U.S. Rep. John Conyers calls Detroit water shutoffs inhumane

[lpg]

I live in Lincoln Park and watched our water department doing shutoffs in my neighborhood yesterday. A couple were rental properties with out of state landlords. One was a guy who owed about 1500 in unpaid water, but had the money to take his motorhome to a music festival for a week.

[ABetterDetroit]

I think everyone who owes money for their water and is facing a shutoff, should have the debt forgiven if:
1) They test negative for drugs, alcohol and tobacco.
2) Do not have cable/satellite television, video games, or a smart phone.
3) Have not committed a felony in the last 5 years.
4) If a male: are not behind on court-ordered child support; if a female: have no minor children without a father's name on the birth certificate.

In other words, of you are a responsible adult citizen, you can get a one time forgiven water debt. Oh my! More right-wing hate from me!

Sorry to pick on you 2 nights in a row but your slipping... How many Bureaucrats do you want the DWSD or Detroit, Wayne county, State of Mi to hire to figure out all that shit? One minute you are pure libertarian the next it's "They they they" like you suddenly believe that "they" can do anything anyone dreams up for free.

[Goose]

anyone can take a couple home depot buckets to the river and fill them up and take them back home... no one's access to water is being deprived...

now if you want your water filtered, cleaned, laced with flouride, delivered via an expansive network of pipes directly to your handy little faucet, then any residual water drained away and processed..... you gotta pay.....

next thing people will be demanding free bottled water....

[sumas]

Sometimes the humanity on this board so underwhelms me. Kids are not responsible for adult bad behavior and certainly our country does not respect our aged.

A case in point, two young sisters frequent our house. They would spent long times in our bathrooms. Sorry to say I am a little naive. At first I thought they would ask to use our bathroom because we have TP available. Did finally realize they were essentially bathing themselves using our sink cause their household had no running water. It is heartbreaking. I knew there was issues with other utilities. Also when they would sit on our couch and just go to sleep.

I am happy to say that their Mom wised up finally, left the loser boyfriend and is pursuing a better life for her and her Kids as of Sunday.

Poverty is so complex and a forum of this nature can't address these issues adequately.

Be nice to see a little compassion though

[cjd]

Paging Jimmy McMillan; Jimmy McMillan you are wanted in Detroit! The Water Bill is Too Damn High!

[Jimaz]

Attachment 23823
And Now You Have Cholera

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Sorry to pick on you 2 nights in a row but your slipping... How many Bureaucrats do you want the DWSD or Detroit, Wayne county, State of Mi to hire to figure out all that shit? One minute you are pure libertarian the next it's "They they they" like you suddenly believe that "they" can do anything anyone dreams up for free.

I don't feel picked on. And my proposal wasn't serious [[although I thought that would be obvious). No way would the state or city enact the proposal, let alone the years of litigation that would follow such enactment. One problem I have is that liberals, including ones I respect on this board, often trivialize poverty and it's causes. And they make it seem like asking for people to have a little responsibility for themselves is a crazy and cruel suggestion. That is the true crazy and cruel proposition. Long-term and systemic poverty is the result of behavior. Yes, you can be born into poverty. Yes, a factory can close throwing people out of work. Yes, you can be a single mother abandoned by the father of your children. But you have yourself, lots of government and private sector assistance, and endless time to make positive changes in your life. Poor people- including people of color or with little or no education- move to the U.S. from West Africa or the Caribbean and ten years later have a lot to show for it. The welfare state has cut millions of people off from the world of work and adult responsibility [[and that includes poor black people in Detroit, and lots of poor white people in rural areas, too; government sustained poverty is a terrible thing wherever it exists). Avoiding linking behavior to poverty is like pretending that water doesn't cause drowning. Asking people to start taking their own lives seriously is the first step to truly helping people rejoin the real world. Anything else is a smothering by compassion, designed more to make the liberal feel better rather than to make the recipient any better off.

[corktownyuppie]

There are people and businesses who are not paying for water. Let's divide them into two categories:

1) people and businesses who can pay but are not
2) people who literally cannot pay because they are in extreme poverty

DWSD is not a charity. As someone said, the water may be free. Bringing it to your home is not free. The only recourse here is that they go after all parties who have not paid. ALL parties. Those with money, those with lots of money, and even those with no money.

But I also have compassion for the extremely impoverished. Those people should get help, either from non profits or from the State, which through some legislative action can define who is impoverished enough to need help. The DWSD is not in the business of taking care of the poor. They need to focus on efficient, safe water delivery and infrastructure maintenance.

I agree that we should not keep water from the poor. But I also agree that it is not the job of DWSD to figure out who is who.

[Jimaz]

... water doesn't cause drowning....

An ironic interlude: The Ink Spots - Into Each Life Some Rain Must Fall

[KJ5]

Ironic interlude: the picture of revelers in front of the Dodge Fountain at Hart Plaza that was just adorning the top of this page.

[rex]

DWSD needs to employ some auditor types to investigate those who aren't paying. People who can pay and aren't because "why should I if i can get away with not paying" get cut off. Elderly on fixed income is another story. If you can afford nice things you can pay your water bill or you get no water.

[sumas]

DWSD are not complete villains, recently we had a self flushing toilet, a faucet leak and a water heater gone rogue. All this, at the same time. We had to budget for repairs and expected a big bill. It was! They actually did send a letter asking if we had a flooded basement.

The flip side of that is there are many derelict properties that gush water. On our block, one such home was gushing water. Adjacent neighbors called for a year to fix that. As an association, we got involved and problem did get fixed. Such waste. I see that same scenario all around the city. Response to complaints should be vastly improved!

[DetroitPlanner]

There are people and businesses who are not paying for water. Let's divide them into two categories:

1) people and businesses who can pay but are not
2) people who literally cannot pay because they are in extreme poverty

DWSD is not a charity. As someone said, the water may be free. Bringing it to your home is not free. The only recourse here is that they go after all parties who have not paid. ALL parties. Those with money, those with lots of money, and even those with no money.

But I also have compassion for the extremely impoverished. Those people should get help, either from non profits or from the State, which through some legislative action can define who is impoverished enough to need help. The DWSD is not in the business of taking care of the poor. They need to focus on efficient, safe water delivery and infrastructure maintenance.

I agree that we should not keep water from the poor. But I also agree that it is not the job of DWSD to figure out who is who.

What complicates this is that most in extreme poverty [[#2) are not land owners. It typically falls on the landlord [[#1) to pay the water bill. Many landlords are wreckless and put short term profit over the long-term stability of the neighborhood.

[Goose]

What complicates this is that most in extreme poverty [[#2) are not land owners. It typically falls on the landlord [[#1) to pay the water bill. Many landlords are wreckless and put short term profit over the long-term stability of the neighborhood.

result of the government skewing the free market... section 8 is free money to landlords with almost guaranteed payment, long line of section 8 renters, and minimal property standards... section 8 housing landlords don't have to compete with each other, they don't have to maintain the home to pristine standards, they collect their checks and sit back.... this also has a negative effect on property values....

in a free market, a landlords rental is his racehorse.. it will be maintained and updated to complete with others in the free market, if a landlord is lazy or does not maintain a property, in a free market renters will move on to the next well maintained rental...

with government money flowing, the values of the home have hit an equilibrium with the return on investment from the government checks coming in.... there is no incentive to maintain, particualarly once your initial investment is recouped.... sit back and collect the government cheeze

its a vicious cycle, renters have no options other than other crappy section 8 ill-maintained housing, they can't complain, because there is another person with a voucher right behind them willing to put up with it....

wait til all the illegals are given their vouchers... they came from shacks in their home countries... peeling paint, leaking roofs, wet basements, drafty windows will be welcomed vs. where they were living....

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...wait til all the illegals are given their vouchers... they came from shacks in their home countries... peeling paint, leaking roofs, wet basements, drafty windows will be welcomed vs. where they were living....

Housing is a UN-defined human right. Thus, paying taxes to pay for the housing of non-citizens is a human responsibility. What's the problem.

[Wesley Mouch]

There are people and businesses who are not paying for water. Let's divide them into two categories:

1) people and businesses who can pay but are not
2) people who literally cannot pay because they are in extreme poverty

DWSD is not a charity. As someone said, the water may be free. Bringing it to your home is not free. The only recourse here is that they go after all parties who have not paid. ALL parties. Those with money, those with lots of money, and even those with no money.

But I also have compassion for the extremely impoverished. Those people should get help, either from non profits or from the State, which through some legislative action can define who is impoverished enough to need help. The DWSD is not in the business of taking care of the poor. They need to focus on efficient, safe water delivery and infrastructure maintenance.

I agree that we should not keep water from the poor. But I also agree that it is not the job of DWSD to figure out who is who.

I abhor the thinking that we give things to the poor. But certainly I agree that a viable economy like the US can figure out how to make sure basic water is available to all. Of course there's a cost. It can be handled socially.

I suggest that we provide a limited amount of free water to all. You sign up for an account, and if you use, say, 50 gallons a day, its free. We then raise the price on any consumption over 50 gallons per day. But you must have an account, and you must pay for your overages. This is actually quite fair to all citizens, not just the extremely poor.

I think there are often simple, market-based options that can solve 90% of these kind of 'human rights' issues.

Is housing a right? I don't think so -- but the UN does. So build dormitories. Unpleasant, but livable --with reasonable but strong rules. If you live with civility, we will pay for basic shelter for you. Your housing right ends when the rights of others to a civil environment is infringed.

See, I am a socialist after all. Do you love me now?

[Scottathew]

Pay your bill or get shut off. Seems simple enough to me. Need free water, go to a charity.

Once you tell people that they can't be shut-off more people will take the hint and start abusing it.

[Goose]

Housing is a UN-defined human right. Thus, paying taxes to pay for the housing of non-citizens is a human responsibility. What's the problem.

rights are not something you have by the giving or taking of another... the right to "housing" is bullshit because to be able to supply everyone with housing, one [[government) must, by force or coercion, take from others...

you cannot have a "right" that is dependant on others to supply... even if you can't wrap your head around that... if you think a "right" is something that is supplied by government, then that "right" can be taken away by said same government....

there is not a "right" spelled out in the bill of rights that is dependant on others to supply to you....

[softailrider]

Sometimes the humanity on this board so underwhelms me. Kids are not responsible for adult bad behavior and certainly our country does not respect our aged.

A case in point, two young sisters frequent our house. They would spent long times in our bathrooms. Sorry to say I am a little naive. At first I thought they would ask to use our bathroom because we have TP available. Did finally realize they were essentially bathing themselves using our sink cause their household had no running water. It is heartbreaking. I knew there was issues with other utilities. Also when they would sit on our couch and just go to sleep.

I am happy to say that their Mom wised up finally, left the loser boyfriend and is pursuing a better life for her and her Kids as of Sunday.

Poverty is so complex and a forum of this nature can't address these issues adequately.

Be nice to see a little compassion though

Not trying to sound mean or insensitive but if you can't afford running water you probably shouldn't have children.

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, this is all a great idea. Maybe poor people will just walk down to the river and throw themselves in. They made the mistake of being poor. They need "tough love." Throwing money at them is socialism. They're parasites.

But Wall Street bankers? We need them. We need to pay them bonuses and competitive salaries. They made some mistakes, but no need to go too hard on them. "Tough love" for them would just hurt us all. Paying their bad debts for them is not socialism. They're "job providers."

If any of you can believe both of these statements are true, then, as a society, we deserve everything that is about to happen to us.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Throwing money at them is socialism.

Maybe or maybe not, but at the very least it isn't helpful. How about those who can't pay are offered a choice: spend 20 hours a week working to clean and improve city parks with the equivalent of minimum wage deducted from what you owe, or have your water shut off? That is a serious proposal. Please explain how you feel that would be unfair.

Also, please be aware DetroitNerd I am very much opposed- and was at the time- to the bank bailouts [[and the auto bailouts). I don't support rewarding failure on either the personal or the corporate level.

[Detroitnerd]

Maybe or maybe not, but at the very least it isn't helpful. How about those who can't pay are offered a choice: spend 20 hours a week working to clean and improve city parks with the equivalent of minimum wage deducted from what you owe, or have your water shut off? That is a serious proposal. Please explain how you feel that would be unfair.

Also, please be aware DetroitNerd I am very much opposed- and was at the time- to the bank bailouts [[and the auto bailouts). I don't support rewarding failure on either the personal or the corporate level.

Speaking broadly, all these free market guys -- and I take you to be one of them -- want to let the rich do whatever they want. They can tilt the whole economic system of the country to the point where normal people who want to work are returning pop cans. And then they propose all sorts of social control mechanisms to impose upon people because they're poor, as if it were their choice.

To continue this system another day is to reward failure.

[Wesley Mouch]

Yeah, this is all a great idea. Maybe poor people will just walk down to the river and throw themselves in. They made the mistake of being poor. They need "tough love." Throwing money at them is socialism. They're parasites.

But Wall Street bankers? We need them. We need to pay them bonuses and competitive salaries. They made some mistakes, but no need to go too hard on them. "Tough love" for them would just hurt us all. Paying their bad debts for them is not socialism. They're "job providers."

If any of you can believe both of these statements are true, then, as a society, we deserve everything that is about to happen to us.

I'm absolutely in favor of Tough Love for Wall Street bankers.

However we absolutely do need Wall Street bankers. Banking is in fact a central need of our society, and without it we all would be poor.

Your hate of Wall Street bankers is not unreasonable. However that we have badly handled Wall Street does not justify your continued oppression of the poor by destructive giveaways.

[jlnascar]

Amen, Brother

[Wesley Mouch]

Speaking broadly, all these free market guys -- and I take you to be one of them -- want to let the rich do whatever they want. They can tilt the whole economic system of the country to the point where normal people who want to work are returning pop cans. And then they propose all sorts of social control mechanisms to impose upon people because they're poor, as if it were their choice.

To continue this system another day is to reward failure.

Yes, the system needs correction. But to paint all bankers as evil is just as unfair as painting all poor people as lazy. Fighting unfairness with unfairness is destructive.

I strongly believe in the free market. It has proven to work far better than any other solution. For all the failings of the US, we are certainly a great place to live -- even if you're poor.

The rest of the world is catching up. We shall see if China's central planning experiment works. Only time will tell.

In the meantime, we need to fix where our system rewards failure. Both on the Street and on the street. Less blame. More accepting responsibility. More fixing.