Detroit Still Tearing Down Usable Historic Buildings for Parking Lots/ W. Vernor

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 12:48 PM

Quite early this morning I witnessed a crew dismantling a building on the north side of West Vernor Hwy. just across the street from Holy Redeemer. The block was intact until that moment. The building was brick and restorable.

I understand that the owner of Nice Price, a discounter in an old S. S. Kresge building next door, wanted to create a parking lot. The Southwest Detroit Business Association opposed the idea - but, nevertheless, the building is now gone.

Fifty years of perfectly adequate street parking should have demonstrated that a very narrow parking lot is not necessary.

Now there is a gaping hole in an historic streetscape dating to about 1900, like a missing tooth. The discount store could be gone tomorrow. The hole will not ever be filled [[in my experience.)

What are they thinking???

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

What are they thinking???

They're obviously thinking they want their retail to be profitable.

The fact is that the Vernor strip is dying, and really the only successful retail is that with on-site parking. The customers are coming in cars, so if you don't provide parking, you aren't goint to get the customers.

If you look at the "intact" blocks along the Vernor strip, they have the highest vacancies, and the most marginal retail. In contrast, if you look at the suburban strip-mall blocks, they have few vacancies. It might be bad planning, but it's good business.

The bigger problem is that the Mexican population is moving south and west and into the suburbs. The real Mexicantown now is Springwells, not Vernor. If you're a Mexican merchant along Vernor, you will need to draw customers from places like Lincoln Park and Taylor [[where Mexicans are now buying homes).

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 12:54 PM

???

Some numbers, plz, to justify this opinion that belies what the eyes of this nearby home-owner see daily?

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

???

Some numbers, plz, to justify this opinion that belies what the eyes of this nearby home-owner see daily?

What specific numbers are you looking for? You don't believe Mexicans are leaving the area, or you believe customers aren't coming by car, or you believe that the "old-time" retail doesn't have marginal businesses these days?

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 01:01 PM

Let's start with "Mexicans leaving the area."

For sure, as people get a little more money, many relocate to the suburbs. But it sure looks to me like their home are being filled by - more Hispanics!

Could you demonstrate that the Hispanic population of SW Detroit is falling and not being replaced?

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 01:04 PM

Then, please demonstrate that "customers to Vernor are coming by car - but make sure to include a comparison to the numbers of customers arriving by car say about 15 or ten or even 5 years ago.

I guess that the number of automobile-arriving customers grew after the bike lane was introduced to meet the needs of the younger crown who eschew cars?

**nain rouge** · July-01-14, 01:04 PM

Bham1982, he wants numbers that confirm that the businesses in the strip malls along Vernor perform than the other businesses.

The real problem, probably, is that the neighborhoods near Vernor are way less populated today vs. when those strips were built [[http://media.mlive.com/news/detroit_...b19899e459.jpg ). It only makes sense that the retail strip would also lose density.

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Let's start with "Mexicans leaving the area."

For sure, as people get a little more money, many relocate to the suburbs. But it sure looks to me like their home are being filled by - more Hispanics!

Could you demonstrate that the Hispanic population of SW Detroit is falling and not being replaced?

Absolutely. The U.S. Census has this data, and the NY Times has a handy map to look at racial changes over time, by race.

Take a look at the SW Detroit Census tracts closest to "original Mexicantown" [[Bagley area), and then along Vernor. You'll see Hispanic population decline in all these tracts.

Then take a look at the fringe neighborhoods Detroit, right near the city line [[Springwells). You'll see Hispanic population growth in all these tracts.

Finally take a look at Hispanic growth in the downriver suburbs. You'll see an explosion of Hispanic population.

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Bham1982, he wants numbers that confirm that the businesses in the strip malls along Vernor perform than the other businesses.

Obviously I don't hold the accounting ledgers for the businesses along Vernor. But I do know that having on-site parking is an enormous advantage for businesses in Detroit, for a variety of fairly obvious reasons, but primarily safety and convenience.

**motz** · July-01-14, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Then, please demonstrate that "customers to Vernor are coming by car - but make sure to include a comparison to the numbers of customers arriving by car say about 15 or ten or even 5 years ago.

I guess that the number of automobile-arriving customers grew after the bike lane was introduced to meet the needs of the younger crown who eschew cars?

He'll say "WELL LOOK AT BIRMINGHAM" without providing actual numbers.

The reason they dismantled the building is the ever-perpetual myth that a parking lot is required in order to have a business. It's been going around for decades around here, and we really need to tell businesses that the reason why their traffic is low is because they are a mediocre business, not because they don't have any empty concrete lot with spray paint next door.

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by motz

The reason they dismantled the building is the ever-perpetual myth that a parking lot is required in order to have a business. It's been going around for decades around here, and we really need to tell businesses that the reason why their traffic is low is because they are a mediocre business, not because they don't have any empty concrete lot with spray paint next door.

Pretty ridiculous claim, in that there is no intact business area anywhere in Metro Detroit that lacks easy and convenient parking.

If parking were not a prerequisite for retail vitaility, then why is there no such example anywhere in the tri-county area?

**1953** · July-01-14, 01:23 PM

Urban commercial districts without gap toothed design are much more alluring that urban commercial districts with surface parking lots, IMO. I'm with the original poster. Its not fair to compare urban and suburban commercial districts, because they are two very different type of districts.

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by 1953

Its not fair to compare urban and suburban commercial districts, because they are two very different type of districts.

In the traditional context, very true. But, in Metro Detroit, there is no distinction. A Detroit business needs parking every bit as much as a Rochester Hills business needs parking.

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 01:33 PM

Bham pontificated:

"Real Mexicantown is Springwells, not Vernor."

BUT is this photo [[and the Parade) taken on Springwells or West Vernor:

**1953** · July-01-14, 01:34 PM

Why is Detroit the exception, Bham 1982?

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 01:46 PM

says Bham: "If parking were not a prerequisite for retail vitaility, then why is there no such example anywhere in the tri-county area?" Mis-stating the issue, of course.

Are you blind? Grosse Pointe does not put holes in the streetscape on Mack for parking lots. You have to pay to park behind the street in a parking structure.

Does Downtown Rochester deliberately create gaps in that historic streetscape for parking?

What about Ann Arbor? Does AA allow building owners to buy up perfectly good buildings next door in Kerrytown to demolish for parking?

How about Royal Oak?

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Bham pontificated:

"Real Mexicantown is Springwells, not Vernor."

BUT is this photo [[and the Parade) taken on Springwells or West Vernor:

Geez, you got me there. Obviously a random internet photo is more definitive than the decennial Census...

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Are you blind? Grosse Pointe does not put holes in the streetscape on Mack for parking lots. You have to pay to park behind the street in a parking structure.

Does Downtown Rochester deliberately create gaps in that historic streetscape for parking?

What about Ann Arbor? Does AA allow building owners to buy up perfectly good buildings next door in Kerrytown to demolish for parking?

How about Royal Oak?

None of these areas have extensive retail, Ann Arbor isn't even the tri-county area, and all these areas have abundant free or cheap parking. So really silly or irrelevent examples.

**1953** · July-01-14, 02:01 PM

Grosse Pointe is all retail in its urban commercial strip...

**Eber Brock Ward** · July-01-14, 02:05 PM

yeah, i think that the whole clark park/vernor before it splits area is losing [[lost?) its mexicanness the same way that warrendale lost its polishness, or corktown lost its irish and malteseishness.

**nain rouge** · July-01-14, 02:30 PM

Bham's right in the sense that so long as population density continues to decrease in Detroit, suburban-style shopping districts will be increasingly successful. Mack in the Grosse Pointes does OK because of moderate population density [[most Grosse Pointes have around 5,000 people per square mile) and high wealth [[poking around on City Data, many areas have a median household income of well over $100,000). While the neighborhoods around Vernor have higher density [[about double near Vernor & Clark, for example), household incomes tend to hover around $30,000. Add in significantly higher crime in Detroit and it's easy to see why Mack is doing better in the Grosse Pointes.

**softailrider** · July-01-14, 05:06 PM

Just leave Duly's alone, I'm ok with anything else.

**313WX** · July-01-14, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Bham's right in the sense that so long as population density continues to decrease in Detroit, suburban-style shopping districts will be increasingly successful. Mack in the Grosse Pointes does OK because of moderate population density [[most Grosse Pointes have around 5,000 people per square mile) and high wealth [[poking around on City Data, many areas have a median household income of well over $100,000). While the neighborhoods around Vernor have higher density [[about double near Vernor & Clark, for example), household incomes tend to hover around $30,000. Add in significantly higher crime in Detroit and it's easy to see why Mack is doing better in the Grosse Pointes.

Exactly. It's called shrinking pains.

Detroit's turning into Atlanta before our very eyes...

**wolverine** · July-01-14, 05:51 PM

This is a city of Detroit issue, not the business to single them out. Owners will do whatever they need to do to get customers in the door, but ultimately the city approved the demo permits and allowed the lot to go in.

If they have some comprehensive strategy to save commercial buildings and homes from being merged into other parcels for parking...well then it appears that's not happening.

**nain rouge** · July-01-14, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

If they have some comprehensive strategy to save commercial buildings and homes from being merged into other parcels for parking...well then it appears that's not happening.

What should the city do with all of the abandoned properties? Nitpick about suburban-style improvements? At the end of the day, it's not up to the city to save its urban form, but us. We need to move in the houses. We need to buy the commercial buildings and open businesses. Without enough people and demand, the city's hands are tied.