I-375 New Options

[motz]

I wouldn't go that far, as I'm sure that there are multiple reasons, but it is sort of true. I think I understand the dichotomy now. The LP folks who oppose this seem to be looking at it as keeping bad things out, whereas I see it as making them more connected to good things, but if you think of I-375 as being a valuable buffer, of course you would want to keep it. Assuming downtown continues to improve and expand, they may change their minds, but by then it may be too late for this project.

Yep, they will oppose it and NIMBY the hell out of these proposals. Then when the eastern edge of Downtown has been built up/restored/etc and is flourishing, they will whine whine whine whine about how MDOT wronged them by leaving their formerly-precious freeway in place, how their property values aren't going up because of the evil State Run Things, etc.

Plus I don't think many outside of LP are against a plan that spends up to 50% less than a full rebuild while also helping make that end of downtown a bit more visually appealing. We can all agree I-375 and the Jefferson/375 exchange is ugly and not at all appealing as an "entrance to downtown".

[animatedmartian]

Plus I don't think many outside of LP are against a plan that spends up to 50% less than a full rebuild while also helping make that end of downtown a bit more visually appealing. We can all agree I-375 and the Jefferson/375 exchange is ugly and not at all appealing as an "entrance to downtown".

Also, in whatever hypothetical future where mass transit is actually of value to this region, not having that interchange will make putting light rail up Jefferson that much easier or at least have less possible conflicts with cars speeding off/on to the freeway and into passing streetcars.

[animatedmartian]

Mlive has images of the proposed 375/75 interchange and Jefferson changes.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...e_downtow.html

[Honky Tonk]

Before everyone gets too carried away with pictures of trees and kiddies with balloons eating ice cream cones, on 6-18-14, Tigers vs. KC @ 1:08 p.m. I highly suggest everyone take Woodward, from Hart Plaza North, then East on Mack, @ 3:45 p.m. If you don't have a car, use your bike or walk. Then let's meet here on 6-19-14, and discuss whether you'd buy one of the condo's around the Lafayette/375 area, if that traffic was going through your neighborhood 365 days a year.

[animatedmartian]

Before everyone gets too carried away with pictures of trees and kiddies with balloons eating ice cream cones, on 6-18-14, Tigers vs. KC @ 1:08 p.m. I highly suggest everyone take Woodward, from Hart Plaza North, then East on Mack, @ 3:45 p.m. If you don't have a car, use your bike or walk. Then let's meet here on 6-19-14, and discuss whether you'd buy one of the condo's around the Lafayette/375 area, if that traffic was going through your neighborhood 365 days a year.

The irony is that you'll be going past some condos and homes that are directly along Woodward and some on Mack. I'm pretty sure the residents of Brush Park get considerably more through traffic than Lafayette Park. Traffic is going to increase in these neighborhoods if there are to be eventually more people living downtown, regardless of whatever happens to 375. It's called urban living and it's what you sign up for when you buy a property in a downtown area. If you choose to ignore that fact, then very few people are going to have sympathy for you. If the residents of LP [[or Brush Park, or any residential area within a mile of downtown) wish to live in a quiet and low traffic neighborhood, there's no shortage of suburban neighborhoods both within Detroit and around the metro area.

It's a valid complaint about drunken sports fans and their littering/loitering and parking habits, but that's almost completely unrelated to 375 and definitely a direct effect of having multiple downtown stadiums. That's an entirely separate issue.

[southen]

375 or whatever they build there will still be the path of least resistance for entering or leaving downtown. rivard and antietam wont get people trying to leave downtown to where they need to be, which is one reason why i think the traffic concerns are a bit exaggerated.

event traffic and parking is a much bigger problem in the area and concern for the residents. if the city were to restrict parking in the area i think that would alleviate many of the concerns of residents. most of the break ins we had this past year were on event days and we had to double security.

[Huggybear]

I think it is ironic when I hear all of you complain about what the people who live around there want as opposed to what you have been spoon-fed by the activists who really have an ulterior motive.

You complain MDOT never listens and has their heads up their butts then you complain about what those in the neighborhood want. Can't have it both ways.

This is absolutely true, and I'm sure that people in Lafayette Park will stop being obstreperous about a huge road project on their doorstep as soon as the Corktown people stop losing their minds over the idea of a Target [[or whatever big mainstream retail) on the Tiger Stadium site. Or Palmer Park people about a racetrack at the state fair grounds.

For the out-of-towners who may not have seen the Parsons Brinkerhoff presentation, the gist from MDOT was basically this: "Well, here are these cool freeway replacement projects in other cities. But sorry, we're not able to do decking [[covering even 1/2 a mile of freeway), roundabouts, or coaxial public transit because they [[a) cost too much money; [[b) are too difficult to move massive traffic through; or [[c) are at the mercy of the region's lack of a coordinated transit plan [[this was on the display boards). Oh, and by the way, the option that yields the most redevelopable land just has a 9-acre grassy ditch in the middle of it for the conceivable future [[in essence, a Dequindre Cut to nowhere) - and we have no idea why we are creating more developable land in the face of city planning that is designed to control supply. But hey, we can give you more 50% more paving than you already have and [[presumably) more light polution from lighting 12-14 lanes of surface streets."

So you take that to a group of high-income, highly educated residents [[some of whom were here for Black Bottom and the original LP disruption) and what do you realistically think the answer will be? Unconditional love? If you don't feel yourself disconnected from downtown, or do and like it, then the idea of "enhanced non-motorized connectivity" essentially sounds like it is designed to increase foot traffic into your neighborhood. And if you believe that I-375 is bad, the best case is that you'll just see it as a huge construction nightmare. And more realistically, that this is an MDOT sham that's not really any type of meaningful change.

If you think the local residents' reaction is negative, you're not seeing the comments that you can be sure will come from GM, BCBS,* Greektown Casino, the stadiums, and Gilbert in general. They don't have an interest in barriers; they want high-speed access.

*I got a kick out of the comment that BCBS might want more land. If they felt constrained by space, they could build on the surface lot that just replaced their old garage. Or, since the medical records building that takes up a huge amount of space opposite Assumption Cathedral is becoming obsolete, they could build there.

That said, the support is more uniform among locals for fixing the configuration of the Gratiot Connector, which is inarguably a bigger connectivity problem than I-375. There is a separate set of alternatives north of Gratiot that has been given virtually no media play - but would either create a new Brush Street exit for I-75 [[corresponding to I-375 Options 1-3) or surface the road there [[corresponding to I-375 Options 4-6).

At the end of the day, it seems unlikely that any long-term stakeholder [[people who live, work or both in the vicinity) is going to sign off on what has been presented - which to Ghettopalmetto's question means that the only people who are really going for it are people who have some issue with the idea of the status quo, in other words, activists. Or top-down bureaucrats at MDOT. What a match made in heaven!

HB

[erikd]

much of LP is older and i think many of them dont walk downtown to begin with. in addition to that from what ive gathered and seen comment wise, many people enjoy their easy freeway access and some have concerns that the noise will be too much... i know i plan on heading to eastern market thursday and voting for proposal 4.

I don't know why people think that bringing 375 to an at-grade boulevard at Monroe will impede easy freeway access to Lafayette Park. This is nonsense. Bringing the freeway out of the ditch at Monroe/Lafayette will IMPROVE easy freeway access to Lafayette Park.

As it stands now, all the traffic going to Greektown, BCBS, and Lafayette Park, is forced down to one lane, which is constantly backed up onto the freeway.

If 375 was reconfigured to come out of the ditch at Monroe/Lafayette, there could be one lane dedicated to right turns into the Greektown Casino parking garage and westbound Lafayette, one lane with an option to also turn right on westbound Lafayette or go straight, one lane dedicated to thru traffic, and one lane for turning left on Lafayette or continue through.

This situation would clearly make it easier and quicker to access downtown and Lafayette Park than the current configuration that causes constant backups at the Lafayette exit.

[erikd]

There is a misconception that I-375 creates easy freeway access to downtown Detroit, but the reality is actually the complete opposite. I-375 was designed to provide easy freeway access to the tunnel, and it does that AT THE EXPENSE OF providing easy freeway access to Lafayette Park, the riverfront, the RenCen, East Jefferson, Greektown, the core business/financial district, and the rest of downtown.

I-375 only benefits drivers who are going to Jefferson and Randolph. It is a detriment to everybody else.

There are only two vehicular destinations at Jefferson and Randolph: the tunnel and the Ford garage. Every other place that you would drive a car to would be easier to access if I-375 was reconfigured into a surface street.

[DetroitPlanner]

At the end of the day, it seems unlikely that any long-term stakeholder [[people who live, work or both in the vicinity) is going to sign off on what has been presented - which to Ghettopalmetto's question means that the only people who are really going for it are people who have some issue with the idea of the status quo, in other words, activists. Or top-down bureaucrats at MDOT. What a match made in heaven!

HB

Yep the public participation process is far from perfect. The biggest issue is 99 percent of the folks out there are ambivalent to what happens. The other 1%? Half of them should be wearing tin foil hats and waiting for the martians. That leaves about 0.5% who care, and most of them have drawn lines in the sand.

I for one am a big believer in public involvement, but it needs to start much earlier and most need of the public to be educated by someone else than those with an axe to grind. Someone who can show the benefits and shortfalls of each proposal. The problem with that is that those with an agenda are often the loudest. In fact this board sometimes acts just like that shouting down those who may be contrary to the status quo.

[DetroitPlanner]

There is a misconception that I-375 creates easy freeway access to downtown Detroit, but the reality is actually the complete opposite. I-375 was designed to provide easy freeway access to the tunnel, and it does that AT THE EXPENSE OF providing easy freeway access to Lafayette Park, the riverfront, the RenCen, East Jefferson, Greektown, the core business/financial district, and the rest of downtown.

I-375 only benefits drivers who are going to Jefferson and Randolph. It is a detriment to everybody else.

There are only two vehicular destinations at Jefferson and Randolph: the tunnel and the Ford garage. Every other place that you would drive a car to would be easier to access if I-375 was reconfigured into a surface street.

No disrespect but there are numerous bridges between Lafayette Park and the CBD that keeps continuity.

There are a lot more destinations using I-375 than just the two you mention. Greektown, Ren-Cen, Cobo, Hart Plaza, E Jefferson Neighborhoods, Millender Center's apartments and hotel are just a few. All of the reconfigurations also set-up the parking lots along the E Riverfront to be redeveloped in a very pedestrian orientated development. It is planning for people to use cars less, not take them away completely. It is not just Jefferson and Randolph.

[CrashDummy]

There is a misconception that I-375 creates easy freeway access to downtown Detroit, but the reality is actually the complete opposite. I-375 was designed to provide easy freeway access to the tunnel, and it does that AT THE EXPENSE OF providing easy freeway access to Lafayette Park, the riverfront, the RenCen, East Jefferson, Greektown, the core business/financial district, and the rest of downtown.

Totally agree. At the busiest times like rush hour and game days, exits to the service drives are totally backed up, making the only reasonable choice to go all the way down to Jefferson then turn back North. Try getting off at the Lafayette exit on a Friday game night, then explain how Greektown Casino wants to keep 375 as is.

[animatedmartian]

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ions/19841989/

The DDA will recommend what should be done to I-375 based on studies and community input.

[brizee]

http://www.degc.org/degc-news/commun...ives-postponed

It's JUST shy of a year since any display of findings was cancelled and there's not even been a hint of transparency about it.

I hate the way this area conducts business.

[ndavies]

http://www.degc.org/degc-news/commun...ives-postponed

It's JUST shy of a year since any display of findings was cancelled and there's not even been a hint of transparency about it.

I hate the way this area conducts business.

You have to have money to rebuild things. Until the State figures out how to raise the money to fund the road work, this project and a hole bunch of others are stalled.

Look at the failing I-75 rouge bridge. It just needed another emergency repair this week. That thing also needs to be rebuilt and won't be for at least two more years.

[Wesley Mouch]

Totally agree. At the busiest times like rush hour and game days, exits to the service drives are totally backed up, making the only reasonable choice to go all the way down to Jefferson then turn back North. Try getting off at the Lafayette exit on a Friday game night, then explain how Greektown Casino wants to keep 375 as is.

Agreed. I-375 doesn't work. It turns out people don't go where the freeway planner thought. The planners evidently thought more traffic was going to Jefferson -- when the truth is most want to get off the ditch earlier.

[Scottathew]

then explain how Greektown Casino wants to keep 375 as is.

I know I'm replying to a very old post, but does anyone know if Greektown has actually expressed that it wants the freeway as-is? I think people may be confusing the investment in the exit ramp with wanting the freeway.

With Gilbert owning it, I would imagine he'd be all over turning I-375 into something different, that doesn't artificially wall in the CBD.

[iheartthed]

I know I'm replying to a very old post, but does anyone know if Greektown has actually expressed that it wants the freeway as-is? I think people may be confusing the investment in the exit ramp with wanting the freeway.

With Gilbert owning it, I would imagine he'd be all over turning I-375 into something different, that doesn't artificially wall in the CBD.

It seems like a no-brainer that Greektown would want to keep the freeway. The only thing they care about is funneling people into their casino. The real question is why should this decision be based in any way whatsoever on what Greektown Casino wants?

[Gpwrangler]

MDOT generally doesn't remove roads.

[DetroitBoy]

Why don't they build parks over the top of 375 like they have in Oak Park for 696? They could make a couple of these which would give green space and connect layfayette park. Taking that out is a huge effort with enormous expense. With the parks over it, the expressway can be available for high traffic volumes.

[Gistok]

I know I'm replying to a very old post, but does anyone know if Greektown has actually expressed that it wants the freeway as-is? I think people may be confusing the investment in the exit ramp with wanting the freeway.

With Gilbert owning it, I would imagine he'd be all over turning I-375 into something different, that doesn't artificially wall in the CBD.

I don't think that he wants the freeway next to his casino parking structure to be removed.

In order to get to the larger [[more income) MGM Grand and MotorCity Casinos... folks are just a freeway exit ramp away from them. Why should he want it less convenient for folks to get to his casino than the other two??

His paying for the improved freeway exit ramps makes that pretty clear.

[ABetterDetroit]

Is not all these points in this thread moot if MDOT remains way underfunded?

Seriously, if the political power running the show keeps saying that they will get the proper funding but in reality never do it.... NOTHING is going to be business as usual.

P.S. Tax the God Damn gasoline and diesel fuel and move the fuck on to another real problem in this state you useless sack of Lansing turds. Prolly to busy banging each other out in the parking lot and directing thier staff to cover it up to hear me.

[erikd]

I don't think that he wants the freeway next to his casino parking structure to be removed.

In order to get to the larger [[more income) MGM Grand and MotorCity Casinos... folks are just a freeway exit ramp away from them. Why should he want it less convenient for folks to get to his casino than the other two??

His paying for the improved freeway exit ramps makes that pretty clear.

Based on the responses to the proposed elimination of I-375, it seems clear that there is much confusion and misunderstanding as to what this freeway elimination would look like.

Based on the the responses to the proposed elimination of I-375, it seems clear that there is also much confusion and misunderstanding about the purpose and function of the freeway as it exists.

Contrary to popular belief, I-375 does not provide or promote easy access to downtown Detroit. In fact, it restricts access to downtown Detroit.

I-375 is a limited access freeway that was specifically designed to discourage and restrict local traffic to Greektown, Eastern Market, Lafayette Park, and the East Jefferson corridor, in favor of expediting freeway traffic to the Detroit/Windsor tunnel.

The whole point of I-375 was to completely bypass downtown Detroit and provide easy access to the tunnel to Windsor.

Due to the design of I-375, there are frequent traffic backups at the Lafayette exit, as the vast majority of I-375 traffic exits at Lafayette.

The proposed elimination of I-375 would have the freeway come out of the ground at Monroe/Lafayette, which would result in much easier access to Greektown, Lafayette Park, East Jefferson, Ren Cen parking, and the east riverfront.

The assertion that the I-375 elimination would restrict access to Greektown, or any other part of downtown and the near east side is simply not true.

[animatedmartian]

Why don't they build parks over the top of 375 like they have in Oak Park for 696? They could make a couple of these which would give green space and connect layfayette park. Taking that out is a huge effort with enormous expense. With the parks over it, the expressway can be available for high traffic volumes.

The freeway has to be rebuilt either way. The bridges and roadwork need repairs which MDOT has already estimated would cost around $80 million.

It would actually be cheaper [[by about $30-$40 million) to make 375 into a surface street.

Though one possible side benefit is if 375 becomes a surface street, that stupid 375/75 interchange can be rebuilt so that people won't have to drive those hard corner ramps to stay on 75. However, that by itself would cost about $120 million.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...ign_optio.html

[Gistok]

The whole point of I-375 was to completely bypass downtown Detroit and provide easy access to the tunnel to Windsor.

Due to the design of I-375, there are frequent traffic backups at the Lafayette exit, as the vast majority of I-375 traffic exits at Lafayette.

The proposed elimination of I-375 would have the freeway come out of the ground at Monroe/Lafayette, which would result in much easier access to Greektown, Lafayette Park, East Jefferson, Ren Cen parking, and the east riverfront.

The assertion that the I-375 elimination would restrict access to Greektown, or any other part of downtown and the near east side is simply not true.

Anyone who wants to see what a surface I-375 would be like, should visit Port Huron, and see what it is like where I-94 ends in that town... where you have 2 options... either take the bridge to Canada... or get dumped onto northbound M-25... where traffic is so busy, that it becomes a hindrance to pedestrians.

Several folks from Lafayette Park have already posted on this forum that they would not like to see I-375 as a surface street. It provides no easier access to downtown for them than the current system... if anything, the Blue Cross Blue Shield campus is a bigger hindrance for them than is I-375.