capitol Hill press conference, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D) and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D) pointed to the success of the U.S. Postal Service, which has a long-standing policy of providing opportunity without regard to performance. Approximately 74 percent of postal employees lack any job skills, making this agency the single largest U.S. employer of Persons of Inability.

    Private-sector industries with good records of non-discrimination against the Inept include retail sales (72%), the airline industry (68%), and home improvement 'warehouse' stores (65%).. At the state government level, the Department of Motor Vehicles also has an excellent record of hiring Persons of Inability (a whopping 83%).

    Under The Americans With No Abilities Act, more than 25 million 'middle man' positions will be created, with important-sounding titles but little real responsibility, thus providing an illusory sense of purpose and performance.

    Mandatory non-performance-based raises and promotions will be given so as to guarantee upward mobility for even the most inept employees. The legislation provides substantial tax breaks to corporations that promote a significant number of Persons of Inability into middle-management positions and gives a tax credit to small and medium-sized businesses that agree to hire one clueless worker for every two talented hires.

    Finally, the AWNAA contains tough new measures to make it more difficult to discriminate against the Non-abled, banning, for example, discriminatory interview questions such as, “Do you have any skills or experience that relate to this job?”

    “As a Non-abled person, I can't be expected to keep up with people who have something going for them,” said Ken Cox, who lost his position as a lug-nut twister at the GM plant in Flint, Michigan, due to his inability to remember “righty tightey, lefty loosey,”' “This new law should be real good for people like me,” Cox added. With the passage of this bill, Cox and millions of other untalented citizens will finally see a light at the end of the tunnel.

    Said Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL): 'As a Senator with no abilities, I believe the same privileges that elected officials enjoy ought to be extended to every American with no abilities. It is our duty as lawmakers to provide each and every American citizen, regardless of his or her inadequacy, with some sort of space to take up in this great nation and a good salary for doing so.'

  13. #38

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    Senator Boxer is an idiot.
    We can no longer stand by and allow People of Inability to be ridiculed and passed over.

    Doesn't she realize that UC Berkeley provides plenty of dignity to People of Inability? They've passes a campus rule against ridiculing Inability. No more commencement speeches by anyone who has ever had a job. What more can Sen. Boxer want?
    Last edited by Wesley Mouch; July-12-14 at 06:18 PM.

  14. #39

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    Very funny. Here we go back to The Onion again.

  15. #40

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    While we're hanging out in lala land, here's a more recent one:

    Humanity Surprised It Still Hasn’t Figured Out Better Alternative To Letting Power-Hungry Assholes Decide Everything
    Billions worldwide agreed that, by this point in human civilization, they would have expected a better process than entrusting all their political, commercial, and social decisions to vindictive, self-absorbed fuckers....

    “Boy, maybe we shouldn’t do that anymore,” Rao added. “Anyone have any better ideas?”

  16. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
    And requiring to use Detroit residents is going to help? What about when there aren't enough qualified Detroit residents? And what would be stopping them from leaving the city once they get a decent paycheck?
    Wow, you went right for the false, unsubstantiated quote machine. Just stop these trolling comments.

  17. #42

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    The incentives wars is one of the worst uses of public money that has been perpetuated by the corporate hierarchy that I can think of.

    Amen. Business interests are expert at playing cities and states off against each other, and using workers as pawns. I have seen businesses get tax breaks for only a promise to "save" existing jobs.

    Proposal 1 is the latest tactic. It will give business a free ride on the personal property tax everywhere in the state, and, supposedly, replace the revenue cities lose by distributing 2 percentage points of the 6 percent state use tax.

    First issue: that portion of the use tax is already being used by Lansing to fund something, probably something that we residents benefit from. When that money gets redirected to the cities, it will be coming out of something else, but Prop 1 advocates do not say what.

    Second issue: from the numbers I have seen, in inflation adjusted dollars, Michigan use tax revenue has been declining since 2000. So what happens to city services when their cost of providing services goes up, but they are stuck with a fixed percentage of a declining revenue stream to pay those costs? Same thing we have seen with road maintenance, where maintenance costs rise, but the fuel tax revenue to pay for it has been declining.

    As usual, Prop 1 advocates claim "jobs will be created", a whole 15,000, out of a Michigan labor force of 4.7 Million.

    We'll never notice the "jobs created" if any. What we will notice is more cities in financial trouble, more city services cut, and, probably, higher taxes on our homes, to pay for business' free ride.

  18. #43

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    No clue where Hermod got his stats on "unqualified workers" but must say our postal worker is totally incompetent. As retired disabled seniors and avowed porch sitters I watch that idiot do nothing. I might get mail once or twice a week. When she shows up she quite often parks, eat lunch yaks on her cell phone and never leaves her van. If she does she visits the local drug dealer. Lots of important mail never got delivered but could care less if the junk mail does not get delivered. Sad really.

    On a positive note (sort of) we have plenty of adult talented/educated neighbors that make crap money. I won't bore the forum again with extolling our neighbors virtues and talents. A few have created start up businesses which of course we support with our business

    My biggest concern is our youth which are getting serious crap education, charter or public. So many neighbors invest time and effort in our area kids but we are just a drop in the bucket.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by sumas View Post
    No clue where Hermod got his stats on "unqualified workers" but must say our postal worker is totally incompetent....
    They're fictional stats that originated in that Onion satire article.

    Sorry to hear about your letter carrier. Ours is so diligent that he stopped me to make sure I was authorized to pick up my mail! I was grateful because there was an absentee ballot that day and there have been rumors of mail theft in the area.

  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimaz View Post
    They're fictional stats that originated in that Onion satire article.

    Sorry to hear about your letter carrier. Ours is so diligent that he stopped me to make sure I was authorized to pick up my mail! I was grateful because there was an absentee ballot that day and there have been rumors of mail theft in the area.
    I have had the same super excellent letter carrier for 13 years. He is great and worries if I don't clean out my mail box on the front gate every day. On the other hand, the window clerks seem to delight in closing windows when the line is getting longer.

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimaz View Post
    They're fictional stats that originated in that Onion satire article.

    Sorry to hear about your letter carrier. Ours is so diligent that he stopped me to make sure I was authorized to pick up my mail! I was grateful because there was an absentee ballot that day and there have been rumors of mail theft in the area.
    Me too regarding mail delivery. Can honestly say though that every place we ever lived Mail carriers were stellar people. This ones a real douzy. A few years back I posted a thread on how she was trying to beat me up, old story now and too much detail to repeat.

    Actually I was saddened that Gistok apparently occasionally doubts my veracity. I swear I coined the phrase, I can't make this shit up. I write history articles and history books and have no knack for fiction. Just weird shit does happen to us all the time. Wish it didn't.

    I am totally sincere in saying there are plenty of amazing qualified people in the city at large. I am also sincere in saying our education system is completely failing our youth. These kids are not dumb.

  22. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by sumas View Post
    ...I am also sincere in saying our education system is completely failing our youth. These kids are not dumb.
    What's your approach then to education? Do you thus favor charters... warts an all... or do you think the old way of just DPS was serving Detroit youth better?

    And just to pull back to topic... I'd rather council worked on school reforms than wasting energy scoring populist political points by meddling with hiring rules.

  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    What's your approach then to education? Do you thus favor charters... warts an all... or do you think the old way of just DPS was serving Detroit youth better?

    And just to pull back to topic... I'd rather council worked on school reforms than wasting energy scoring populist political points by meddling with hiring rules.
    Sorry Wes wrote an extensive response but it got dropped and to lazy to re write.

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