Soccer, World Cup and Detroit

[emu steve]

There apparently has been a lot of World Cup fever throughout major parts of the United States, esp areas with very diverse populations.

Good amount of interest in Detroit? Is this story indicative?

http://www.freep.com/article/2014061...na-jeff-seidel

This year's World Cup may get a lot of folks who are luke warm on soccer to re-evaluate their future perspective on the sport, esp. the future of pro soccer in Detroit.

I'd love to see some metrics [[e.g., television viewers in the U.S. AND DETROIT) for this World Cup and say the last five World Cups.

This is a sport with excellent growth potential and I'd think Detroit would really want to move toward being a part of big time pro soccer if there are really indications that the population of S.E. Michigan is conductive to soccer [[folks in D.C. are going crazy over the World Cup as the area is 'more diverse than the United Nations').

Detroit can try to get with it now or wait 10 - 15 years and by then it will be much, much harder to get a franchise once the sport has matured and fully expanded...

This may be O/T and wild speculation but the NFL might face a less than rosy future because of issues like concussions [[doesn't seem much of a problem with the college game and college players only play a few years) and maybe in 20 or 30 years futbol might really be ascending while the NFL might be past its prime. [[I can see a changing picture of college football, NFL, and futbol).

[eliboyer]

I was at Thomas Maggee's last night, it was out-of-control. I'm a USMNT fan, but not like the contingent of American Outlaws there last night. They make for a fun/wild atmosphere. I'm not sure where else people are gathering, if at all, but there were a solid 250 there last night.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Detroit could support an MLS franchise in my opinion. We have a population large and interested enough for it to work here. There are some significant challenges, though. MLS franchises require very substantial investments [[among other things, the league requires a new, soccer-specific stadium, although it allows clubs to play elsewhere while planning and building a new one). While national TV revenue is now decent [[it amounts to about $4M per year per club), local ad revenue is quite low for most franchises. The other 4 sports, when a team is for sale, generate very large interest, and businessmen are often willing to splurge beyond logic for such a rare trophy property. I doubt an MLS franchise would have the same pull. A new MLS franchise requires the license fee [[I remember reading that that is in the ballpark of $100M), plus the cost of the stadium, plus operating costs. So, in order for us to get/keep a team, we need a very deep pocketed person or business to step forward, fully knowing they are unlikely to see a profit on their investment for at least many years [[although, I think, most people realize there is only growth ahead for MLS). Even someone like Dan Gilbert is not a very likely candidate. For all the great work he's done and still doing downtown, each of his investments seems to have a clear path to profitability. The soccer team would be a huge shot in the dark. Here's to hoping!

[Hermod]

Soccer World Cup

"Scoring almost at will, Lower Slobbovia dominated Elbonia in a 2-0 blowout".

[corktownyuppie]

Detroit could support an MLS franchise in my opinion. We have a population large and interested enough for it to work here. There are some significant challenges, though. MLS franchises require very substantial investments [[among other things, the league requires a new, soccer-specific stadium, although it allows clubs to play elsewhere while planning and building a new one). While national TV revenue is now decent [[it amounts to about $4M per year per club), local ad revenue is quite low for most franchises. The other 4 sports, when a team is for sale, generate very large interest, and businessmen are often willing to splurge beyond logic for such a rare trophy property. I doubt an MLS franchise would have the same pull. A new MLS franchise requires the license fee [[I remember reading that that is in the ballpark of $100M), plus the cost of the stadium, plus operating costs. So, in order for us to get/keep a team, we need a very deep pocketed person or business to step forward, fully knowing they are unlikely to see a profit on their investment for at least many years [[although, I think, most people realize there is only growth ahead for MLS). Even someone like Dan Gilbert is not a very likely candidate. For all the great work he's done and still doing downtown, each of his investments seems to have a clear path to profitability. The soccer team would be a huge shot in the dark. Here's to hoping!

I agree with your general sentiments regarding the present, but also to the OP sentiment that a franchise is a matter of when, not if.

First, ours was the first generation [[I'm 36) where almost every kid in suburban America played soccer at some level. And right now there is a big push to bring it into the inner city. With the DCFC now bringing 3,000+ to view their games and the DCFL having no problem fielding 20-30 teams with 20-30 players each, we are reaching a "point of no return" for soccer interest. Other anecdotal data, 3 of my friends [[who aren't really soccer hooligans) invited me to Windsor to the sportsbook to watch World Cup and gamble on soccer.

I'd say in the next 20-30 years soccer will start to become pretty mainstream, making the ESPN Sportscenter highlights every night, and having a competitive indoor and outdoor league. I don't see it competing with football in the fall, but certainly there's room for it during the summer months. With baseball happening every day, it shouldn't be a problem for people to skip a game here and there to watch soccer.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I agree with your general sentiments regarding the present, but also to the OP sentiment that a franchise is a matter of when, not if.
.

I think that is undoubtedly true, but the "when" could be a very long time. MLS has stated it wants to increase by 4 teams by 2020 [[one of them will be Miami, assuming the Beckham-led group is able to put together the stadium deal). MLS will likely spend at least several years before expanding again. There are more than 3 other cities that could be a good home to an MLS club. If we didn't get one of those, I doubt we would have a franchise here and playing before the later 2020's at the earliest. To be one of the 3 remaining cities, we need not only to be a city that would support it [[which I think we already are), but a city that has a potential owner and a solid business plan in place. That we don't have yet.

About soccer being mainstream, I think it already is. Enough people watch and follow soccer already to keep in on TV and in the press. Not just during the World Cup, there are bars in many cities that show soccer on their big screens.

One difference between soccer and the other major sports, though, for Americans: MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA are pretty much agreed to be the best leagues in their sports in the world. MLS does not feature the cream of the crop of the international pool of players [[although they are still quite solid, and more than a few world soccer stars spend a few seasons in MLS later in their career). True devotees of soccer in the US often "follow" a favorite league or club elsewhere, and will continue to do so, even when their hometown gets a team. But that's not a bad thing, it just means that people watch and follow soccer differently than they do the other 4 sports.

[Hypestyles]

So where could/would a soccer-specific stadium even bebuilt in the general downtown vicinity? Or, by cultural/economic default, would it end up in Western Wayne,Oakland or Macomb? side note- what Detroit city high schools even have a soccer team at this point?

[corktownyuppie]

So where could/would a soccer-specific stadium even bebuilt in the general downtown vicinity? Or, by cultural/economic default, would it end up in Western Wayne,Oakland or Macomb? side note- what Detroit city high schools even have a soccer team at this point?

Agree with Mikey that it'll be a long time, though my feeling is more like 10 years, not 20. But certainly not to quibble over details...from my perspective [[and I'm kind of a long-term thinker to a fault sometimes)...whether it's 10 years or 20 years, it's on its way.

I think both culturally and commercially speaking, you could totally justify a soccer specific stadium near where Two James Distillery is on the west side of Corktown. Southwest Detroit with its Mexican heritage is already flush with soccer players and soccer fans. Another possible location could be on Gratiot just east of the Eastern Market area. That has the advantage of being relatively close to highway access as well as other stadiums/entertainment. Being right off the Dequindre Cut wouldn't hurt, providing it another access point for pedestrians.

As far as soccer teams in the city, the PSL is notably absent. I'd say most of the Catholic middle schools and high schools have soccer. There are few people from the DCFL that are spreading soccer into the neighborhoods and starting up teams there. The kids love it, and it's a very inexpensive sport to play, so it's very inclusive by nature.

I'm not saying that it would ever take over basketball or football. But in 10 years, you'll have a very viable market for soccer in Detroit. But say I'm wrong...could be 20. In the big scheme of things, that's still just a splinter of time.

[dtowncitylover]

side note- what Detroit city high schools even have a soccer team at this point?

I believe Mumford still does, don't quote me on this. A friend of mine invited me to their game against Southwestern on Saturday to surprise some of her old students, as she used to work there. I believe she taught at Mumford. So that would be at least 2.

[emu steve]

So where could/would a soccer-specific stadium even bebuilt in the general downtown vicinity? Or, by cultural/economic default, would it end up in Western Wayne,Oakland or Macomb? side note- what Detroit city high schools even have a soccer team at this point?

I wouldn't mind seeing one behind the Fox but it would have the same parcel acquisition problems as for the new arena.

We've had these discussions before but soccer stadiums can do double duty as football stadium for football games too large for a high school stadium [[but there are few of them, I guess).

What about Temple/Charlotte and west of 4th? [[Don't know what is there). Is there housing there now?

How about west of 3rd between Ledyard and Temple [[Don't know what's there). Is that a large parking lot. Build it there! Get rid of parking lots!!!!

Time to eat up some of those blocks, which I think are in the entertainment district but not exactly causing developers to droll.

[EastsideAl]

"Catch Detroit's Expreeessss!" Ah, the halcyon days of professional soccer in the greater Detroit area. I went out to the Silverdome for several of their games [[the combination of the father of a friend of mine being one of the assistant coaches, and a girlfriend and a sister who were very good soccer players helped). I saw the great Trevor Francis during his brief, but stellar, time with the team. It was a shame they couldn't hold on to him, but his rising star drew a million British Pounds from an English team and there was no way to compete with that! My sister even had one of their bright orange jersey's with that logo of a muscle car [[with a face!) heading a ball.

Despite playing before crowds that hovered around the league average [[14,000 - which could at times make the Silverdome seem like a air-domed tomb), and attracting over 20,000 to playoff games, the owners soon saw the handwriting on the wall of the NASL and got out after 3 years while the getting was good.

And before that was William Clay Ford's ill-fated venture with the Detroit Cougars. They were regularly pushed out of their nominal home at Tiger Stadium and I believe were the last team to play a home game at U of D Stadium [[they also even played at Keyworth Stadium in Hamtramck).

But undoubtedly the highest level soccer/football game ever played around here was the 1-1 draw between Brazil and Sweden at the Silverdome in the 1994 World Cup [[these 2 teams would meet again in the semi-final at the Rose Bowl). This was the last of the 4 games played in Pontiac during that World Cup, which drew an average of well over 70,000 fans per game.

I think there's more than enough market around here for MLS soccer. And goodness knows there's plenty of space to build a stadium somewhere. But, despite being a great sports city in general, Detroit is now a vacant bankrupt disaster in the national mind, and is probably a really tough sell right now to leagues looking to expand. Still, Detroit is one of the largest metro areas without an MLS team, so I think it will happen eventually.

Maybe they could bring back this awesome logo too:

[corktownyuppie]

But, despite being a great sports city in general, Detroit is now a vacant bankrupt disaster in the national mind, and is probably a really tough sell right now to leagues looking to expand.

Most business people [[who generally are familiar with bankruptcy) see the bankruptcy as a positive, not a negative. An investment firm from NY just bought the CPA building for 900k. Chinese investors are buying up downtown buildings. Etc.

I think that determining whether or not the demand is there yet is the biggest question. Bankruptcy is actually just an added plus in the pros and cons.

[emu steve]

Most business people [[who generally are familiar with bankruptcy) see the bankruptcy as a positive, not a negative. An investment firm from NY just bought the CPA building for 900k. Chinese investors are buying up downtown buildings. Etc.

I think that determining whether or not the demand is there yet is the biggest question. Bankruptcy is actually just an added plus in the pros and cons.

I agree.

Smart business people believe in this smart mantra:

"Buy low and sell high, not [[the way most are inclined to do) Buy high and sell low."

Detroit WITH bankruptcy is a great chance to buy low [[oh, Dan Gilbert has been telling us for some time now with his buying behavior. As prices rise, Dear Dan will probably buy less.)

Bet lot of monied folks bought real estate property and buildings dirt cheap and are now richer today because they did.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Behind the Fox would be a good location for a soccer stadium, with one drawback: the land in that area is getting more expensive by the day. Same, too, for anything in Midtown. Several sites in Corktown would work; my preference is for the Tiger stadium site. East Gratiot could work in several ways, except for one real drawback: there is no natural location where patrons would be flow into surrounding bars and restaurants. But whatever. Stadium siting is putting the cart before the horse. An owner or ownership group needs to emerge and front the money. Then the specifics will start to matter.

[Bham1982]

Most business people [[who generally are familiar with bankruptcy) see the bankruptcy as a positive, not a negative. An investment firm from NY just bought the CPA building for 900k. Chinese investors are buying up downtown buildings. Etc.

The entire CPA building block was bought for 900k, an absurdly low number.

So basically you can buy an entire block in possibly the hottest Detroit neighborhood for less than developable [[former) farmland in an exurban township with good schools.

If that's the sales comp being used to show a revival, I hate to see the other sales comps. Property values are incredibly low, as the investment community does not yet see evidence of any turnaround in Detroit.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

If that's the sales comp being used to show a revival, I hate to see the other sales comps. Property values are incredibly low, as the investment community does not yet see evidence of any turnaround in Detroit.

Bham, I think you are missing a key point on Detroit's property revival [[at least as far as downtown/midtown/corktown is concerned). Until the last couple of years, you could hardly give land away in Detroit. Now, people are paying real money for land and buildings. Yes, the value is still MUCH lower than comps in both our suburbs and other major cities. But it doesn't sit there forever rotting anymore. And, also note, the land and buildings being bought and sold are being actively built on or renovated, often by private sector tenants. The patient may not be ready to be discharged yet, but has gone from clinically dead to stable condition.

[emu steve]

Behind the Fox would be a good location for a soccer stadium, with one drawback: the land in that area is getting more expensive by the day. Same, too, for anything in Midtown. Several sites in Corktown would work; my preference is for the Tiger stadium site. East Gratiot could work in several ways, except for one real drawback: there is no natural location where patrons would be flow into surrounding bars and restaurants. But whatever. Stadium siting is putting the cart before the horse. An owner or ownership group needs to emerge and front the money. Then the specifics will start to matter.

I DO hear you.

IF I were Gilbert or Ilitch, I'd take a flier and buy say two blocks and hold it for a soccer stadium [[for themselves or others).

IF a MLS team can't be lined up, offering that site as the stadium requirement, then the site can be flipped for housing or other usages.

I ask: What are the status of those blocks near 640 Temple around 3rd or 4th?

They are within the entertainment district so it could share parking and any bars/eateries will spring up once the arena is up.

[corktownyuppie]

The entire CPA building block was bought for 900k, an absurdly low number.

So basically you can buy an entire block in possibly the hottest Detroit neighborhood for less than developable [[former) farmland in an exurban township with good schools.

If that's the sales comp being used to show a revival, I hate to see the other sales comps. Property values are incredibly low, as the investment community does not yet see evidence of any turnaround in Detroit.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the conclusion then.

First, you couldn't give that building away 6 years ago. So when values go from zero to 900k, I'd say that's some kind of an inflection point.

Second, one can't compare brownfield properties with vacant land. Vacant land is vacant. It's a blank slate. There are no demolition costs. You can building anything you want on it. The CPA building is the perfect example of why redevelopment is so hard in the city. Whoever buys it will start out with the choice of spending a lot of money to demolish just to get to vacant land, or they will spend an even more ridiculous amount of money to renovate. There are no either choices.

The one thing you and I agree on is that property values are incredibly low. Where we differ is that you are comparing them to performing properties in the suburbs. I'm comparing them to where they were 5 years ago.

The investment community sees plenty of evidence of a Detroit rebound. Even my contacts at Washtenaw County banks are expressing an interest in doing some development deals.

But just because it's happening doesn't mean that it's happening all over the city. And just because it's happening doesn't mean that it's competing with Birmingham or Ann Arbor.

This is the stage for the vulture buyers, not the blue chip buyers.

[emu steve]

Attachment 23750

If I'm following this correctly, the city owns a block on 3rd between Temple and Charlotte, inside the entertainment zone.

I think the state has a big parking lot next to 640 Temple and maybe the city could get another adjacent block so that the site would be large enough for a 20K+ seat soccer stadium.

E.g., All of the block between 3 and 4th and Temple and Charlotte + add adjacent land north of Charlotte say 150 yards and 1/4 of the block bounded by 3rd and Temple extending say 150 yards north beyond Charlotte.

That land looks almost completely unused except for some parking for 640 Temple.

[mwilbert]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the conclusion then.

First, you couldn't give that building away 6 years ago. So when values go from zero to 900k, I'd say that's some kind of an inflection point.

Exactly. The interesting point isn't the absolute value of the property, but the fact that there is interest from outside the circle of local parking slumlords, and the trend. There is obviously no comparison between the value of land in even the hottest parts of Detroit and any interesting part of a normal city, but before you can have expensive property, you have to have some kind of predictably functioning property market, where there is at least some amount of liquidity, so that lenders have reason to think that they might be able to get their money out in case a borrower defaults, and Detroit is moving in that direction, which is huge.

[emu steve]

Attachment 23750

If I'm following this correctly, the city owns a block on 3rd between Temple and Charlotte, inside the entertainment zone.

I think the state has a big parking lot next to 640 Temple and maybe the city could get another adjacent block so that the site would be large enough for a 20K+ seat soccer stadium.

E.g., All of the block between 3 and 4th and Temple and Charlotte + add adjacent land north of Charlotte say 150 yards and 1/4 of the block bounded by 3rd and Temple extending say 150 yards north beyond Charlotte.

That land looks almost completely unused except for some parking for 640 Temple.

Here is a better graphic from Detroit News showing lands which ILITCH controls.



So Ilitch owns a block and plus some other adjacent land and would need a lot more to have a buildable site for a stadium.

[emu steve]

Here is a relevant, recent article:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...TS07/306130031

BTW, I was doing more looking and a lot of graphics produced during the arena site discussion had Ilitch's 3rd option opposite the Motor City Casino. So if that site would have worked for an arena, why not a soccer stadium?

BTW2: IF Duggan goes USL route and then hopes to go MLS, I would agree that Wayne State's football stadium could serve as a temporary home until a 20K+ seat stadium built, maybe within the entertainment district.

[trstar]

I believe Mumford still does, don't quote me on this. A friend of mine invited me to their game against Southwestern on Saturday to surprise some of her old students, as she used to work there. I believe she taught at Mumford. So that would be at least 2.

www.rosedalesoccerleague.org

[emu steve]

Here is a rendering of what D.C. United has proposed for [[drum roll) D.C.

http://www.bizjournals.com/washingto...tml%3Fpage%3D2

It shows the proposed stadium which appears to be two city blocks, fr. R. St. S.W to T. St. S.W [[those are the north/south streets) and 2nd to 1st streets S.W. [[if D.C. can build in those two blocks, Detroit would have no problems doing so just opposite the MC Casino out by Temple).

The block bounded by S and T and 1st and 1/2 streets is PEPCO generators. Ugly but will need to be camouflaged.

I assume the block between R and S [[from 1st to 1/2 streets) will be retail or whatever. That land has real potential. I assume other blocks between the soccer stadium and Nationals Park will develop.

There is a full block of surface parking at 1st/2nd and T. Street S.W.

Flip on satellite view and one can see what appears to be a salt storage dome and sand operations [[I drove through the area a week ago. It looks every bit as gritty - actually a LOT more - in person).

https://maps.yahoo.com/businesses/?l...tionals%20park

[emu steve]

For those who have followed development in D.C., it is my guess that a soccer stadium there leads to almost complete redevelopment of what is known as "Buzzard Point" [[a number of posters here are familiar with that designation) and could take development all the way to the water front. Just to the left is Fort McNair and the National Defense University [[I think that is what it is called).

For Detroit, putting a 20K stadium inside the entertainment district by Temple [[west of Cass Park and bounded by Grand River) would solidify that part of the entertainment district and essentially leave the areas behind the Fox as the biggest undeveloped area. I assume the 'close in' parts nearest to the arena would develop fairly quickly. Valuable land there.