Ex-Convict Lonnie Bates Gets City Pension

**Pazen Hingree** · June-04-14, 09:40 PM

haven't heard alonzo's name in a while.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/convicts-st...-city-pensions

**Cincinnati_Kid** · June-05-14, 12:39 AM

Nothing new. He's not the only one.

**Honky Tonk** · June-05-14, 08:33 AM

The whole article disgusts me. And people keep blaming Snidely and Orr for this City's woe's.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-05-14, 09:06 AM

I don't think its reasonable to take away a pension because of criminal activity. With two caveats:
1) Taking only 25% as restitution isn't enough unless that will pay 100% back over his expected stay with us in this world.
2) All pensions should be equal. The lowest worker at the City should get the same pension as Mike Duggan. Pensions should not be indexed by working wages. That's just a way for those with power to stay on top. If you want a better retirement, make more during your working years and save.

slow_motion · June-05-14, 09:13 AM

Your brew pub and trolley you dreamers are so excited about don't address the 60 years of corruption. That ain't going away anytime soon. No developers in the nation will touch Detroit because it's the most corrupt city in the US, period.

**Honky Tonk** · June-05-14, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't think its reasonable to take away a pension because of criminal activity. With two caveats:
1) Taking only 25% as restitution isn't enough unless that will pay 100% back over his expected stay with us in this world.
2) All pensions should be equal. The lowest worker at the City should get the same pension as Mike Duggan. Pensions should not be indexed by working wages. That's just a way for those with power to stay on top. If you want a better retirement, make more during your working years and save.

There's the magic word, Mr. Mouch, "restitution". A word not prevalent in the COD dictionary.

**DetroitPlanner** · June-05-14, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

2) All pensions should be equal. The lowest worker at the City should get the same pension as Mike Duggan. Pensions should not be indexed by working wages. That's just a way for those with power to stay on top. If you want a better retirement, make more during your working years and save.

Pensions are based not just on salary, but on year put in. Are you saying that someone who paid into the pension for 35-40 years should get the same amount as someone who paid in for 8?

If so, what is to stop people from working five different jobs for 8 years and getting five times the amount of a pension?

Duggan will not be there as long as your average police or fireman. Should the guy who worked his whole career for one place be penalized while Duggan collects a pension from Detroit, Wayne County, DMC, and SMART?

**Cincinnati_Kid** · June-05-14, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Pensions are based not just on salary, but on year put in. Are you saying that someone who paid into the pension for 35-40 years should get the same amount as someone who paid in for 8?

If so, what is to stop people from working five different jobs for 8 years and getting five times the amount of a pension?

Duggan will not be there as long as your average police or fireman. Should the guy who worked his whole career for one place be penalized while Duggan collects a pension from Detroit, Wayne County, DMC, and SMART?

Great points. Mouch doesn't get it. The only thing I agree with him on is saving money. That is the key to any retirement. Most people don't save enough, or start too late.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-05-14, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Great points. Mouch doesn't get it. The only thing I agree with him on is saving money. That is the key to any retirement. Most people don't save enough, or start too late.

I'd rather kill all pensions and improve social security. It is much fairer, and it helps more people. I'm a closet socialist. What really bothers me is any pension that exceeds the average by 100%. There's just no reason why we give more public money to some workers than others. My rally cry -- equal public pensions for all. I want the janitor at city hall to have the same pension as a retired department head.

**Cliffy** · June-05-14, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I'd rather kill all pensions and improve social security. It is much fairer, and it helps more people. I'm a closet socialist. What really bothers me is any pension that exceeds the average by 100%. There's just no reason why we give more public money to some workers than others. My rally cry -- equal public pensions for all. I want the janitor at city hall to have the same pension as a retired department head.

No pensions exceed their average. Its not possible. If someone has a 3 year average of 90k, they are not going to get a 100k pension. Its not possible.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · June-06-14, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I'd rather kill all pensions and improve social security. It is much fairer, and it helps more people. I'm a closet socialist. What really bothers me is any pension that exceeds the average by 100%. There's just no reason why we give more public money to some workers than others. My rally cry -- equal public pensions for all. I want the janitor at city hall to have the same pension as a retired department head.

While a commendable suggestion, in the real world, that would never happen.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-06-14, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

While a commendable suggestion, in the real world, that would never happen.

I do realize that. But as a committed socialist, I think we need to strive for fairness in society. A society where our government takes tax money from citizens to pay anyone a city worker a pension that's more than double the smallest pension paid something is wrong.

I'm 100% against this absurd jihad against the 1% and 'income inequalty' in the private sector. But in public sector retirement, I'm 110% in favor of limiting pension inequality.

Here's the rule for those of you who misinterpreted my proposal earlier. Nobody gets a pension that's more than 100% of the average. So if the median city pension is $24,000, then there shall be no pensions of more than $48,000. Period. Nobody deserves a $150,000 public pension. Nobody.

[[And in private industry... go hog wild if you wish... but not with municipal cash.)

**eno** · June-06-14, 12:01 PM

Isn't Bates Academy named after Lonnie Bates? Isn't it time to change the name of that school?

**jt1** · June-06-14, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

No pensions exceed their average. Its not possible. If someone has a 3 year average of 90k, they are not going to get a 100k pension. Its not possible.

True, but pensions have exceeded pay based upon people cashing in vacation time, loading up on OT, etc in the last three years. Seems not a year goes by without a story of this happening in DFD. Feel free to tell me this doesn't happen.

**Gistok** · June-06-14, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by slow_motion

Your brew pub and trolley you dreamers are so excited about don't address the 60 years of corruption. That ain't going away anytime soon. No developers in the nation will touch Detroit because it's the most corrupt city in the US, period.

Do you think that leaving the Detroit Free Press "wild west forum" to troll here makes your posts any more valid?

**Cliffy** · June-06-14, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

True, but pensions have exceeded pay based upon people cashing in vacation time, loading up on OT, etc in the last three years. Seems not a year goes by without a story of this happening in DFD. Feel free to tell me this doesn't happen.

It does happen and I have no problem with it.

**jt1** · June-06-14, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

It does happen and I have no problem with it.

You have no problem with people gaming the system to increase pension which is equivalent to stealing?

**aj3647** · June-06-14, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I'm 100% against this absurd jihad against the 1% and 'income inequalty' in the private sector. But in public sector retirement, I'm 110% in favor of limiting pension inequality.

Under your system, why would any white collar worker want to work for the city if they are going to be paid similarly to the janitor? Good luck trying to attract qualified accountants, lawyers, etc if the best they can do is to be paid twice as much as the janitor.

**Cliffy** · June-06-14, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

You have no problem with people gaming the system to increase pension which is equivalent to stealing?

How is it stealing when you're working overtime and following all the rules set forth in your contract. If they were stealing, they would get fired.

**Cliffy** · June-06-14, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Under your system, why would any white collar worker want to work for the city if they are going to be paid similarly to the janitor? Good luck trying to attract qualified accountants, lawyers, etc if the best they can do is to be paid twice as much as the janitor.

Wesley continues to make posts attacking the average joe and pimping the elites that he worships. Pretty sad if you ask me that he stabs himself in the chest for his overlords.

**erikd** · June-07-14, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Under your system, why would any white collar worker want to work for the city if they are going to be paid similarly to the janitor? Good luck trying to attract qualified accountants, lawyers, etc if the best they can do is to be paid twice as much as the janitor.

I'm actually with Wesley on this one. I think that we should improve Social Security benefits for everyone, and scrap the public pension system altogether.

I don't see why people who made more money during their working years should be entitled to more government benefits after they retire. We should have a Social Security/retirement system that provides equal benefits for all retirees, without preferential treatment for higher-income people. I will take it one step further and say that this system shouldn't just be for retired public workers, but retired workers from the private sector as well.

As far as attracting white collar workers to government jobs, the white collar workers would still be paid higher wages than janitors during their working years, but their government retirement benefits would be equal. If everybody in the country is part of the same retirement system, then the worry of attracting qualified employees is mitigated. To be sure, this proposal doesn't work well if it's just the city of Detroit doing it, but I think that Wesley was suggesting a national policy, not a local one.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · June-07-14, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by erikd

I'm actually with Wesley on this one. I think that we should improve Social Security benefits for everyone, and scrap the public pension system altogether.

I don't see why people who made more money during their working years should be entitled to more government benefits after they retire. We should have a Social Security/retirement system that provides equal benefits for all retirees, without preferential treatment for higher-income people. I will take it one step further and say that this system shouldn't just be for retired public workers, but retired workers from the private sector as well.

As far as attracting white collar workers to government jobs, the white collar workers would still be paid higher wages than janitors during their working years, but their government retirement benefits would be equal. If everybody in the country is part of the same retirement system, then the worry of attracting qualified employees is mitigated. To be sure, this proposal doesn't work well if it's just the city of Detroit doing it, but I think that Wesley was suggesting a national policy, not a local one.

That sounds like a reasonable solution, but it will never happen. Greed is too prevalent in this country.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-07-14, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

That sounds like a reasonable solution, but it will never happen. Greed is too prevalent in this country.

Greed is indeed prevalent. And while I think the fight against the 1% is misguided -- there is a very valid argument that executive compensation, and in particular financial industry compensation is madly out of control.

Trying to control this is very difficult -- and maybe not possible nor wise.

But working to control public sector greed is essential. And I think quite achievable. Look at what Scott Walker has achieved in Wisconsin. Leave aside whether you agree with what he did, and his politics. You can hate them but note that he did put controls in place to limit the power of public sector unions over the public purse.

Putting control over public sector retirement and compensation is surely possible. In fact I do think Michigan did some reform for legislators. Our goal should be that every citizen gets a decent life in retirement if they've worked hard -- and at least compassionate care even if they are lazy low-lifes. We should never be supporting six-digit pensions for anyone in the public sector. So let's just pass a law saying so.

**Wesley Mouch** · June-07-14, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

How is it stealing when you're working overtime and following all the rules set forth in your contract. If they were stealing, they would get fired.

Following rules does not make one moral, only law-abiding.

The rules were put into place to achieve fair and reasonable compensation in retirement, but are used to compensate retirees beyond equality. When workers and management conspire to game the system by payroll tricks, its not much different in my book than Wall Street games.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · June-07-14, 11:26 AM

If people who have bilked the public are getting a public pension, then requiring restitution from the pension payments is appropriate. But their "debt to society" is primarily paid by the fact that they "did time." That's the point of prison, isn't it? I can't see the point in making them totally forfeit a pension, which may be their only means of support, any more than trying to make an ex-con ineligible for social security benefits that they earned. We have enough homeless and destitute people in this country as it is.

We have plenty of banksters who also stole from the public when they crashed the economy, but since they did so somewhat indirectly they have by and large suffered zilch in consequences.