Crime in Detroit

[Django]

Even if it was only 20,000 dead pr year in Mexico because of our drug laws it is unacceptable for me. Add up the suspected numbers again I have no idea why you keep comparing the loss of life to other natural tragedies. This tragedy can be handled and we as a world should be handling it, we are not talking about Somoli warlord's starvation, earthquake's, or AIDS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE FAILED WAR ON DRUGS. Please stick to the issue if you want to debate. Cartels dumping 20 headless bodies on a major highway is the issue [[that happened about a year and a half ago). I was in Mexico a few years back for a winter and I spent some time in Culican where the graveyards are stuffed with huge towering memorials to drug runners, Mariachi Bands are hired by drug dealers to write Narco Corridos [[ballads) about them. The drug trade is rife in Mexico, Central, and south America. You seem to think that if one person dies in an earthquake it's okay another dies because he was hired to run a few kilos across town. I do understand what your saying Dave but I have picked a battle, I'm sure you have heard of the saying "choose your Battles" and the drug war is mine.
If you take the drugs away from a drug cartel they are no longer a drug cartel. No doubt they will move on to more kidnapping, extortion, and whatever but that is not my objective, the drug war is and that would count as a win in my book if drugs were taken away from them. I think it's best to focus on one battle at a time. If you want to tackle kidnapping, stopping earthquakes, or ending starvation please be my guest but that is not what we are discussing today.
The death rate may very well not go down in Mexico right away if the drug war is ended but it will be a start. We will be able to say tere are less deaths, 22,000 a year in mexico alone less if they had no illegal drug running. A proper agency should be in charge of the agriculture end of growing crops and another in charge of transportation/distribution. Im stabbing at ideas at this point as I am not qualified.

On to your next response. You say mass incarceration is not being done??? are you serious? I really have to remind you that the US is 5% of the worlds population but we have 25% of the worlds incarcerated. Are you not fact checking my posts because I would like to assume you are reading my posts. Big difference between locking up non violent offenders and violent ones. Most all drug offenses are non violent. The fact thet they are illegal causes some violence, quite a bit of the violence in fact which is one of the many reasons I support decrim/legalization. As for your last comment about a crackdad beating his children I'm beginning to realize that you dont live down here. Fathers dont beat there children because of crack or because they dont have crack, they beat because they grew up in a violent household. Where the hell do you live that you are so disconnected with the truth? You really do live in Windsor dont you.

As your your last comment on peer pressuure. Ciggs and booze are shamelessly advertised and sold. Advertising these drugs was a mistake from the start. Any kid in a high school can get drugs. Peer pressure is over rated. If you have a kid he is sure as hell going to see the pains of drug abuse like any parent should be showing them. All the money we spend putting people in prison could be going to drug prevention, drug rehab, something all should already be doing for their children.

Dude youre wearing me out tonite. As much as I would like to keep on you and be more descriptive I'm beat and need to hit the hay. My argument wasnt the best this last post but Im ready for more in the morning so bring it. I have to be honest, you really have not thought out this issue have you? I feel you got a knee jerk thing goin on and your a ready Mf'er. I respect that.

[Zacha341]

LOL! Ah yes!

Isn't that called Australia?

Can't we jteach criminals how to plant vegetables, and put them on a island, a few hundred mile from the main land.

[davewindsor]

Even if it was only 20,000 dead pr year in Mexico because of our drug laws it is unacceptable for me. Add up the suspected numbers again I have no idea why you keep comparing the loss of life to other natural tragedies. This tragedy can be handled and we as a world should be handling it, we are not talking about Somoli warlord's starvation, earthquake's, or AIDS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE FAILED WAR ON DRUGS.

Yes, we are talking about them. Dying of starvation is not a natural tragedy. It's the result of corrupt governments and warlords/cartels/mafias taking advantage of their fellow countrymen. Starvation is, in fact, worse then getting murdered by a cartel because when someone dies of starvation they die a slow, painful death--it's a long, protracted torture; whereas, getting killed by a spray of bullets is usually quick and painless.

Please stick to the issue if you want to debate. Cartels dumping 20 headless bodies on a major highway is the issue [[that happened about a year and a half ago).

Oh and government funded death squads in Brazil and the rest of Latin America, and Africa and the middle east don't do this?!?

I guess the Al Quaida insurgents lining the roads to Bagdad with decapitated Iraqi police and soldiers these past couple weeks didn't happen either because the problems with Iraqi is not about a drug war. Or mass executions of citizens by their tyrannical government in Syria is not happening either because it's not about a drug war.

A cartel is just another name for a mafia or warlord. If you legalize drugs in the US, you're still going to have these kinds of mass executions over some other issue in those countries. Connecting the US Drug war with outside countries is irrelevant because these mass deaths will happen anyway. Do you know what the mafia is? They are involved in all the criminal elements, not just drugs. That's the problem with Mexico. The mafia has just gotten too strong and big and the legalization of drugs in the US isn't going to do a hill of beans in eliminating the mafia in Mexico or reducing mafia related deaths.

On to your next response. You say mass incarceration is not being done??? are you serious? I really have to remind you that the US is 5% of the worlds population but we have 25% of the worlds incarcerated.

You haven't proven this data. But regardless, let's assume it's true. Then the only conclusion I could gather is that in impoverished countries they are doing something else like executing prisoners or some other form of punishment.

Do you know what the punishment is under Sharia law in countries like Iran for stealing a loaf of bread? You don't go to jail--you get your hand cut off. You rape a woman and you either have to pay their family a penalty like the monetary equivalent of 40 sheep and if they refuse, you're publicly executed. A lot of African countries do the same thing. Compared to many other countries, sending a prisoner to jail with three square meals a day at taxpayer's expense instead of the prisoner earning his keep is very lenient.

Fathers dont beat there children because of crack or because they dont have crack, they beat because they grew up in a violent household.

No, it's medically proven that drugs make people violent.

Even soft drugs such as marijuana has been medically proven to cause bipolar disorder with psychotic features. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811144/

Drugs make people crazy. That's why it needs to stay illegal.

Where do you think all the violence comes from in the COD?

Any kid in a high school can get drugs. Peer pressure is over rated. If you have a kid he is sure as hell going to see the pains of drug abuse like any parent should be showing them.

That's simply not true. It's not that easy to buy drugs because your schoolmates have to trust you before they will sell it to you because they know they can go to jail, get expelled and have their life ruined selling it. So, they're gonna be a little bit cautious, quite unlike smokes where you're not going to go to jail over it.

Legalize drugs like smokes and the lower price will also make it a lot more accessible to school kids. Do you really believe that if marijuana or crack cost as little as a cigarette that users wouldn't use it more often and abuse it? Seriously?!

[Django]

Yes, we are talking about them. Dying of starvation is not a natural tragedy. It's the result of corrupt governments and warlords/cartels/mafias taking advantage of their fellow countrymen. Starvation is, in fact, worse then getting murdered by a cartel because when someone dies of starvation they die a slow, painful death--it's a long, protracted torture; whereas, getting killed by a spray of bullets is usually quick and painless.

I still dont understand why tackling one issue is useless just because others will still abound. Ending the WOD will obviously not solve every problem in the world and I never made such a claim so can we please stick to the topic. Im not arguing about starvation, death squads, or earthquakes. I dont understand why you keep bringing up off topic issues as if they are related. Yes the world can be a horrid place but this discussion is about the drug war. Please keep on topic because its really a pain in my ass reminding you. Ending the WOD's will not solve all problems but it will be a step forward for cripes sake. Again, you are grabbing at straws. Ending the WOD's is just a small step toward a better world. Please stop bringing up other issues as if my argument would be a solution to earthquakes or death squads in Iraq, there is no connection.

Here is one of the many articles on the US and world prison population. Just Google World Prison Population and you will find the same stats. We are responsible for 25% of the prison population but are only 5% of the world population. Our war on drugs is responsibe for that stat.. http://billmoyers.com/2013/12/16/lan...its-prisoners/

No, it's medically proven that drugs make people violent.

Even soft drugs such as marijuana has been medically proven to cause bipolar disorder with psychotic features. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811144/

Drugs make people crazy. That's why it needs to stay illegal.

Where do you think all the violence comes from in the COD?

Medically proven? please enlighten me with some medical studies. Im not saying drugs do not alter ones state of mind but a person with a violent background is likely going to act violently. Do you seriously think drugs make people violent? Thats a load. Even if you live here in the city you obviously dont live in the neighborhoods surrounding downtown or the Corridor. Your statement that "drugs make people crazy" is a pretty broad statement. Alcohol also makes people crazy so should that be made Illegal? Alcohol is the cause of much more violence. Have you ever seen a dude high on weed or heroin get violent? Duuuude come on, again your really reachin. Asking me why there is so much violence in the COD and tou blaming it on drugs is just silly. Drugs no doubt play a part but that is a very complex issue. Your saying drugs make people violent and that is simply not true. If you are so adament about drugs being evil you should really start a campagn to make alcohol and tobacco Illegal dont you agree? They are the two biggest killers and alcohol makes people crazier than any drug I know of other than maybe PCP. Why are you not championing prohbition?

As far as your last statement above yes I am serious. There are drug daealers in high school which make it much easier to find than an adult over 21 who will buy them a six pack. In the city especially where kids are used as drug dealers and runners on a regular basis. You really must live in Windsor.

Please please please, if your going to debate have a decent argument. I dont want to argue about death squads or earthquakes, this is a discussion on the drug war. [[apologies to the thread starter for jacking his thread) Like I said the drug war is my chosen soapbox and I feel obligated to to respond but you dave are really just annoying with pointless points for the most part. Geeze, this is becoming exausting shooting down your theories. I just do not think YOU should be able to tell me what I want to injest. If Im not harming you you have no business telling me what I can consume. Do you feel you have the right to tell me what in this world I can consume. Thats really the question. Should I be able to tell you what you can and cannot consume?

[davewindsor]

I still dont understand why tackling one issue is useless just because others will still abound.

Why? Because the net effect is nothing. You won't reduce the deaths in Mexico through legalization of drugs in the US and what happens in another country is completely irrelevant to the war on drugs in the US. They are independent countries that operate indepedently. I don't know what's the matter with you. Is it your drug problem? HOW ARE THEY RELEVANT?? IT MAKES NO SENSE! So YOU stick to the topic instead of bringing up your US Centric views.

Here is one of the many articles on the US and world prison population. Just Google World Prison Population and you will find the same stats. We are responsible for 25% of the prison population but are only 5% of the world population. Our war on drugs is responsibe for that stat.. http://billmoyers.com/2013/12/16/lan...its-prisoners/

DID YOU BOTHER READING WHAT I SAID IN THE LAST POST?? THE SENTENCING LAWS ARE DIFFERENT IN OTHER COUNTRIES. HENCE, THE DIFFERENT INCARCERATION RATES.

Medically proven? please enlighten me with some medical studies.

YES, IT'S MEDICALLY PROVEN. I'VE POSTED LINKS TO IT IN TWO PREVIOUS POSTS TO YOU IN THIS THREAD ALREADY.

Do you seriously think drugs make people violent?

YES, IT'S A FACT!

Alcohol also makes people crazy so should that be made Illegal? Alcohol is the cause of much more violence.

Again, you are talking about two different topics. Not relevant. Alcohol is not drugs. Why do you think there is a Drug Enforcement Agency and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms? Because they are two different topics. Apples and oranges, buddy.

Have you ever seen a dude high on weed or heroin get violent?

YES, MANY TIMES.

There are drug daealers in high school which make it much easier to find than an adult over 21 who will buy them a six pack.

Prove it.

I just do not think YOU should be able to tell me what I want to injest. If Im not harming you you have no business telling me what I can consume. Do you feel you have the right to tell me what in this world I can consume. Thats really the question. Should I be able to tell you what you can and cannot consume?

YES, if I have to pay for your public health care costs, social service costs, etc. because of your drug problem through higher taxes, I do have a right to tell you what to consume. And, guess what, drugs are illegal so there must be a large consensus here that what I'm saying has some merit.

[Django]

Why? Because the net effect is nothing. You won't reduce the deaths in Mexico through legalization of drugs in the US and what happens in another country is completely irrelevant to the war on drugs in the US. They are independent countries that operate indepedently. I don't know what's the matter with you. Is it your drug problem? HOW ARE THEY RELEVANT?? IT MAKES NO SENSE! So YOU stick to the topic instead of bringing up your US Centric views.

Im inclined to think if drugs were regulated and distributed properly the drug violence would cease because smaller countries take there cue's from us and instill laws because of us. If we decrim or legalize the rest will follow. Do you really think Mexico fights there extremely violent drug war for the good of their nation? They do it because they want us as allies, we basically tell them what to do. I dont understand why you would think that is a US centric view.

DID YOU BOTHER READING WHAT I SAID IN THE LAST POST?? THE SENTENCING LAWS ARE DIFFERENT IN OTHER COUNTRIES. HENCE, THE DIFFERENT INCARCERATION RATES.

Yes, our sentencing laws are draconian. It doesnt change the fact that we are responsible for 25% of the world prisoners which is sick and wrong. I thought we were the home of the free, known for abolishing slavery. Sharia law is rarely enforced, completely brutal but rarely enforced and not an excuse for us to to do the same. Yes I read what you wrote.

YES, IT'S MEDICALLY PROVEN. I'VE POSTED LINKS TO IT IN TWO PREVIOUS POSTS TO YOU IN THIS THREAD ALREADY.

From what Ive read your two links are the same article just on different websites. Heres a quote "neurobiological effects of cannabis are being evaluated in the development of psychiatric illness for those individuals who may be genetically vulnerable" The doctors are talking about people who already have a condition and marijuana use may have exasperated it.

YES, IT'S A FACT!

Its a fact that drugs make people violent, that is a symptom of using drugs? Thats just silly. I could agree if that drug is alcohol. I could agree if its a crack head who cant get his next hit and decides to rob someone but It is not a fact that drugs make people violent. No one wants to be violent, people do not take drugs to become violent they take drugs for a little escape, for a little trip out of there mundane lives, to feel something different but not to be violent. It is not a fact and you know it. What kind of sheltered life did you live. Your name suggests you live in Windsor but YOU seem to suggest you live here, whats the story with that? Have you ever lived in a neighborhood where drug abuse is rampant? Do you realize that if your plan came to fruit our neighborhoods would be desolate, families torn apart, more houses left empty and vacant. People use drugs, agood portion of people here. Not all drug users are crack dancing in the street, most live normal lives with normal jobs and famlies. Do you realize what this country would be if you locked up every illegal drug user? We already are the biggest jailer in the world, our prison population would double, but that will never happen. Get a grip Buddy.

Again, you are talking about two different topics. Not relevant. Alcohol is not drugs. Why do you think there is a Drug Enforcement Agency and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms? Because they are two different topics. Apples and oranges, buddy.

Alcohol is a drug and that IS a fact. Tell me the difference. Just because the government has labeled one drug legal and another illegal and positioned different agencies according to what they have deemed legal and illegal doesnt make alcohol not a drug. Its the same concept, you consume something and it fucks you up, alcohol is a drug. Tobacco is a drug, chocolate is a drug just like heroin. You consume it and it alters your state of mind. I love that you think alcohol is not a drug though because it gives me some insight into the shallow depths of your thinking.

YES, MANY TIMES.

This is something that cannot be proved one way or another but I will say I bet that these violent people on drugs were drunk. LOL, Ive never seen a stoner in a bar walk up to somebody and start a fight but I have seen some drinkers do it, yes, many times.

Prove it.

How am I supposed to prove it? All i know is that if I wanted a tab of acid or a joint in high school all I had to go see was the dude two lockers down from me. If I wanted beer I had to drive up and down M-59 waving down guys that looked 21 and hope to pay them extra to buy us some beer. It was a lot more work getting alcohol, really. Were you not a teenager or something? Everybody I know went through that experience. Everybody I know also just located the nearest head to score what drugs they wanted. I grew up in the burbs so coke and heroin were not as popular as they are here in the city where drugs are dealt by everyone on every corner. Family members sell it and pass the trade on to their younglings with impunity. I say get the drugs off the street and control them, regulate them, distribute them proper, properly.

YES, if I have to pay for your public health care costs, social service costs, etc. because of your drug problem through higher taxes, I do have a right to tell you what to consume. And, guess what, drugs are illegal so there must be a large consensus here that what I'm saying has some merit.

Because you would rather pay more for an addict to sit in a sell and feed him/her.

BTW Ding Dong, I dont have a problem with drugs so screw you for accusing online and in public of having one. I am perfectly at ease with the drugs I take, we have a good relationship.

What else you got for me to shoot down? PULL!

[sumas]

Well Django we certainly have some real charmers on the forum. Of course they have no clue as to who or what you are.

I certainly appreciated your kindness in visiting my husband in the hospital. I almost lost my husband and all support and prayers were committed to my memory.

Don't bother with the bull shit artists on these threads. You are a good person with valid opinions.

For the un or ill informed the hospitalization had zippo to do with drug use. We don't do that stuff. My husband has Parkinsons and the body just slowly keeps shutting down. The assholes on the board will no doubt make light of the seriousness of his disease too. Go for it idiots. They wouldn't know a disease from a pimple on their butts. Sumas

[Jimaz]

Google Portugal "drug policy" for some interesting reading. It's surprisingly difficult to find anything negative about drug decriminalization there. At most I could find only vague doubts of the positive effects of decriminalization.

It's so one-sided that it almost seems suspicious.

Is it just because there's something unique about Portugal? What would that be?

[Django]

Thank you Sue, it was such a nice surprise to get a call from your man last week. Im glad he's home and doing better. You know I love the both of you.

Jimaz, absolutely. Portugal decrimed drugs over 10 years ago and Lisbon is thriving now and the drug infested main ghetto is gone. They have done wonders with the new policy and it's inexcusable why it's not in the news more to show what can be done with resources like the police diverted to real issues other than chasing around drug addicts in the street and locking them up. I stole this quote from Wiki about Portugal because I found it enlightening, I didn't know they were such forward thinkers besides the drug issue. From Wiki: Portugal is considered a developed country with an advanced economy and high living standards.^[17][18][19] It's one of the world's most globalized and peaceful nations.^[20] It is a member of the United Nations, European Union, Eurozone, OECD, NATO, WTO, Schengen Area, and the Community of Portuguese Language Countries. On 31 May 2010, Portugal became the sixth country in Europe and the eighth country in the world to legally recognize same-sex marriage on the national level.^[21] Portugal also received international attention for being the first country in the world to fully decriminalize the usage of all drugs in 2001.^[22]

GUSHI, who is this crack head you want to smuggle to Mexico?

[davewindsor]

Im inclined to think if drugs were regulated and distributed properly the drug violence would cease because smaller countries take there cue's from us and instill laws because of us. If we decrim or legalize the rest will follow. Do you really think Mexico fights there extremely violent drug war for the good of their nation? They do it because they want us as allies, we basically tell them what to do. I dont understand why you would think that is a US centric view.

You got it wrong again. The President of Mexico and other countries take advice from US in the same way that Vladimir Putin takes advice from the US--it's worth nothing more than toilet paper. All these countries operate independently of the US and out of self-interest. Mexico is fighting a war with the drug cartels not because the US told them to do it, but for the good of their nation. SERIOUSLY! The Mexican drug cartel is just another name for the mafia. The drug cartel is greedy and wants a cut in everything just like any other mafia in the US or any other nations.

Think about it. What's been happening in Mexico in the past decade? A lot of global interests have been closing factories in the US and building factories in Mexico. They are moving their industries to Mexico. But, the drug cartels get greedy and want a cut--they threaten them that they have huge private militias and want protection money or else. These global interests refuse to pay these huge protection ransoms, so the cartels try a new strategy. They kidnap their executives and management for huge ransoms and steal their supplies and inventory. These factory owners complain to the Mexican government that they can't operate their factories in Mexico if they won't do something about these drug cartels who are kidnapping and ransoming their employees and stealing their supplies and inventory. So, the President of Mexico has no choice but to declare war on the cartels, not because of drugs, but because of cartel rackets and activities that destroy the global business environment that is needed to move Mexico from an impoverished third world nation into a wealthier industrial nation. It's out of Mexico's own self-interest, not something instructed to them by the US. The drug cartels opened Pandora's box by rackeetering, kidnapping and stealing stock from those new global company's factories, so now the government has to declare war on the cartels so that these factories don't shut down and move to another more business friendly country.

Yes, our sentencing laws are draconian. It doesnt change the fact that we are responsible for 25% of the world prisoners which is sick and wrong. I thought we were the home of the free, known for abolishing slavery. Sharia law is rarely enforced, completely brutal but rarely enforced and not an excuse for us to to do the same. Yes I read what you wrote.

Do you know that in thirteen countries now, capital punishment is mandatory for drug related offences? So much for imprisonment as your draconian sentence.

From what Ive read your two links are the same article just on different websites. Heres a quote "neurobiological effects of cannabis are being evaluated in the development of psychiatric illness for those individuals who may be genetically vulnerable" The doctors are talking about people who already have a condition and marijuana use may have exasperated it.

You misread it. There article is doing two analysis. One with an existing psychiatric illness and one without an existing psychiatric illness and their conclusion was that cannabis causes psychiatric illness. Let me quote it for you since you obviously missed this:

Page 16==>"Although our patient had no genetic predisposition with a negative family history of any psychiatric illness..."

Page 19 ==> "...we feel that the cannabis affected his neurochemical system in a chronic way causing him to have long-term problems. As our case report demonstrates, there are individuals who are otherwise healthy, with no genetic predisposition, who can be diagnosed with a psychiatric illness purely with cannabis abuse. This goes along with the first hypothesis that cannabis use causes psychotic symptoms in an otherwise healthy individual, which would not have occurred with abstinence."

Its a fact that drugs make people violent, that is a symptom of using drugs? Thats just silly.

I just proved it with the medical research above. Cannabis causes the psychiatric illness. The psychiatric illness makes them violent.

Do you realize what this country would be if you locked up every illegal drug user?

Yes, a safer society where we can walk the streets of Detroit at night without worrying about getting shot or robbed to pay for someone's drug habit or both.

We already are the biggest jailer in the world, our prison population would double, but that will never happen. Get a grip Buddy.

Bring in those private prisons. Put prisoners to work and make them earn their keep.

Alcohol is a drug and that IS a fact. Tell me the difference.

Alcohol and drugs are two different topics. They are not the same thing. Why can't you understand that? Apples and oranges.

This is something that cannot be proved one way or another but I will say I bet that these violent people on drugs were drunk. LOL, Ive never seen a stoner in a bar walk up to somebody and start a fight but I have seen some drinkers do it, yes, many times.

When a stoner has a drug induced psychotic disorder with delusions of grandeur, they start fights. I've seen it. Read that article I gave you a link for again.

How am I supposed to prove it? All i know is that if I wanted a tab of acid or a joint in high school all I had to go see was the dude two lockers down from me. If I wanted beer I had to drive up and down M-59 waving down guys that looked 21 and hope to pay them extra to buy us some beer. It was a lot more work getting alcohol, really. Were you not a teenager or something? Everybody I know went through that experience. Everybody I know also just located the nearest head to score what drugs they wanted. I grew up in the burbs so coke and heroin were not as popular as they are here in the city where drugs are dealt by everyone on every corner. Family members sell it and pass the trade on to their younglings with impunity. I say get the drugs off the street and control them, regulate them, distribute them proper, properly.

Where you the dude two lockers down or where you the user? I can't tell. It seems you know a lot about this though.

When I went to school, it was the exact opposite. Beer was easy to get. It was rare finding someone willing to sell drugs.

How do you get that it's this easy to find drugs in the burbs? Were you a dealer? Are you a dealer?

Because you would rather pay more for an addict to sit in a sell and feed him/her.

No, I think the law should change and prisoners should work for their keep.

BTW Ding Dong, I dont have a problem with drugs so screw you for accusing online and in public of having one. I am perfectly at ease with the drugs I take, we have a good relationship.

I think you do have a problem and that's why you're taking so much offense with it.

[Hypestyles]

The more abandoned structures that can be bulldozed, that leaves less obvious places for the criminal-minded to hide or to take victims to..

[Honky Tonk]

Let me just ask a quick question here. We legalized gambling in Detroit. Did that solve Detroit's gambling problems, or make things worse?

[Django]

Honky Tonk, good question. While I do not believe gambling was ever a big problem in Detroit, gambling has brought a buttload of revenue for our city since the opening of the first casino. It has wrecked the illegal underground gambling because. Daveinwindsor. I dont have time right now but will get back with you asap. I love a good debate, especially when I have the the upper hand. I hope though we can get past the ad hominem BS. You can think what you want about this supposed drug problem of mine and I apologize for calling you a ding dong/ Name calling will not bring us to a conclusion.

Ill be back later, I have to go shoot up,, some photos of Detroit with a friend.

[Pickford-Bentler]

Honky Tonk, good question. While I do not believe gambling was ever a big problem in Detroit, gambling has brought a buttload of revenue for our city since the opening of the first casino. It has wrecked the illegal underground gambling because. Daveinwindsor. I dont have time right now but will get back with you asap. I love a good debate, especially when I have the the upper hand. I hope though we can get past the ad hominem BS. You can think what you want about this supposed drug problem of mine and I apologize for calling you a ding dong/ Name calling will not bring us to a conclusion.

Ill be back later, I have to go shoot up,, some photos of Detroit with a friend.

Gambling is a good question and probably supports your argument. IMO, legalization of gambling is a zero sum game in that gambling addicts now lose all their money in legitimate institutions and any debts they incur due to their habit are settled by bankruptcy, rather than some big dude breaking your legs.

And one of your arguments is that legalization will not cause addicts to do something they are not already doing.

[GUSHI]

the illegal card games/sport gamblin are still happening, people losing everything, all the casino did is excelarate the losses of more people, making it easier to lose your money/home/family.

Gambling is a good question and probably supports your argument. IMO, legalization of gambling is a zero sum game in that gambling addicts now lose all their money in legitimate institutions and any debts they incur due to their habit are settled by bankruptcy, rather than some big dude breaking your legs.

And one of your arguments is that legalization will not cause addicts to do something they are not already doing.

[davewindsor]

Daveinwindsor. I dont have time right now but will get back with you asap. I love a good debate, especially when I have the the upper hand.

I can't tell whether you're trying to be funny or these are those delusions of grandeur. I've been playing with a better hand all week.

[Honky Tonk]

the illegal card games/sport gamblin are still happening, people losing everything, all the casino did is excelarate the losses of more people, making it easier to lose your money/home/family.

Exactly. When, and I'm sure it will, cannibas gets legalized, it too will create a whole new set of addicts and associated problems. It was the same story with alcohol. There are people who's lives are in turmoil, or who will never achieve their potential, because their main focus is having a drink, smoking a doobe, or "hitting it" for a big score. Since addiction to these things supercedes other goals, there will always be the need for money, [[heat, electricity, WATER, cable, cell phones, and Hostess Twinkies). There will be the search for fast, easy, money, and the potential for crime. The crime that will go away will be territorial wars over who gets to sell what in a given area, and petty crimes like possession. I don't see it having much of an impact on crimes like car theft, home invasions, illegal gun sales, or prostitution. In fact, because more time and money will be needed to feed another habit, there is a chance there'll be an increase in crime. I'm for legalization of cannibas, and lately I'm starting to think maybe legalizing some of the harder stuff won't be so bad either. You want to kill yourself with heroin, be my guest. Let mother nature and Darwin sort things out. Let's channel some of that "War On Drugs" money and use it for things actual tax payers need. Last time I heard, which was about 12 years ago, the "War On Drugs" was costing US taxpayers $260 bil yearly.

[Django]

Dave, you may think you have the upper hand but I have the majority. Throughout the thread I counted 12 posters that are open to a new strategy to the WOD's and you have one, that being Gushi. Theres a few on the fence where I could not quite tell but I believe I was very fair in reading every ones posts [[tedious as it was) but feel free to go back and read them. I am not tryin to be a dick, I understand your feelings and yes drugs are bad when abused but you seem to be more about rationalizing the drug war than you are making sense of it. I am not going point to point with you anymore as we have for the past few days as thats been more tedious than going through every post on five pages here. Good luck with your fight.

I believe the war on drug's is just old and in the way of progress to a better world. I dont want to settle for all the deaths and incarcerations, privatized prisons, and the slavery that goes along with the so called war. It is time to move on.

[davewindsor]

Dave, you may think you have the upper hand but I have the majority. Throughout the thread I counted 12 posters that are open to a new strategy to the WOD's and you have one, that being Gushi.

How do you have the majority when you have only 12 posters? There's 5 million people in Metro Detroit. Out of 5 million, that's not a majority. This is not a game. Drug use destroys lives and increases public healthcare and social costs. When users build a tolerance to drugs like heroin and increase their dosages, they run a risk of falling into a coma. When an addict falls into a coma and has to be put in a hospital bed for 8 years, who pays for that? The taxpayer. And hospitalization ain't cheap.

"The other danger of heroin overdose is the long-term physical and mental effects an overdose can have your body. Brain damage can occur if the brain is deprived of oxygen for any length of time; infections or viruses can permanently stay in the blood or organs; and combining heroin with other drugs can bring about long-term psychosis and create fundamental changes in the brain."[[http://casapalmera.com/heroin-overdo...ers-and-myths/)

These are all problems the taxpayer will ultimately have to subsidize to deal with addicts. It's not morally right to put human beings through that kind of punishment and it's not ethically right to make the taxpayer have to subsidize cleaning up the mess caused by the damaging effects of drugs. There's also the economic loss from the crime factor directed against law abiding citizens caused by addicts to pay for their addiction that I can go on and on about.

I believe the war on drug's is just old and in the way of progress to a better world. I dont want to settle for all the deaths and incarcerations, privatized prisons, and the slavery that goes along with the so called war. It is time to move on.

I don't think the war on drugs is old and I think what you call "settling" is the right direction to progress to a better world and a better, more safer City of Detroit for that matter.

[Jimaz]

...I am not going point to point with you anymore....

Wise. Move forward, not back.

... privatized prisons....

Maggots found in food at second Michigan prison

Marlan confirmed the company that hauls trash from the prison made a special trip Tuesday — which wasn’t a normal collection day — to dispose of spoiled food.

This is far more than a "don't pamper prisoners" issue. This is about public health not to mention safety of staff. This is what causes riots and I doubt riots cost less than what's saved by using contractors.

I really wish privatization worked as well as advertised but it doesn't. There have been way too many reports now that it becomes a gravy train for corrupt crony contractors.

[rex]

Why do you even care about American drug policy? It doesn't effect you 1 way or the other.

[davewindsor]

Why do you even care about American drug policy? It doesn't effect you 1 way or the other.

If I visit the City of Detroit and get shot at, robbed or attacked by an addict to pay for their fix, it affects me one way or the other.

[Django]

If drugs were properly dispensed it would be less likely anyone would be shot at or robbed [[did you really get shot at?) I am not saying it will fix all problems but is simply the lesser evil to work with it than against it.

I know very well about overdoses as My friends grandson at 18 OD'ed on what a street dealer sold him as heroin but was actually fetynal. The street dealer did not know how to cut and distribute and there were a rash of deaths, because it was illegal and not regulated. He lasted about ten years in a coma like state before he died, ironically the same week as his Grandmother died who was my friend, a well know Cass Corridor resident who also believed the drug war is a failure. Old age btw.

Going back on my word of not going point to point [[sorry Jimaz, I cannot contain myself lol) I was only speaking of 12 people on this board who disagree with this war, the longest so called war this country has ever had. You have GUSHI at your back. Im sure most people in the burbs do not see the hypocrisy of the WOD's because they live in the burbs and just dont see it up close for what it is. They come down scared and what they dont understand they reach for the simplest solution which would be Lock Them Up.

Things are changing like I said. It will take some more years and as more people realize and talk about the issue, and academics write more articles on this failed system people will eventually follow. Common sense will rule in the end. The most prosperous countries are finaly coming around as we should have years ago. How are the Netherlands doing these days? Switzerland, Portugal? While they prosper and crime rates lower we stagnate, except of course for big pharma and the privatized prison conglomerates, those guys are goin gangbusters.

I read about a vaccine for heroin addiction recently. http://www.scripps.edu/newsandviews/...13/heroin.html an addict or possibly even a child would, I assume take the vaccine once but Im not sure on that but cravings would go away. Of course big pharma is trying to stop this drug from being completed in testing because it would cut into there profits in the opiates they sell and get people hooked on. They are also working on a similar vaccine for cocaine and Meth. This is where our tax dollars should be going instead of the lock em up approach. A better world and not the same ol bullcrap.

I'm really not here to argue, I'm here in hopes of getting people like you Dave to open up and see if you might accept that there may be a better way to do things. There is no shame in realization.

Again, I am sorry I called you a ding dong, I got a little carried away but you did try and out me as an addict, Gushi a crack head. You dont know me and I dont feel that was right.

[Islandman]

People like this will never get that the drug was is not solving any of the actual issues, and are content with the status quo. Never mind the fact that we have several countries to look at that have proven that our drug war is a farce and we are all paying for it, one way or the other. Hell, some are profiting from our prison system.

So let's hear it, davewindsor, how has the current drug policy/war helped you in your quest to not get shot, robbed or attacked at in Detroit by all of our Saturday Night Special wielding crackheads?

[Honky Tonk]

People like this will never get that the drug was is not solving any of the actual issues, and are content with the status quo. Never mind the fact that we have several countries to look at that have proven the our drug war is a farce and we are all paying for it, one way or the other. Hell, some are profiting from our prison system.

So let's hear it, davewindsor, how has the current drug policy/war helped you in your quest to not get shot, robbed or attacked at in Detroit by all of our Saturday Night Special wielding crackheads?

$260 bil a year, think about it. That money is going somewhere for "equipment" and "supplies". Why would the "suppliers" want to end it? Effective or not? On the other hand, just like ending prohibition, it did nothing to alleviate alcoholism, it merely took it out of the hands of criminals. Alcohol by far is the worst killer, and ruins more people's lives, and causes more innocent deaths then drugs. So legalizing it did little to actually stop "crime", or to better people's lives.