Crime in Detroit

[GUSHI]

Can't we jteach criminals how to plant vegetables, and put them on a island, a few hundred mile from the main land.

[Gannon]

I started smoking at 17, even with all the advertisement against cigs, I figured they sell them over th counter, so they couldn't be that bad. now as a teenager/young adult, what not stopping them from thinking the same,when dealing with herion,

You are saying you fell for the obverse of the Gateway Lie then...that if the government bans a thing it must be bad, so what they don't ban is good.

There are distinct problems with such diametric thinking, and you clearly state one of them.

Furthering the ignorance and perpetuating what has proven to be a failed policy is not the solution.

Legalize it all. Let whatever drives Darwin's Theory sort it out.

There is NO equivalency between crimes against persons and what one consumes...whoever brought up making murder and such legal needs to take another look. The only thing similar is that they are all currently against the law...nothing more than that.

[sumas]

Can't we jteach criminals how to plant vegetables, and put them on a island, a few hundred mile from the main land.

Isn't that called Australia?

[Hermod]

Can't we jteach criminals how to plant vegetables, and put them on a island, a few hundred mile from the main land.

You mean rent some piece of "green hell" in New Guinea or the Solomon Islands and take the convicted criminals there? Give them a shovel, a hoe, and a box of seeds and say "we'll be back for you in 25 years".

[Django]

Gushi. Its sounds as if you have some loved ones or family who have the disease of addiction. A disease is what it is and prison is not a cure as disease has no cures. What good can come of locking up someone who is an addict? What good can come of locking someone up who deals when there is another waiting to take there place as the new dealer? You can build all the prisons you desire and you will fill them all but where will that get us? Right now we are on the verge of making privatized prisons the norm in America. Privatized prisons are just wrong in the sense that NOBODY should be making money from imprisonment. To take it a step further private prisons now put their captives to work but I already covered that. I plea to you to think this issue over. I know the harm of drug addiction but enslaving people is not a cure. When you go to prison and get out you are still a criminal, but most likely a better criminal from all you learned inside.
We have built this burden and have to deal with it now, we have a huge amount of people who depend on the illegal drug trade to feed themselves and there families. Furthering this war will only make it worse and a bigger problem down the road. It will not be an easy task taking away all that profit from the streets that the DD's make everyday, they will find other sources of income legal or illegal but furthering the "war" will only make it harder to turn back. AS someone who truly cares I beg you to reconsider.

[davewindsor]

What good can come of locking up someone who is an addict?

How about law, order and discipline for starters? How about not worrying about getting robbed every day to pay for someone's drug addiction?

What good can come of locking someone up who deals when there is another waiting to take their place as the new dealer?

Just because someone else can do something illegal doesn't make it morally right. That's like saying just because someone can beat up and rob someone else walking down the street wearing a gold necklace or expensive sneakers that that makes it right for you to do it. But, I bet this is common thinking in this city among crack addicts who need to pay for their fix. And one of the reasons why this city has such a high homicide and robbery rate.

You can build all the prisons you desire and you will fill them all but where will that get us? Right now we are on the verge of making privatized prisons the norm in America. Privatized prisons are just wrong in the sense that NOBODY should be making money from imprisonment.

It'll get you the Pax Romana--Roman peace. Classic civilizations did it for thousands of years and this was the norm among the ancients. The Romans lasted for thousands of years from 753 BC all the way up to Byzantines in the 1500s and they did it. They must have been doing something right to have lasted for so long. They were known as the world's greatest civilizers and modern governments incorporate a lot of Roman symbols to represent their connection to Rome's past such as the American Eagle [[which is based on the Roman eagle), the mace, latin phrases, city names such as Cincinnati based on the Roman General Cincinnatus, Roman architecture in government buildings, etc. People had respect for the law back then. Their system worked. It's your own opinion that it's wrong, but history shows us something different.

[MotorCityTrikes]

Is one person born good and another bad?Is being born into a poor, single parent home the reason people grow into criminals with no morals or conscience?I’ve seen where rich kids do bad things, take and sell drugs, kill and steal.People with great jobs sometimes do the same.

Life is one choice after another.Everyday each of us chooses the things we do and in which order we do them.I could commit a crime or carjack someone today!But I choose not to. I could try drugs for the first time and get high as a kite shoot down 94 and take out an innocent family but I choose not to.

Satan is real and he takes control of many peoples choices. And I might add lives in and controls most people around the world just watch and listen to the daily news as the OP said. You find a way to rid the world of satan and you’ve solved 99% of the problems.

[GUSHI]

Yes why not, think about it we don't have to house them, feed them, etc. they are a burden on society,

You mean rent some piece of "green hell" in New Guinea or the Solomon Islands and take the convicted criminals there? Give them a shovel, a hoe, and a box of seeds and say "we'll be back for you in 25 years".

[GUSHI]

Django I don't think of it as a disease, I think of it as a choice, with a disease you have no choice, with drugs you do.

Gushi. Its sounds as if you have some loved ones or family who have the disease of addiction. A disease is what it is and prison is not a cure as disease has no cures. What good can come of locking up someone who is an addict? What good can come of locking someone up who deals when there is another waiting to take there place as the new dealer? You can build all the prisons you desire and you will fill them all but where will that get us? Right now we are on the verge of making privatized prisons the norm in America. Privatized prisons are just wrong in the sense that NOBODY should be making money from imprisonment. To take it a step further private prisons now put their captives to work but I already covered that. I plea to you to think this issue over. I know the harm of drug addiction but enslaving people is not a cure. When you go to prison and get out you are still a criminal, but most likely a better criminal from all you learned inside.
We have built this burden and have to deal with it now, we have a huge amount of people who depend on the illegal drug trade to feed themselves and there families. Furthering this war will only make it worse and a bigger problem down the road. It will not be an easy task taking away all that profit from the streets that the DD's make everyday, they will find other sources of income legal or illegal but furthering the "war" will only make it harder to turn back. AS someone who truly cares I beg you to reconsider.

[Dan Wesson]

Django I don't think of it as a disease, I think of it as a choice, with a disease you have no choice, with drugs you do.

Drugs as a cause of crime in Detroit or a symptom of something else?

Drugs doesn't explain a lot of things.

Why not wrap your noodle around something like this?

The Age of Envy and the base animal spirits...


"What is the nature of a creature in which the sight of a value arouses hatred and the desire to destroy? In the most profound sense of the term, such a creature is a killer, not a physical, but a metaphysical one..."

[Crumbled_pavement]

What can stop hoodlum's from ruining the revival of this city? I want to hear what everyone's opinion is and what can stop these cruel criminals.

Simple, Do Something!

We need to stop looking for the magic bullet that will solve all our problems and acting as if every idea is competing against every other idea. Let's try something radical, like nibbling around the edges. Yes, nibble around the edges. If enough people nibble, eventually it all adds up, and we end up taking a serious bite out of crime. Legalizing soft drugs is not contradictory to 3 strikes laws. 3 strikes laws are not contradictory towards social programs. Social programs are not contradictory to neighborhood watch programs. Neighborhood watch programs are not contradictory to broken windows theory. Guess what people, WE CAN DO THEM ALL.

If we can get a 15% reduction* in crime by improving the school system, beefing up social programs, and increasing job opportunities, why wouldn't we do it? Now we're down to only 85% of the crime we had before. Oh, because maybe if we legalize soft drugs we might get a 30% crime reduction*. You see how stupid it is when we try to pit ideas against one another as if they are adversarial? So we'll argue a 15% reduction* in crime vs. a 30% reduction*, when we could simply do both and get 45%. Now we're half way there. Let's do it all. LET'S DO SOMETHING! Stop the stupid bickering and the thinking that we can't do anything until we're all on the same page promoting the same magic bullet. There is no magic bullet.

Here's a partial list of what we should be doing:

Improve schools and part time job opportunities for teens and young adults
Streamline and improve social programs
Provide more recreational and after school opportunities
Neighborhood Watch
Promote more CCW
Improve police response times
Improve police relationships with communities
Better cooperation between police departments in metro area
Broken Windows Theory
Decriminalize Soft Drugs
3 Strikes Laws
Reintegration programs for felons recently released from prison

We can do all of those things and many, many more. We need a mix of environmental improvement and opportunities and strong deterrents/punishments for crimes. It's not a 'either we do this or we do that' type of thing, we all need to be doing something. Let's do it all. Let's nibble around the edges until crime is completely nibbled up.

The thread may now be returned to the regularly scheduled 'my idea is better than your idea' pissing contest.


*These percentages are fictitious, they are placeholders to illustrate a point.

[Django]

How about law, order and discipline for starters? How about not worrying about getting robbed every day to pay for someone's drug addiction?

The reason addicts steal for drugs is that they are so highly overpriced, because they are illegal. If they were regulated there would be no need for thievery. Like I said earlier $10 worth of drugs in one country can be sold for $1000 here and Im not exaggerating.

Just because someone else can do something illegal doesn't make it morally right. That's like saying just because someone can beat up and rob someone else walking down the street wearing a gold necklace or expensive sneakers that that makes it right for you to do it. But, I bet this is common thinking in this city among crack addicts who need to pay for their fix. And one of the reasons why this city has such a high homicide and robbery rate.

This is why I say take the profit out of the street drug game. Distributing drugs is of course not morally right but it will be done one way or another. Like someone said, there is no magic bullet. I believe the lesser evil would be to distribute a safe product as responsibly as can be done instead of leaving it to gangsters with no moral code. Can we agree that we cannot stop drugs and addiction, that they are a part of life in this world whether we like it or not?

It'll get you the Pax Romana--Roman peace. Classic civilizations did it for thousands of years and this was the norm among the ancients. The Romans lasted for thousands of years from 753 BC all the way up to Byzantines in the 1500s and they did it. They must have been doing something right to have lasted for so long. They were known as the world's greatest civilizers and modern governments incorporate a lot of Roman symbols to represent their connection to Rome's past such as the American Eagle [[which is based on the Roman eagle), the mace, latin phrases, city names such as Cincinnati based on the Roman General Cincinnatus, Roman architecture in government buildings, etc. People had respect for the law back then. Their system worked. It's your own opinion that it's wrong, but history shows us something different.

Now your just scaring me by endorsing slavery. I thought we were supposed to be evolving to be better and not just accepting that some people are born into a shit life so thats where they should stay for my greater good.

Is one person born good and another bad?Is being born into a poor, single parent home the reason people grow into criminals with no morals or conscience?I’ve seen where rich kids do bad things, take and sell drugs, kill and steal.People with great jobs sometimes do the same.

Life is one choice after another.Everyday each of us chooses the things we do and in which order we do them.I could commit a crime or carjack someone today!But I choose not to. I could try drugs for the first time and get high as a kite shoot down 94 and take out an innocent family but I choose not to.

Satan is real and he takes control of many peoples choices. And I might add lives in and controls most people around the world just watch and listen to the daily news as the OP said. You find a way to rid the world of satan and you’ve solved 99% of the problems.

Im not even going to start. For me the bible is a manipulating fairy tale.

Django I don't think of it as a disease, I think of it as a choice, with a disease you have no choice, with drugs you do.

Ask any Doctor if addiction is a disease. Are you a Doctor? At one point an addict did make a choice to try drugs and then a few more times but soon the brain is rewired to an addicts brain. There is a physical element involved where it goes past being a choice.

[davewindsor]

The reason addicts steal for drugs is that they are so highly overpriced, because they are illegal. If they were regulated there would be no need for thievery. Like I said earlier $10 worth of drugs in one country can be sold for $1000 here and Im not exaggerating.

Sorry, you're wrong. I've seen people's lives destroyed by drugs like crack cocaine and heroin. Make it cheaper and they'll just do more of it. And when they do more of it, they become more violent, irrational and psychotic plus they develop serious medical and mental health issues and become an even greater burden on the taxpayer funded health care system and social services.

This is why I say take the profit out of the street drug game. Distributing drugs is of course not morally right but it will be done one way or another. Like someone said, there is no magic bullet. I believe the lesser evil would be to distribute a safe product as responsibly as can be done instead of leaving it to gangsters with no moral code. Can we agree that we cannot stop drugs and addiction, that they are a part of life in this world whether we like it or not?

I disagree again. You can stop it by removing the bad elements from society with tools such as three strikes and you're out laws and making prisoners work for their keep like the Romans did.

Now your just scaring me by endorsing slavery. I thought we were supposed to be evolving to be better and not just accepting that some people are born into a shit life so thats where they should stay for my greater good.

You're mixing up American slavery based on physical differences with Roman slavery based on actions. You usually were not born into slavery in Rome.

In ancient Rome, anyone could be a slave. Most slaves in Rome were from defeated armies that surrendered in war or criminals. In fact, Romans were dark skinned and it was more common for someone living in Rome that was white to be a slave than a freeman or citizen. The Roman Emperor Caracalla was thought to be of African descent because he was so dark skinned and he ruled the empire. And this was an empire that lasted for thousands of years. The system worked.

As a side note, the Romans had a policy called "manumission" where they offered a slave freedom as a freeman in Rome after a period of time like 14 years if they worked hard for their slave owners, which is a like a prisoner serving a prison sentence in jail, but not at the taxpayers' expense. This is completely different from US slavery which people were born into based on physical differences and was for life. The Roman system was a very efficient system that worked.

[Django]

Dave I could say your wrong as well. We all know someone whose life has been altered by drugs, not just illegal drugs but legal ones too. We all know someone who has died of lung cancer or liver failure. I dont believe its our right to say what people ingest, smoke or inject. I do not think alcohol or tobacco should be advertised as anything with ill effects should not be. Your also taking a big leap by saying the more drugs people do the more violent they will become, thats just a guess on your part. Many of the hospital visits from drug users are simply because of bad drugs because they ARE NOT regulated, dirty and re used needles which is an easy remedy with needle exchange programs. IMO every pharmacy should have a needle exchange program which would save millions of dollars in health care costs. You seem to think that because drugs would be legal everyone is going to run out and buy their first bag of heroin. Is that what you would do. Drugs are available to anyone, often easier to get by kids than alcohol. Locking people up is not going to solve the problem and it has not made a difference. I am just baffled how you can condone privatized prisons. There is nothing right about making money off of locking someone up and putting them to work for a non violent crime, any crime for that matter because it makes an incentive to lock more people up. Thats a slippery fucking slope. And I am VERY against the three strikes law, California has the highest prison population in a country that has 25% of the worlds prison population mainly due to our drug laws. California has a thriving drug business just like every other city in America, the three strikes laws have done nothing to deter crime but it has put away a lot of people for life on a simple shoplifting charge. Have you checked out Switzerland and how they have been treating drugs, there doing awesome with, have you checked out Portugal where over 10 years ago they legalized all drugs and they are on a huge comeback after a pretty bad decline while following the US model of the WOD's. The Netherlands are also thriving and dealing with the problem other than mass incarceration.

As far as the Roman Empire I find it fascinating and you are obviously well schooled on the subject but our slaves often sit in a 8'X11" cell 23 hours a day for the rest of their lives with little or no contact or touch with anyone. I consider that torture and unless you have been locked in a cell for no less than a few days you probably wouldnt understand.

The drug war is a total and complete frailure and things need to change, Im happy to say things are changing. Im very happy with Eric Holders moves as Attorney General and I hear Obama may possibly be giving clemency to thousands of non violent prisoners before he leaves office [[I may have mentioned that earlier). Prohibition didnt work ten and it doesnt work now. I would argue that cocaine is no more dangerous than booze. Look at all the death that alcohol has caused.

I will say it again, more people die over drugs than by drugs, because they are illegal. Isnt that the main point, to save lives? I cannot think of one person who thinks "man I hope they legalize heroin because as soon as they do Im going to get some of that shit and get high"

[Dan Wesson]

Wow, then Nancy Reagan was right!

Just say no! No to drugs. Don't do the crime, don't do the time. Abstinence is the true solution.

That was easy to say and probably the best way, but alas, easier said than done.

[canuck]

One thing I noticed is that drug busts have not been very productive in Detroit. The small fry are being fished or Small fish getting fried, but the catch is usually low grade. I haven't heard of the hardcore finds that yields multimillion dollar stashes in the news or on these threads.

[davewindsor]

I dont believe its our right to say what people ingest, smoke or inject.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I know that whatever I say isn't going to change that. But, as a taxpayer, I think people should have a right to say what people ingest, smoke or inject because ultimately we get hit with higher taxes to pay for higher public health care costs and social services costs plus damages to personal and public property caused by it.

Your also taking a big leap by saying the more drugs people do the more violent they will become, thats just a guess on your part.

No, it's not a guess. I've not only observed people myself who've become more violent from drugs, but there's plenty of medical data proving it. Even soft drugs such as marijuana has been medically proven to cause bipolar disorder with psychotic features. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811144/

Many of the hospital visits from drug users are simply because of bad drugs because they ARE NOT regulated, dirty and re used needles which is an easy remedy with needle exchange programs.

And people who sell bad drugs also get beaten up for selling it by drug users and their friends and they don't get repeat business, so there's an incentive to sell quality merchandise and that's why the sale of bad drugs makes up only a small amount of those hospital visits.

Needle exchange programs? Come on. Why can't you just buy a new needle or simply sterilize the old one in cup of javex bleach? And how many drug users use needles anyway? You don't need needles to ingest cocaine. Crack heads smoke it and so do marijuana users. You're talking about a small percentage of drug users here.

I am just baffled how you can condone privatized prisons. There is nothing right about making money off of locking someone up and putting them to work for a non violent crime, any crime for that matter because it makes an incentive to lock more people up. Thats a slippery fucking slope.

Why is it wrong if there's a long historical basis for it? That's just your own personal opinion that it's wrong.

Why is it right? Because I'm a taxpayer. Why should I pay the upkeep through taxes of locking someone up who broke the law? They made the choice to break the law. They should have to pay for their own upkeep during their sentence. The Romans, like many other ancient societies, followed such a system for thousands of years and it worked.

A slippery slope is a logically fallacious argument.

And I am VERY against the three strikes law, California has the highest prison population in a country that has 25% of the worlds prison population mainly due to our drug laws. California has a thriving drug business just like every other city in America, the three strikes laws have done nothing to deter crime but it has put away a lot of people for life on a simple shoplifting charge.

Yes, it's been proven to deter crime. I've posted links to this data in many other threads. Think about it. If you remove a criminal from society, that's one less criminal that's going to committing crimes in society at large. Most of society is law abiding and they're not going to take their place. And remember, it's three strikes. So you're not going to be put away for life on your first simple shoplifting charge--that's just an exaggeration.

As far as the Roman Empire I find it fascinating and you are obviously well schooled on the subject but our slaves often sit in a 8'X11" cell 23 hours a day for the rest of their lives with little or no contact or touch with anyone. I consider that torture and unless you have been locked in a cell for no less than a few days you probably wouldnt understand.

Ok, so you'd rather have criminals at large shooting at, beating up and robbing law abiding citizens instead of being locked up to protect law abiding citizens because you think prisons are fundamentally wrong. I guess that's why Detroit has the problems it has today.

The drug war is a total and complete frailure and things need to change, Im happy to say things are changing.

It's not a failure because we're removing the bad elements from society. You can't completely eliminate it because of the way the system has to work with due process under the current laws. The drug dealer selling drugs to children around the schoolyard who is arrested is let free in exchange for acting as a witness and turning on someone higher up in the food chain. That person is let go for turning on someone even higher up. They are letting criminals go because that's the way the current system has to operate. Have mandatory three strike laws and don't allow amnesty for turning on higher ups.

Im very happy with Eric Holders moves as Attorney General and I hear Obama may possibly be giving clemency to thousands of non violent prisoners before he leaves office [[I may have mentioned that earlier).

If they're letting convicted drug dealers go, then this is an obvious mistake.

Look at all the death that alcohol has caused.

Alcohol and drugs are two independent topics. They don't justify each other. Alcohol and drugs are different substances. A person who drinks doesn't necessarily use drugs and vice versa. They don't justify one another because they are two different things. Automobile accidents cause deaths too. To say we should ban automobiles because we ban drugs or legalize drugs because we legalize automobiles is ridiculous because they are two completely different topics.

[GUSHI]

The problem with doctors is I don't trust them, the push pills just like the dealers do, just look at the news a few months ago, a doctor made many believe they had cancer, just so he could fatten his pockets.

The reason addicts steal for drugs is that they are so highly overpriced, because they are illegal. If they were regulated there would be no need for thievery. Like I said earlier $10 worth of drugs in one country can be sold for $1000 here and Im not exaggerating.





This is why I say take the profit out of the street drug game. Distributing drugs is of course not morally right but it will be done one way or another. Like someone said, there is no magic bullet. I believe the lesser evil would be to distribute a safe product as responsibly as can be done instead of leaving it to gangsters with no moral code. Can we agree that we cannot stop drugs and addiction, that they are a part of life in this world whether we like it or not?





Now your just scaring me by endorsing slavery. I thought we were supposed to be evolving to be better and not just accepting that some people are born into a shit life so thats where they should stay for my greater good.



Im not even going to start. For me the bible is a manipulating fairy tale.



Ask any Doctor if addiction is a disease. Are you a Doctor? At one point an addict did make a choice to try drugs and then a few more times but soon the brain is rewired to an addicts brain. There is a physical element involved where it goes past being a choice.

[Django]

Thats one thing we do agree on GUSHI. Not all doctors are looking to get you hooked though. Addiction is well known to be a disease. I understand the basic instinct to say its a choice everyday but anyone knowledgeable on the subject will explain it to you proper, properly. Drug addiction should be treated as a health issue not a criminal issue. Ive never met an addict who wanted to be an addict. It's easy for someone who has never had an addiction to see it as a choice but an addict does not see it that way, does not feel it like that. An addict is most often willing to risk there life to get high, willing to die if need be to keep getting high, that is not so much a choice but a sickness, a disease.

[GUSHI]

Django, I know a lot of people that have kicked habits, myself included, were there is a will, there is a way.

[Django]

I'm familiar with the stats. I went to Hazeldon out in Minnesota, one of the best rehabs in the country, also very expensive [[thank you Mom and Dad). In Hazeldon you have 28 people your in your group and luckily two will actually be able to stay clean, thats just fact. I dont know how serious your addiction was but either you were very determined, resilient, not all that addicted or just lucky with brain chemistry. Most every addict I know are functioning with a job and work ethic. Its not the end of the world. You wont see them doing the crack dance in the middle of Mt Elliot or doin the dope fiend lean on the corner, they live there lives like everyone else without having to steal or stroll, they deal with there addiction like many alcoholics we all know. Yes some do go off the deep end and become homeless and desperate but for the most part they can hang on as miserable as it may be without becoming a criminal. These are the people who do not need to be locked up for there so called crimes. If they break a real law then its time out in a cell. Putting people in prison for drug possession makes no sense to me. Commit a real crime and Im with ya.

You will never stop man from wanting to alter his conscious or his desire to escape for a little while. You will never be able to stop supply and demand, and you cannot stop people from getting high but you can deal with the issue in a humane way other than just saying "throw them in prison and fuck the repercussions" Think about the problems it causes to their family, their children who will be raised luckily by at least one parent. I know of many addicts who still do a good job of raising their children, it may not be the most ideal situation but its better than a one parent household or worse, foster care. That in itself is causing and inflaming the problem of kids growing up without a father or a mother because a parent is in prison on some ridiculous drug charge

What else you got? Im just gettin warmed up on this subject.

I still am wondering why anyone would choose a path that causes more deaths, no one as approached that question. This is from Wiki: By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration [[2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.^[70] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.
Thats 147,000 people dead or missing in seven years just in Mexico alone over the money we spend for drugs. It just gets worse. How much worse will we let it get before we wake up? What are these criminals going to do once we do finally wake up and put them out of business? The numbers will not stop growing until we stop this madness.

Are you pickin up what I'm layin down? 147,000 people, humans like your mom or sister, father or brother gone. Did I mention all the crime it causes here in the states? oh yeah, I did.

I hope we get to talk about Khun Sa soon. He's a favorite opium warlord from SEA.

[davewindsor]

I still am wondering why anyone would choose a path that causes more deaths, no one as approached that question.

Gee, let me think. How about Mexico's average $5 a day wage in a country of 121 million people for starters? That's less than the hourly minimum wage in Michigan assuming they can even find a job. Try paying rent and feeding a family on $5 a day. Thanks for being so US Centric and living in your own little world. There's just too many people in Mexico and not enough industry to employ them all honestly.

This is from Wiki: By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration [[2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.^[70] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.
Thats 147,000 people dead or missing in seven years just in Mexico alone over the money we spend for drugs.

I only saw 60,000 deaths or missing in your questionable link. I don't know how you arrive at 147,000. Regardless, 60,000 people in an "improverished" country of 121 million is not that much. In 2010, Haiti, with a population of 10 million, had an earthquake and between 100,000 to 316,000 died of starvation. From 2010-2012, the famine that hit Somalia led to 260,000 deaths from starvation from a UN study. This is another country that only has 10.2 million people. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-0...hought/4666746 I can cite you many impoverished countries with a fraction of the population of Mexico and much higher death tolls.

Oh and by the way, do you know how many died of starvation and malnutrition in Mexico? 13.4 per 100,000. So, that's about 16,000 in a population of 121 million. http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/c...on/by-country/

If they don't die from working in the illegal drug trade, they will die from something else like starvation. That's just the way it is in impoverished countries. Furthermore, if you legalize drugs in the US, these private militias will just traffic something else like firepower, gas [[did you know gas in Venezuela--that has the highest oil reserves in the world--charges six cents a gallon to the average Venezuelan while the US charges 4 bucks a gallon? That's another opportunity for smuggling), etc. There's also human trafficking. Grabbing those 12 year old daughters and forcing them into prostitution and trafficking them to other countries like the US. Kidnappings will also increase like in South America. I'm sure racketeering will increase and warlords with these huge private militias from the cartels will increase death tolls either against people who don't pay for protection or against other private militias. I'm sure there will be death squads running around in Mexico to control the population like in South America. An insurgency may even break out and the current government may get replaced by a much more corrupt warlord like you see in Africa.

The deaths happening in improverished countries will not stop if you legalize drugs in the US, so quit being so US Centric. There will be deaths from starvation or something else to take its place like cited above. The death tolls will happen no matter what in improverished countries, so it's not relevant to the drug problem in the US and in no way is it even remote justification for drug legalization in the US.

[mwilbert]

Everybody dies. That isn't a legitimate argument for trying to prevent deaths related to the drug trade. There isn't any reason to think that the people who are killed in drug related incidents would have starved to death otherwise.

I would say that the question is whether is more damaging to have drugs illegal, with the concomitant crime, or legal, with the corresponding increase in use and hence in health and behavioral issues. There probably isn't one answer to that question for all drugs. Caffeine, for example, is pretty safe and there probably isn't any reason to restrict its availability. Meth, very dangerous, probably appropriate that it be banned. Most other drugs are someplace in the middle. By most standards of toxicity and induced bad behavior, marijuana is a more sensible drug to legalize than alcohol, and it looks as if we are moving in that direction. A big question, which we will probably learn the answer to fairly soon, is whether legalized marijuana is a substitute for or a complement to alcohol. If it is a substitute, there will be a substantial public health benefit from legalization, to go along with the reduced-crime benefit, because alcohol is more toxic and causes worse behavior than marijuana. If it is a complement, we will see negative health effects, and we will have to see if it outweighs the crime reduction.

[Django]

Dave, "By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration [[2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.^[70] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.^[71][72]"
Its from Wiki like I said, estimates of 120,000 plus 27,000 equals 147,000. If it was only 27,000 I would still be angry at US policy. The US has only around 5000 overdose deaths each year. The US is the main consumer of all drugs so it is a US centric issue. The reason I brought up Mexico is because its not just a US issue. I have no idea why earthquakes and starvation comes into play of US drug laws or in any way related to this discussion, seems like your just grabbing at straws. You say if they dont die from killing each other over drug smuggling routes they will die in an earthquake? Your saying if we legalized drugs, put the cartels out of business that will somehow conjure an earthquake that will kill 147,000 people in Mexico? Come on man! If deaths can be prevented by taking the profit out of the drug business I am for it. Think of all the farmers who could thrive growing Coca, marijuana, and poppies. Farmers in Afghanistan and Burma are also starving because they cannot grow a plant completely native to there land that they have all been growing for 10s of thousands of years.

I hope your next post has something challenging to it but I tell you this, your going to run out of argument. You have not answered many of my questions, at least not properly. Ive answered all of yours. I'm sorry if I come across as a dick, I dont mean to be. Like I said, this is my soapbox everybody should have there one special soapbox they are passionate about so to me this is my duty to try and sway and school. It's not about legalizing drugs so I can go get high legally [[well, maybe a little

I understand the concern that if you take away the illegal drug business criminals will have to find another criminal enterprise and we will have to cross that bridge but thats no excuse to improve what we can now. Look at the big picture, 50 years down the road where will we be if we keep locking people up for these ridiculous so called crimes? we will be a nation of prisons and broken families, fatherless children growing up with no role model but the older gangsters. Mass incarceration is not the answer, it is not working, and it is only getting worse. It's time to cut our losses and start the recovery. Im not saying it should happen overnight but people need to start thinking this way for a future with regulated narcotics.

Mwilbert, I agree of course. I have read studies that increase in drug use would be minimal if they were legal but thats a pretty tough thing to predict I understand but I do believe if decriminalization or legalization were handled properly with laws against advertising, keeping hard drugs thought of as a stigma, and dispensing drugs to registered addicts I do believe the increase would be minimal. Is there anyone here who would go out and start using drugs just because they are legal?

[davewindsor]

Dave, "By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration [[2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.^[70] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.^[71][72]"
Its from Wiki like I said, estimates of 120,000 plus 27,000 equals 147,000. If it was only 27,000 I would still be angry at US policy. The US has only around 5000 overdose deaths each year. The US is the main consumer of all drugs so it is a US centric issue. The reason I brought up Mexico is because its not just a US issue. I have no idea why earthquakes and starvation comes into play of US drug laws or in any way related to this discussion, seems like your just grabbing at straws. You say if they dont die from killing each other over drug smuggling routes they will die in an earthquake? Your saying if we legalized drugs, put the cartels out of business that will somehow conjure an earthquake that will kill 147,000 people in Mexico? Come on man! If deaths can be prevented by taking the profit out of the drug business I am for it. Think of all the farmers who could thrive growing Coca, marijuana, and poppies. Farmers in Afghanistan and Burma are also starving because they cannot grow a plant completely native to there land that they have all been growing for 10s of thousands of years.

You still don't get it. Let's use 120,000 then. 120,000 divided by 6 years is 20,000 people in country of 121 million people. Do you get that? That's 0.000165% of the population. Somalia lost over a percent of their population a year in a famine. These are impoverished countries. Compared to many other improverished countries, Mexico is doing quite well with much lower unnatural death tolls as a percentage of its population.

You can't put the cartels out of business because they will just do something else. That's just how the mafia works. If drug farms were legalized, the cartels would simply run them or charge huge racketeering fees to the farmers and those farmers will still be impoverished. Legal or not, you would never escape those problems. Nothing would change. Mexico is an impoverished country. There's too many impoverished people and these private militias in Mexico have gotten too big.

I didn't say starvation was the only alternative to death tolls if drugs were legalized in Mexico, but think about it. If you're not making money in an overpopulated impoverished country, you're gonna starve to death. Most likely, those working in the drug trade will just switch to doing something else illegal. You're not going to have more farmers than you have now unless you're saying that the demand for drugs will increase significantly in the US from legalization, which I hope you're not saying. More than likely, there will be less farmers because you don't need backup farms to deal with the demand of all the drugs lost from confiscation when fighting with the government.

I still don't think you get this. The death rates in Mexico aren't going to go down from legalization in the US because you're dealing with huge swathes of poverty in Mexico. The deaths will happen regardless.

Look at the big picture, 50 years down the road where will we be if we keep locking people up for these ridiculous so called crimes? we will be a nation of prisons and broken families, fatherless children growing up with no role model but the older gangsters. Mass incarceration is not the answer, it is not working, and it is only getting worse. It's time to cut our losses and start the recovery. Im not saying it should happen overnight but people need to start thinking this way for a future with regulated narcotics.

Look at Detroit today. Why are the crime and homicide rates so high? With the exception of maybe downtown and midtown, this city is in a state of chaos. Mass incarceration is not being done. And it would work because you are removing the bad elements. What part of this last sentence don't you understand? Three strikes and you're out for life. But, leadership doesn't seem to get that and keeps releasing dangerous people. People don't have respect for the law when they see a revolving door justice system. Detroit is going to be all of the US if we don't deal with the drug problem through incarceration and removing the bad elements.

The big picture is a much more safer society in 50 years if you keep removing the bad elements instead of letting them back into society at large to injure more law abiding citizens.

As for broken families, you're going to have them anyway if you legalize drugs. If a father beats the crap out of his children or his wife because of his crack problem, he's not going to be a good role model; it's just encouraging a more criminal and violent society.

Is there anyone here who would go out and start using drugs just because they are legal?

Yes, a lot of people would. It's called "peer pressure". There's mountains of research on the topic, which explains why so many teenagers start smoking cigarettes even though so there's so much advertising on all the health problems surrounding it. If you don't know what it is, basically, if you see a peer whom you respect smoke, you want to try and do it too to fit in and gain their respect or be cool like them, etc.

So if you don't have the worry about the consequences such as going to jail and it's more readily available because it's legalized and your peers are doing it, you're going to have a big increase in drug use and addictions.