GPP and their Farmers Market smack dab in Kercheval.

[Bobl]

If good, fresh produce is available, at reasonable prices, this doesn't look all that bad to me. It would likely benefit residents on both sides of "the divide".
And, this is from a grumpy old guy who detests roundabouts. I'll learn to tolerate a roundabout.

[GUSHI]

wow all this debate over produce, thats what wrong with the region, people to busy arguing over tomatoes. How about the angry Detroiters take arm and fight with the murderers, dealer, robbers etc. Instead of who cucumber is bigger.

[prokopowicz]

But the race angle, ugly as it is, is arguably eclipsed by the stupidity of the project from a planning perspective. All the uninformed talk from GPP leadership about creating a walkable, pedestrian oriented experience begs the reality that the GPP core already has one of the highest walkability scores in the region. GPP has created a solution that is seeking a problem.
Very sad. Very stupid. And maybe kind of racist too.

I suspect you would be complaining if some walkability group proposed changes to improve walkability in GPP and the planners said "Oh, we're already plenty walkable - don't need any more". I don't get this aspect of your critique, except that you seem to assume bad faith on the planners' part.

Regarding the pike experiment - how much should we extrapolate from fish behavior [[not even a mammal) regarding human social behavior? To me, it's laughable, but I could see someone being insulted by this comparison, too.

[Wesley Mouch]

wow all this debate over produce, thats what wrong with the region, people to busy arguing over tomatoes. How about the angry Detroiters take arm and fight with the murderers, dealer, robbers etc. Instead of who cucumber is bigger.

Excellent point. All this hand-wringing. About produce. About what some lunatic thinks is racism -- and is mostly about potatoes. So do please shut up about this and go do something about crime in Detroit. Blaming the Pointes has some validity -- but mostly its just diverting attention from the real problems. The residents who need to stop accepting crime and start eating vegetables.

[Honky Tonk]

Jeez-o-pete this person needs to get over herself and shame on the M C Muckraker for really mucking it up beyond muckability...Really Cynthia " No Coloreds" I thought that term went away with the Johnson administration. What twisted world do you live in thinking that You and those who share the same pigment will be excluded from shopping at this marketplace. My My what a sad victim existence life you must live. If her comments weren't so sad it would almost be laughable. I'll see you at the Marketplace Cynthia.

“I want to say I’m shocked,” Cynthia Jackson, who lives near Alter in Detroit, said. “But this has been happening for as long as I remember. Might as well put up a sign that says, ‘No coloreds.’”

I think "Cynthia" should get off her fat ass and actually take a walk around GPP. She should go to Kroger, Trader Joe's, Jo Ann Fabric, Village Pub, several resale shops, etc., etc., etc. Everyplace I go, I see "black people", and they don't even know they're black.

[Dan Wesson]

Sharks or is it Pikes eat vegetables?

[swingline]

I suspect you would be complaining if some walkability group proposed changes to improve walkability in GPP and the planners said "Oh, we're already plenty walkable - don't need any more". I don't get this aspect of your critique, except that you seem to assume bad faith on the planners' part.

I don't understand your critique either. My contention is that GPP does not have a walkability problem. Why are they spending plenty of $$$ to solve a non-problem. And, their solution might actually harm the neighborhood's retail performance. Some might justify the project by saying that the Farmers Market needs the permanent stalls. A very debatable proposition indeed. And the solution for this need is to alter traffic by permanently blocking a significant retail artery? For a market that is only open for 5 hours on Saturdays for four months of the year? What does the structure do for the rest of the year? Oh yeah. It blocks traffic to and from Detroit.

There is a faction in GPP that attempts to promote a mutually beneficial relationship with Detroit. GPP residents generally are more progressive than the rest of the Pointes. But current GPP leadership is all about retrenchment and "protection". They couldn't care less about the consequences of their decisions on the future development potential of Kercheval Ave. west of Alter. Yet, imagine the GPP uproar if Detroit condemned a handful of those mostly empty adjoining city blocks to construct a new DPW garbage truck transfer facility, or build a nice new high rise public housing project. Wouldn't that apartment building on the corner of Alter and Kercheval make for a great homeless shelter? Lots of new customers for the Farmers Market.

[e.p.3]

I don't understand your critique either. My contention is that GPP does not have a walkability problem. Why are they spending plenty of $$$ to solve a non-problem. And, their solution might actually harm the neighborhood's retail performance.

Your profile says you're a Detroit resident. With all due respect, it is none of your business or concern what GPP government does.

[Detroitnerd]

Your profile says you're a Detroit resident. With all due respect, it is none of your business or concern what GPP government does.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the iron spike driven through the heart of regionalism.

[swingline]

Your profile says you're a Detroit resident. With all due respect, it is none of your business or concern what GPP government does.

Seriously? Yeah, I guess you're right. SE Michigan quality of life would improve so much if citizens of each of the 150+/- local units of government would stop meddling in their neighboring community's business. Collaboration, regional planning, etc., that's just liberal big government bullshit anyway.

[canuck]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the iron spike driven through the heart of regionalism.

A rusty one at that, eh nerd?

[Honky Tonk]

Seriously? Yeah, I guess you're right. SE Michigan quality of life would improve so much if citizens of each of the 150+/- local units of government would stop meddling in their neighboring community's business. Collaboration, regional planning, etc., that's just liberal big government bullshit anyway.

You mean like assigning a Regional Board to oversee DWSD?

[rex]

It could be argued that the location of this market and access to fresh produce does more for nearside Detrot residents than the thoroughfare does. If they need to enter GPP they detour less than what? half a mile to Mack or Jefferson. Where are the shopping markets over there? West on Jefferson? When i stayed near EEV i would go to a Kroger down 94 a ways or a market at Harper between Whittier and Cadieux. Area near GPP in Detroit doesn't have much in the way of anything. From the sky it looks like a rural area, if all the abandoned homes that remain were cleared away it would be even more so.

[Scottathew]

You mean like assigning a Regional Board to oversee DWSD?

But when you think regionally of a Detroit asset it's "stealing the gems"!

I still don't see what the big deal is. Jefferson and Vernor are still open, yes? So it's going to be slightly less convenient traveling to some parts of Grosse Pointe Park for the few people that are left in that neighborhood that looks like it has a solid 2/3+ of the houses demolished, abandoned, or burned out?

We all need to think regionally. This includes water, transportation, and crime. If there wasn't crime and abandonment issues in the Detroit neighborhood next to GPP, they probably wouldn't be closing off Kercheval.

If you fast-forward a couple decades in the future and that neighborhood is thriving, crime is down, etc... you might even see them opening Kercheval back up.

Fix the crime and repopulate the neighborhoods. Detroit needs to do most of the heavy lifting, but there are regional things we can do to. And when we start picking up people from Belle Isle for their outstanding warrants, stop complaining.

[e.p.3]

The Detroit border here will never be repopulated.

[Honky Tonk]

But when you think regionally of a Detroit asset it's "stealing the gems"!

I still don't see what the big deal is. Jefferson and Vernor are still open, yes? So it's going to be slightly less convenient traveling to some parts of Grosse Pointe Park for the few people that are left in that neighborhood that looks like it has a solid 2/3+ of the houses demolished, abandoned, or burned out?

We all need to think regionally. This includes water, transportation, and crime. If there wasn't crime and abandonment issues in the Detroit neighborhood next to GPP, they probably wouldn't be closing off Kercheval.

If you fast-forward a couple decades in the future and that neighborhood is thriving, crime is down, etc... you might even see them opening Kercheval back up.

Fix the crime and repopulate the neighborhoods. Detroit needs to do most of the heavy lifting, but there are regional things we can do to. And when we start picking up people from Belle Isle for their outstanding warrants, stop complaining.

There is no big deal. There are @ least another 200 other ways to get into GPP without Kercheval. No one in GPP is asking for anyone's papers or turning anyone back. GPP wants to develop that old, run down, end of town, so they're trying a "walkable" plaza with markets and restaurants. I frequent stores in GPP, and see boatloads [[probably will get cited by someone on this forum for using a racially suggestive term) of "black people" walking, eating, shopping, WORKING, loving, and no one seems to give a rats-a$$, except for posters on this forum.

[jt1]

But when you think regionally of a Detroit asset it's "stealing the gems"!

Detroit needs to do most of the heavy lifting, but there are regional things we can do to.

Therein lies the problem. There is a push to regionalize any assets that produce a revenue stream or have assets but there is no push to regionalize care of the mentally ill homeless, spreading the halfway houses around the region, etc.

I am all for regionalization but you are essentially saying let's regionalize the assets and Detroit can keep the liabilities. That however is no surprise since that is the typical talk of regionalization.

[Hermod]

The homeless are perfectly free to be homeless anywhere in Michigan. For some reason, the would rather be homeless in Detroit rather than homeless in Alpena [[better opportunities to panhandle). I would imagine that we have far more homeless here in south Florida [[mentally ill, substance abuse, and just plain vagrancy) than you will find in Sioux Falls, SD.

[jt1]

The homeless are perfectly free to be homeless anywhere in Michigan. For some reason, the would rather be homeless in Detroit rather than homeless in Alpena [[better opportunities to panhandle). I would imagine that we have far more homeless here in south Florida [[mentally ill, substance abuse, and just plain vagrancy) than you will find in Sioux Falls, SD.

Surely you can't be that naive. There are two key things to consider:

1. Where are the homeless dumped? Some communities like to take the homeless and mentally ill to communities that have facilities to support them. Some communities even make it illegal to sleep outside, in public areas, etc.
2. Where are said facilities located?

Perhaps we should start putting mental health facilities and shelters equivalently spread throughout communities based upon population. It would only be logical that Troy should have more services and shelters than Pontiac given the population difference. But we all know how sharing these services and facilities is not a regional concern [[as long as places like Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, etc. have to deal with them.

You're too intelligent to really believe your bullshit claim.

[Hermod]

Surely you can't be that naive. There are two key things to consider:

1. Where are the homeless dumped? Some communities like to take the homeless and mentally ill to communities that have facilities to support them. Some communities even make it illegal to sleep outside, in public areas, etc.
2. Where are said facilities located?

Perhaps we should start putting mental health facilities and shelters equivalently spread throughout communities based upon population. It would only be logical that Troy should have more services and shelters than Pontiac given the population difference. But we all know how sharing these services and facilities is not a regional concern [[as long as places like Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, etc. have to deal with them.

You're too intelligent to really believe your bullshit claim.

Some years back, Washington DC built a large homeless shelter in Anacostia. The homeless and their advocates complained like mad about the police taking the homeless over there because in the morning it was too hard for the homeless to get back over to the Mall where the good panhandling was.

I am a firm believer that the government is the houser, feeder, and employer of last resort. I also believe that if you are in the "last resort" you shouldn't get too much choice in the matter if the government wants to house you on a closed up military base in the western Dacotas, wants to feed you army chow and no alcohol, and wants you to keep your shelter clean and perform "green" projects [[for nominal pay) in nearby wilderness areas.


Until they stopped the practice, Ft Lauderdale city cops used to take panhandlers out into the middle of the Everglades and dump them. After a few nights with the alligators, the vagrants would decide they needed a more friendly venue.

[Wesley Mouch]

What facts? Sounds like a rumor to me, unsubstantiated and presented by an interested party. As for flying off the handle, I think I've been pretty restrained in my remarks, commenting on things that should be obvious to any seasoned observer. If there's anybody flying off the handle here ...

DN, most 'facts' presented here are really opinions. Nothing to get excited about.

But keep looking, and everywhere you'll find racism and microagressions. You know they're out there, festering in the minds of all white people.

[p69rrh51]

The “who me?” exclamations from the GPP leaders denying any crime prevention motivation to the closing of Kercheval resemble the “wink/nudges” that GOP state legislators give when they claim that making it more difficult for Democrat voters to get to the polls plays no part whatsoever in their zeal to enact their blatantly unnecessary voter fraud legislation.

But the race angle, ugly as it is, is arguably eclipsed by the stupidity of the project from a planning perspective. All the uninformed talk from GPP leadership about creating a walkable, pedestrian oriented experience begs the reality that the GPP core already has one of the highest walkability scores in the region. GPP has created a solution that is seeking a problem.

If you want problems though, you can create them for your business owners by closing streets to vehicles. http://www.placemakers.com/2012/07/09/pedestrian-malls/ This is a highly discredited planning tool that only works in very unique circumstances [[e.g., massive amounts of tourists, existing transit accessibility, existing traffic gridlock). Right now, the finely grained street grid of GPP ensures easy access to the GPP “downtown” by foot, bike and car. Retail needs this flow in order to thrive. A lot of that vehicle flow comes from the west [[i.e. Detroit). It’s just not smart to block that flow. It’s not smart for a small scale retail/commercial district like Kercheval in GPP to essentially insist that shoppers take a circuitous route to a parking lot and then get out and walk to a storefront. Merchants with zero lot line storefronts want their customers to be able to easily drive past their store. Vehicle calmed narrow streets with curb parking that protects sidewalks that have a pedestrian friendly width create the most vibrant and healthy public spaces. GPP has all of this already. The potential for more empty storefronts on Kercheval in GPP to facilitate a 12 Saturdays per year Farmer’s Market is high.

As for the posters on here that perpetuate the rumor that Detroit’s unwillingness to cooperate with Kercheval improvements somehow forced this “solution” on GPP, well, just stop it. Until somebody can come up with actual evidence that this happened [[name some names), stop using a rumor to bolster GPP’s bad planning. Until this awful decision by GPP, Kercheval Ave. had excellent potential to serve as a bridge across the divide. From a street grid perspective, there is a seamlessness to the border between the neighborhoods. Improvements on the GPP side that generated more $$$ and traffic to the area could have bootstrapped investment on the Detroit side. Now there is a physical barrier with its ass-end facing Detroit that will likely cause more disinvestment on that side. Now, no money will ever be invested on Kercheval on the west side of Alter because a Berlin Wall is blocking access to any possibility of Grosse Pointers venturing over. Very sad. Very stupid. And maybe kind of racist too.

Swingline you could be more wrong! One after talking those involved and I won't name names because a couple of them are friends but the developers were told to get lost. If you would like to meet some people involved PM me and I will put you in touch with them.
As for your trying to use urban models in GP you are wasting your time, GP defies any model you want to apply.
As for the leadership of GPP they would have liked to install a prison style wall, it was the developers who decided on the market.
As for this mythical thoroughfare that has never existed, I have lived in GP for over 45 years and lived on Wayburn between Kercheval and St. Paul, the automobile traffic that I have observed for over the last 35 years coming from Detroit amounted almost nothing. The Party store on the corner of Wayburn and Kercheval was the only business the residents of Detroit patronized[[a whopping half a block into GPP from Detroit). Our biggest problem crime wise when I lived in GPP and it still exists today walked or rode their bicycles into GPP. When Korte was blocked smash and grab robberies declined by over 50%[[its interesting GPP is not eliminating the bigger threat to the community). Also Kercheval itself has been a non factor since the Jefferson North Plant was built, cutting off Kercheval. Also for the last 52 years I have lived on the eastside, E. Vernor and Charlevoix were the main crossings between GPP and Detroit[[again interesting that neither street has been blocked off).
As for no business on Kercheval in the future over 99% and growing of the automobile traffic comes from Grosse Pointe itself, in fact the traffic has been the most congested I have seen in decades and that bodes very well for the future health of the area. I know things are going well when those living on the side streets are complaining about parking. Residents of GP are flocking there mainly because they feel safe with the improvements. Swingline I bet you $100 that in five years there will be hardly any empty storefronts on Kercheval and E. Vernor and Charlevoix will also reap some of the benefits.
Last as I posted earlier I would have liked to see the Detroit side of Kercheval included in the development. The is one Albert Kahn designed bank, plus the George D. Mason & Company designed Church and the Smith Hinchman & Grylls designed Library that are well worth preserving.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Until they stopped the practice, Ft Lauderdale city cops used to take panhandlers out into the middle of the Everglades and dump them. After a few nights with the alligators, the vagrants would decide they needed a more friendly venue.[/QUOTE]

Hermod
What a novel idea, wouldn't work here in Detroit as we have no Everglades or Alligators.

[Scottathew]

Therein lies the problem. There is a push to regionalize any assets that produce a revenue stream or have assets but there is no push to regionalize care of the mentally ill homeless, spreading the halfway houses around the region, etc.

I am all for regionalization but you are essentially saying let's regionalize the assets and Detroit can keep the liabilities. That however is no surprise since that is the typical talk of regionalization.

That's not entirely true. COBO was a huge mess and needed major repairs and we regionalized it. The asset was important to all the communities and we all decided to make sure it got taken care of.

The same is true of the DIA. It wasn't making money, it needed money, and we regionalized it's funding through the tri-county property tax. Once again, there was a common interest.

We've also sent in tons of State Police to help out Detroit, Flint, and Saginaw. There we're taking state resources and dedicating them to areas that need extra help. However, we have seen how some people, including elected officials, whine and cry when people with warrants are arrested.

I do agree that we need to do better when it comes to the mentally ill, homeless, and those addicted to drugs that want help. I do see your point that there's no regional interest here because it's viewed as a Detroit problem.

[Goose]

reminds me of the scene in "the Jerk" where Navin was advised on how to keep the black people out.... turns out he was a black person.....

this exact same scene probably played out when they were drawing up plans for the market

http://youtu.be/kBJDz4ylQO0