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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    2. Nobody has provided one piece of evidence to prove there is an influx of yuppy residents to these neighborhoods. The drivers license has nothing to do with census or independent data. Furthermore, it's a misdemeanor to not change your address. I've never been in a business meeting where I closed the deal without real data. Anecdotal optics and excuses (e.g. drivers licenses aren't changed??!) don't pass the smell test.
    Someone believes there's now enough demand to renovate the Strathmoor apartments and Broderick Tower (both of which are huge) that have been vacant for years, for one.

    Also, Whole Foods wouldn't have opened down there (even with the generous tax credits) if there wouldn't be enough customer demand.

  2. #27
    e.p.3 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    Someone believes there's now enough demand to renovate the Strathmoor apartments and Broderick Tower (both of which are huge) that have been vacant for years, for one.

    Also, Whole Foods wouldn't have opened down there (even with the generous tax credits) if there wouldn't be enough customer demand.
    Demand != subsidies to build something != influx of yuppies.

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    1. A yuppy is a young, urban profession. You know, 22 to 40 (?), college degree, real job.

    2. Nobody has provided one piece of evidence to prove there is an influx of yuppy residents to these neighborhoods. The drivers license has nothing to do with census or independent data. Furthermore, it's a misdemeanor to not change your address. I've never been in a business meeting where I closed the deal without real data. Anecdotal optics and excuses (e.g. drivers licenses aren't changed??!) don't pass the smell test.
    I'm apprehensive about responding to you because in the dozen or so posts you have posted I can already tell you hold the antagonistic and old school suburb vs. city views.

    You say anecdotal evidence doesn't pass your smell test yet you give one in your initial post. The we give examples of the Broderick Tower, Whole Foods, The Auburn, and you disregard them.

    Go downtown on an average week day and tell me no one is down there. 5-6 years ago Woodward was still dead at 1 pm, I would beg to differ now. Many of the Merchant Row buildings are being used now. 1528 Woodward, Moosejaw, DIME, D:Hive, Somerset sometimes are truly pioneers along that strip. There is an influx of residents and workers that hasn't been officially documented because 2010 Census was too close to the turning point.

  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    Demand != subsidies to build something != influx of yuppies.
    Who do you think is occupying all the rental units in downtown, including many that have opened up in the past 2 years? Occupancy is near 100%. Are these all poor black people paying the highest rents in the city? Your criticism doesn't pass the smell test either.

  5. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    Demand != subsidies to build something != influx of yuppies.
    I don't necessarily agree with subsidizing this growth and these developments, but if Detroit has any chance of survival, what else do you suggest we do to make the city an attractive place to live again?

  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtowncitylover View Post
    There is an influx of residents and workers that hasn't been officially documented because 2010 Census was too close to the turning point.
    You were right on in your post up to this point.

    If these people moving downtown are still using suburban addresses, their influx will never be officially documented.

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    1. A yuppy is a young, urban profession. You know, 22 to 40 (?), college degree, real job.

    2. Nobody has provided one piece of evidence to prove there is an influx of yuppy residents to these neighborhoods. The drivers license has nothing to do with census or independent data. Furthermore, it's a misdemeanor to not change your address. I've never been in a business meeting where I closed the deal without real data. Anecdotal optics and excuses (e.g. drivers licenses aren't changed??!) don't pass the smell test.
    That was 30 years ago.

  8. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    You were right on in your post up to this point.

    If these people moving downtown are still using suburban addresses, their influx will never be officially documented.
    With the high cost of Detroit auto insurance and income tax, I would agree that many of these young people are voting or being counted in any census data. They most likely would have an outstate or suburban "official address".

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by gvidas View Post
    Wikipedia pegs it as "short for "young urban professional" or "young upwardly-mobile professional."
    Wouldn't a "young upwardly-mobile professional" be a Yumpie?

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    You were right on in your post up to this point.

    If these people moving downtown are still using suburban addresses, their influx will never be officially documented.
    Haha, yes and I would agree. I would say that they might love living in the city but know it could be any day or week when they decide they've had enough and move out. I don't blame them necessarily. I would rather live in a neighborhood than in the city center. But that's because I like to have yardage and a house or at least a brownstone (wishful thinking here I know). I think many of these kids do too, but when they get sick of the apartment/loft living they have to move past 8 Mile because of crime and schools and many neighborhoods are predominately black and they don't know how to handle it growing up in white bread America . I've heard that in many neighborhoods there is a level of distrust towards whites (can't say I blame them either). I would love to live there, but I don't want to be eyed as the carpetbagger. Now, I know this excludes N. Rosedale Park, EEV, the tony neighborhoods.

  11. #36

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    ...of course much of the neighborhoods our parents and grandparents grew up in are now gone and until we have a steady influx of people and the building of new housing and development in those places, we are unlikely to see them again.

  12. #37

    Default Young urban professionals

    Quote Originally Posted by artds View Post
    Can we get a definition of "yuppie" before proceeding with this thread?
    It refers, of course, to "young urban professionals". Most of all of us take that to mean attorneys, accountants, advertising people, IT folks, etc.

  13. #38
    e.p.3 Guest

    Default

    Almost 40 posts in and no data. Just a bunch of excuses. With all due respect, I don't need to read summaries of every Freep Press or Detroit News hype piece, I asked for some real data.

    Are you guys really suggesting that whatever data exists is wrong because there are thousands of college-educated professionals committing insurance fraud and risking misdemeanor infractions for failing to accurately represent address on their DL?

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    Are you guys really suggesting that whatever data exists is wrong because there are thousands of college-educated professionals committing insurance fraud and risking misdemeanor infractions for failing to accurately represent address on their DL?
    Is that too hard for you to believe?

  15. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    Almost 40 posts in and no data. Just a bunch of excuses. With all due respect, I don't need to read summaries of every Freep Press or Detroit News hype piece, I asked for some real data.

    Are you guys really suggesting that whatever data exists is wrong because there are thousands of college-educated professionals committing insurance fraud and risking misdemeanor infractions for failing to accurately represent address on their DL?
    What an arrogant post. I would say that there's no data because it hasn't been collected yet. If you want to do it, be my guest; we're not your personal Census office.

    And yes, that could be the case. Extremely plausible and not far fetched. Maybe you should call the cops or something?

  16. #41
    e.p.3 Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    Is that too hard for you to believe?
    Yes. Because it's complete BS. Unless you're all suggesting that even college educated professionals succumb to the pressures of the criminal ethos in Detroit. Furthermore, census data is door to door. Why would where you insure you car matter? Why would what's on your driver's license matter? You get a mortgage, a lease, utilities, etc. that could also be used to gather this data, accurately, and relatively easily.

    I'm not a developer. If the city is booming, the developers could easily access what the REAL gains are and those gains would be published...somewhere...anywhere. You all don't find it odd this data doesn't exist? Without data, these neighborhoods are only booming in your minds. That's called marketing.
    Last edited by e.p.3; June-26-14 at 10:44 AM.

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    Is that too hard for you to believe?
    313WX is completely correct. Why is that hard to believe, considering people move to cities in different states without ever updating their driver's license, let alone moving within the same state?

    I know the originator of this thread is requesting hard data, but what he wants may simply not exist. I suggest he simply go spend a couple of days in these areas in question to see himself, even try to rent an apartment in the area.

    Again with the bar set at census numbers, and renters never move without changing their address, even this may not suffice.

  18. #43
    e.p.3 Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jhnbonham View Post
    313WX is completely correct. Why is that hard to believe, considering people move to cities in different states without ever updating their driver's license, let alone moving within the same state?

    I know the originator of this thread is requesting hard data, but what he wants may simply not exist. I suggest he simply go spend a couple of days in these areas in question to see himself, even try to rent an apartment in the area.

    Again with the bar set at census numbers, and renters never move without changing their address, even this may not suffice.
    So you're a developer and you want financing for a building. You tell the finance guys "trust me, it's booming there" and that gets you $50M in financing? Are you all really that naive?

  19. #44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    Yes. Because it's complete BS. Unless you're all suggesting that even college educated professionals succumb to the pressures of the criminal ethos in Detroit. Furthermore, census data is door to door. Why would where you insure you car matter? Why would what's on your driver's license matter? You get a mortgage, a lease, utilities, etc. that could be used to gather this data, accurately.

    I'm not a developer. If the city is booming, the developers could easily access what the REAL gains are and those gains would be published...somewhere...anywhere. You all don't find it odd this data doesn't exist? Without data, these neighborhoods are only booming in your minds. That's called marketing.
    I'm not sure any of us are data people. Go ask Data Driven Detroit.

    I know you're looking for data that's trying to tell you that Midtown-Downtown aren't growing and people aren't moving there but sorry that data doesn't exist either.

  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    So you're a developer and you want financing for a building. You tell the finance guys "trust me, it's booming there" and that gets you $50M in financing? Are you all really that naive?
    So you're a developer and want financing for a building. You tell the finance guys the rental rate in this area is $X.XX/sq ft with an occupancy rate of XX%. The cost of building this project is expected to be $XXX,XXX, with XX units ranging from XXX-X,XXX sq ft, etc etc. You have pages and pages of documentation to support this having spent X amount of money in planning and preparation. Are you really that naive?

    Or are you upset that none of the posters on this forum are developers in the area which have spent their time and money to prepare this for you?
    Last edited by jhnbonham; June-26-14 at 10:51 AM. Reason: Added comment

  21. #46

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    Dude, E.P.3, how about YOU search the internets and write letters to researchers asking them for the latest data. If not, you'll have to wait for census 2020 and scrutinize it yourself, using your big big brain. For now, look at census 2010 v. 2000 and note how much more stable the overall population was in downtown/midtown v. the whole rest of the city.

    BETTER STILL, pending the studies you so anxiously await (and I really don't care that you have to wait, because you're NOT a developer or apparently doing anything productive with this knowledge), how about you go use your eyes and ears for proof? Go to Campus Martius on a weekday evening or a watering hold on Cass or Second Aves on some night and start asking folks where they live and how long they've been there. Ask them what they do for a living and check off a little box indicating their skin color, if you must. All I can think in reading through this sad little thread is how little you must get out. Don't blame your fellow forumers for that!

  22. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    Why would where you insure you car matter?
    Why pay $500 per month to insure your car with a Detroit when you can pay ~$200 per month (and save money) to insure your car with a suburban address?

    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    Why would what's on your driver's license matter?
    Because whatever location your car is registered at is how the insurance companies determine where to set your insurance premiums.

    Quote Originally Posted by e.p.3 View Post
    You get a mortgage, a lease, utilities, etc. that could be used to gather this data, accurately.


    Except for the fact that people can have multiple properties with leases and mortgages and utilities in multiple locations. It is up to those people to determine where they want their primary residence to be.

  23. #48

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    It doesn't matter what anyone says or what numbers anyone finds. He thinks all the major newspapers where you might find these numbers are biased.

    Obviously if some non profit or government agency produces some numbers those will be biased sources too.

    And the crushingly obvious truth that since the last census there's been a population increase isn't convincing to him (quickly rising rents despite 100s+ of new units being created, etc.) it's because he doesn't want it to be true.

    If a census had been done and new numbers were released today that showed an increase he'd think of some reason for them to be "biased".

  24. #49

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    Here's some hard, albeit narrow, data on the tendency of young kids to move downtown but keep their official address in the burbs.

    http://bridgemi.com/2013/03/auto-rat...s-into-hiding/

    Alok Sharma analyzes data for a living. In 2010, he had a client, a politician, who was running for office and wanted to know if it was worth his time to campaign door-to-door in Detroit’s high-rise apartment buildings. Sharma thought the answer might be found by running a high-rise address through the Qualified Voter File, a public document of every registered voter in Michigan. He chose his own: the Kales Building, with 18 floors overlooking Grand Circus Park and 116 one- and two-bedroom apartments.

    It is, Sharma said, full of young professionals like him, as well as empty-nesters — just the type of middle-class people who are likely to be engaged, active voters. When Sharma looked, the building was fully occupied.

    Yet he found only nine names in the Qualified Voter File – counting his own.
    For those keeping score at home, 9 registered voters out of 116 apartments is 7.75%. The percentage goes even lower if you factor in the two bedroom apartments. Statewide, in 2012, 97.8% of voting-age individuals were registered to vote.

  25. #50
    e.p.3 Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    Why pay $500 per month to insure your car with a Detroit when you can pay ~$200 per month (and save money) to insure your car with a suburban address?



    Because whatever location your car is registered at is how the insurance companies determine where to set your insurance premiums.



    Except for the fact that people can have multiple properties with leases and mortgages and utilities in multiple locations. It is up to those people to determine where they want their primary residence to be. [/COLOR]
    Thousands of unreported Detroit residents are college-educated people committing misdemeanors and felonies to live in Detroit, while also running the risk of being denied insurance claims on their biggest assets (housing, car), and refuse to fill out census data. Got it.

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