Rapid Bus Project for Pontiac --> Downtown Detroit Proposed

[emu steve]

This sounds like what folks have been discussing/proposing as part of a regional transportation solution.

The most obvious question has to do how it would interface with M-1 rail? [[see my comment below)

And later, maybe many years, lines which go to the western and eastern suburbs?

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...dward-advances

EDIT: Of course, I could read the entire article and have my answer:

"Palombo said the off-Woodward loops are intended to boost ridership. For example, more Detroit riders could catch the rapid buses at Wayne State University on the trip south down Cass and up on John R. “I keep telling people the more riders and the faster it goes, the higher chance for federal funding,” he said.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz33NtshqMi

So Detroit would have bus/rail lines which like a pitch fork, would traverse Cass [[bus), Woodward [[light rail) and John R [[bus).

So M-1 rail could be seen as an 'embedded link' within this project which essentially shuttles riders along streets near Woodward, but not duplicative of M-1 rail.

The two systems would seem 'complimentary' to me.

[emu steve]

This project seems a long way from getting approved or shovels in the ground BUT it would be nice to have M-1 rail running for say a year to get some empirical data as to what ridership will be.

If M-1 ridership looks strong, then proceed. If not, this project dies a quiet life?

[Hypestyles]

hopefully something will develop and get implemented.

[313WX]

hopefully something will develop and get implemented.

Don't hold your breath.

[Lowell]

The Woodward route seems the best served of any at the moment. I don't get what BRT would do to improve it. It't not like the buses could easily slip over to an expressway for for some fast clipping along areas like they could from Gratiot, Grand River and Michigan. Where would be the improvement. Am I missing something?

[animatedmartian]

The Woodward route seems the best served of any at the moment. I don't get what BRT would do to improve it. It't not like the buses could easily slip over to an expressway for for some fast clipping along areas like they could from Gratiot, Grand River and Michigan. Where would be the improvement. Am I missing something?

There's a few things that are different with BRT than typical bus service;

1) Fares are paid at the station rather than on the bus which means less time for the bus to idle
2) Buses have their own lanes, are synchronized with traffic lights, and also have a higher allowed speed limits than other traffic
3) BRT buses are usually larger and have more capacity than a standard bus
4) Is cheaper to build than light rail and therefore more flexible to build

Phoenix, Arizona has a light rail line that's roughly equivalent to the distance of Detroit to Pontiac [[~20-25 miles) and that line cost $1.4 billion dollars to build. However, BRT would likely be in the $100-$125 million dollar range for the same distance.

My personal opinion is that BRT won't generate the same returns as light rail would, but BRT routes can be easily upgraded to light rail at any point in the future so I'm not really for or against it either way.

[Cliffy]

BRT is a lot more flexible but this is all just a pipe dream. We have a right wing legislature who is hell bent on screwing the worker and this kind of stuff will not be acceptable to them.

[trotwood]

I'd love to see an efficient functional regional transit system but how many more years of study will it take before something substantial is done?
I'm not qualified in this field[[don't claim to be) but clearly the need is there,has been for decades, so why not stop 'studying' and make it happen already?

[SDCC]

Rapid seems to be a word that is being used in several cities. In San Diego Rapid bus service begins June 8^th. The city currently has regular, express, and express premium bus routes. Express buses run on a few select routes and Express premium buses go to cities that are further out and only have limited service. Rapid will not replace Express, but certain Express routes are being terminated.
There is a new fleet of buses for this venture; that actually say Rapid on them, and they are the double long buses as well. They are remodeling the bus stops that service these Rapid buses, which will operate all day, and at a higher frequency, with fewer stops than regular buses. For example one route runs from downtown to Escondido, which is currently an Express premium route, now there is Rapid and Express servicing this community. I don’t believe this is that popular of a route to begin with, as most people in that area of San Diego County have private transportation. Must just be a coincidence that the term Rapid was chosen by all these cities, are there Federal dollars floating around?

[emu steve]

BRT is a lot more flexible but this is all just a pipe dream. We have a right wing legislature who is hell bent on screwing the worker and this kind of stuff will not be acceptable to them.

It is a shame that the urban and rural legislators live on different planets, figuratively speaking.

[Hermod]

Article in the paper yesterday on the most gridlocked cities in the US:

1. Los Angeles
2. Honolulu
3. San Francisco
4. Austin, TX
5. New York City
6. Bridgeport, CT
7. San Jose
8. Seattle
9. Boston
10. Washington, DC

[mtburb]

I hope that if this becomes successful, then similar BRT routes would be launched along Fort Street [[to at least Riverview), Michigan Avenue to Metro Airport, Grand River, Gratiot and M-59. That's my hopefuls, though.

[emu steve]

Rapid seems to be a word that is being used in several cities. In San Diego Rapid bus service begins June 8^th. The city currently has regular, express, and express premium bus routes. Express buses run on a few select routes and Express premium buses go to cities that are further out and only have limited service. Rapid will not replace Express, but certain Express routes are being terminated.
There is a new fleet of buses for this venture; that actually say Rapid on them, and they are the double long buses as well. They are remodeling the bus stops that service these Rapid buses, which will operate all day, and at a higher frequency, with fewer stops than regular buses. For example one route runs from downtown to Escondido, which is currently an Express premium route, now there is Rapid and Express servicing this community. I don’t believe this is that popular of a route to begin with, as most people in that area of San Diego County have private transportation. Must just be a coincidence that the term Rapid was chosen by all these cities, are there Federal dollars floating around?

In Fairfax County [[Va.) there is an 'express' bus system.

The 'highlight' is that the bus runs [[uses) the express [[high occupancy) lanes of the expressway [[e.g., 395 from the Pentagon) and then along regular bus routes. Customers pay premium fares for the convenience of a ride which avoids the slow [[non-high occupancy) lanes. The subway and bus system uses 'smart cards' so folks just swipe it instead of paying cash.

There are also bus lines for those who live longer distances from D.C. - these buses have restrooms, etc.

In the D.C. area, buses are a necessity. Folks take them to connect to the subway system.

These bus systems serve folks without cars BUT mostly folks who work at the Pentagon, downtown, etc. but would never dream of driving their cars there.

[That Great Guy]

I'd love to see an efficient functional regional transit system but how many more years of study will it take before something substantial is done?
I'm not qualified in this field[[don't claim to be) but clearly the need is there,has been for decades, so why not stop 'studying' and make it happen already?

Something is happening already. Nothing by Mr. John Hertel of SMART who is not in the news or debating his August Tax Increase against those who publicly challenge him.

If $60 per year to get Grandma to the doctors feels good then $100 will feel better.

Then mentality is I ride the SMART bus to work but if I want to keep it they YOU pay more from ME because I'm transit dependent and rely on SMART. I can pay for my own bus and don't need YOUR tax dollars. The Michigan line bus is full, thus should support itself. The same for I-75 expansions, the fuel tax and tolls should pay and not a NEW Sales tax increase.

So, vote more of your money away next August and get high speed rail to Chicago, the RTA, larger freeways. It's all for a good cause like voting in more $$$$ for kids, the zoo, the DIA

Ma$$ Tran$it is just a dream until you reach in your wallet because you get what you pay for and what you want if you just look at all that concrete and the SEMCOG plans and really do want all that new pavement because you can vote YES or NO and have free speech.

I've given up any hope for mass transit in this area but do like the SMART buses. I think the 0.59 mil is high enough unless Mr. John Hertel can get more riders and more money from Washington and Lansing in my opinion but that is just my opinion.

Y'all can pay more if ya all want to.,

[ghettopalmetto]

There's a few things that are different with BRT than typical bus service;

1) Fares are paid at the station rather than on the bus which means less time for the bus to idle
2) Buses have their own lanes, are synchronized with traffic lights, and also have a higher allowed speed limits than other traffic

These two characteristics could be incorporated into existing DDOT and SMART service without much effort. This would be done through a proof-of-payment fare system, where pre-purchased tickets must be validated on the bus. You don't need "rapid" transit to do things that are just common sense.

3) BRT buses are usually larger and have more capacity than a standard bus

As do the articulated buses that DDOT used to run on select routes.

4) Is cheaper to build than light rail and therefore more flexible to build


Phoenix, Arizona has a light rail line that's roughly equivalent to the distance of Detroit to Pontiac [[~20-25 miles) and that line cost $1.4 billion dollars to build. However, BRT would likely be in the $100-$125 million dollar range for the same distance.

What kind of guesswork is this based on? Cleveland's Health Line--the example that bus proponents love to parade, as it has prepaid fares and dedicated lanes--cost about $250 million for 7 miles. OR roughly $35 million/ mile. Many light rail projects have come in around that number.

And since when is "flexibility" a desirable characteristic of transit? Would you ride the bus if the route changed several times a year? If you spend $125 million for 25 miles or bus "rapid" transit [[$5 milllion/mile), you're not going to be able to afford fare prepayment, station platforms, dedicated lanes, or really much of anything other than painted white lines and a couple dozen new buses--hardly "rapid" transit.

[bailey]

ah the sweet SexyBus! Lets add another bus system to our deranged and incoherent transit system!

[ghettopalmetto]

ah the sweet SexyBus! Lets add another bus system to our deranged and incoherent transit system!

Here's why this proposed service is an asinine idea:

1. The speed limit. Even if the buses travel at 35 mph the entire route [[and that's a huge "IF"), the route is nearly 30 miles long. Conservatively estimate a minimum of 1 minute for acceleration/deceleration/dwell time at each stop, and you're talking an hour-and-a-half one-way trip. That's not much improvement over existing DDOT and SMART service. So where's the "rapid" part?

2. Station spacing of 1 mile will require existing local service to be maintained. So, no cost savings on operations.

3. SMART already has the longest average route lengths in the nation. Usually, when you get beyond the 10-15 mile range, you start talking commuter bus [[on freeways) or commuter rail. A commuter rail option--$3 million or so per mile on existing tracks, would cost less than any bus "rapid" transit project, achieve higher farebox recovery, and result in faster trip times.

The proposed idea doesn't achieve anything that doesn't already exist. It's just a lazy-ass bone to shut people up.

[DetroitPlanner]

Article in the paper yesterday on the most gridlocked cities in the US:

4. Austin, TX

This one surprises me. Austin has built more bike infrastructure there than anywhere else. Maybe they should have used the money to build roads or transit? Its also not mind-boggling huge or having physical constraints to overcome like all of the other cities. There is only one major river, and even that is nothing like the Mississippi or the Delaware.

[SDCC]

In Fairfax County [[Va.) there is an 'express' bus system.

The 'highlight' is that the bus runs [[uses) the express [[high occupancy) lanes of the expressway [[e.g., 395 from the Pentagon) and then along regular bus routes. Customers pay premium fares for the convenience of a ride which avoids the slow [[non-high occupancy) lanes. The subway and bus system uses 'smart cards' so folks just swipe it instead of paying cash.

There are also bus lines for those who live longer distances from D.C. - these buses have restrooms, etc.

In the D.C. area, buses are a necessity. Folks take them to connect to the subway system.

These bus systems serve folks without cars BUT mostly folks who work at the Pentagon, downtown, etc. but would never dream of driving their cars there.

The premium express routes also carry a premium price here in sunny San Diego; the price tag is $5.00, which is more than twice the nominal in town fare of $2.25. These express buses are brand new and luxurious, more like chartered buses. Their destinations are backcountry and cities on the fringes of the system. A few stops downtown and then these super cruisers hit the highway – and its up, up and away – not making another stop for miles. There are express lanes in San Diego County as well, there is very little traffic on them.

And now enter Rapid buses; which according to our mega public transportation company – these are being rolled out to compliment the express bus routes.
I would assert the majority of the riders on these rural routes own a vehicle, they have opted to join the leave the driving to us group.

[animatedmartian]

The proposed idea doesn't achieve anything that doesn't already exist. It's just a lazy-ass bone to shut people up.

I don't disagree with that part.

[professorscott]

A commuter rail option--$3 million or so per mile on existing tracks, would cost less than any bus "rapid" transit project, achieve higher farebox recovery, and result in faster trip times.

There are a couple of problems with this, and they're huge.

1. Commuter rail has to use the tracks where they are. The location of the tracks doesn't allow for convenient service to most of the destinations you'd want to reach: Birmingham, Ferndale, New Center, Wayne State or downtown. Your $3 million on existing tracks balloons enormously if you have to start laying new track where none exists. If you're expecting people to walk a mile from the tracks to where they're going, or to wait an hour for the bus, you're dreaming.

2. The tracks are privately owned by the freight railway companies, and it is proving quite difficult to get permission to use them for passenger service beyond the existing [[Amtrak) use. SEMCOG has been trying, for many, many years, to get permission to implement the Detroit to Ann Arbor route. They have the trains, but still aren't able to operate the service, in large part because the freight railways don't want more passenger trains on their tracks.

If there were great destinations right near the railroad tracks then it would be a viable option. So the service would work great in Royal Oak, but pretty much noplace else that I can think of. That's why it hasn't been considered in detail.

[animatedmartian]

This one surprises me. Austin has built more bike infrastructure there than anywhere else. Maybe they should have used the money to build roads or transit? Its also not mind-boggling huge or having physical constraints to overcome like all of the other cities. There is only one major river, and even that is nothing like the Mississippi or the Delaware.

I-35 is pretty much the only major artery into downtown Austin from the northern suburbs. The other freeways around the metro do a poor job of distributing traffic.

[scooter]

I hope that if this becomes successful, then similar BRT routes would be launched along Fort Street [[to at least Riverview), Michigan Avenue to Metro Airport, Grand River, Gratiot and M-59. That's my hopefuls, though.

TThe TriCounty was planning this years ago, it ws going to be called Speedlink, routes were going to be Graitiot, Van Dyke, Woodward all the way to M-59 Fort Street and 1 ast and west route M-59 to Pontiac to Gratiot, then Smart buses would coordinatro transfers for other routes, this fell through, so this wil probaly too.

[SDCC]

In Fairfax County [[Va.) there is an 'express' bus system.

The 'highlight' is that the bus runs [[uses) the express [[high occupancy) lanes of the expressway [[e.g., 395 from the Pentagon) and then along regular bus routes. Customers pay premium fares for the convenience of a ride which avoids the slow [[non-high occupancy) lanes. The subway and bus system uses 'smart cards' so folks just swipe it instead of paying cash.

There are also bus lines for those who live longer distances from D.C. - these buses have restrooms, etc.

In the D.C. area, buses are a necessity. Folks take them to connect to the subway system.

These bus systems serve folks without cars BUT mostly folks who work at the Pentagon, downtown, etc. but would never dream of driving their cars there.

Smart cards? I assume that is a plastic card that can be loaded [[reloaded) in various combinations; one day, one week, one month, their called Compass cards here. They can be loaded at home via my computer, any trolley stop, or any Albertson’s grocery store. A far, far, better deal; $73.00 a month [[adult) for unlimited travel on all urban bus routes and any and all trolley lines, the daily rate for unlimited travel is $5.00, monthly is the way to go, and the overwhelming majority of people have bus passes [[or smart cards). Boarding a bus there is a card reader – pretty sure this is not new technology. Trolley stations have card readers, and riders are supposed to “tap” their cards on these machines prior to boarding. Once boarded there are no machines to purchase a ticket or load money onto a card, and you run the risk of the trolley police boarding [[with hand held scanners) and inspecting tickets and passes.

The best deal in San Diego is the semester passes [[small sticker attached to ID) that are issued by all the colleges in the county; for $181.00 – which can be deducted from a student’s financial aid account – its valid for 4 ½ months of unlimited ridership on any and all buses and trolleys. These stickers don’t “read”, we are required to show our ID’s instead.

[ghettopalmetto]

There are a couple of problems with this, and they're huge.

1. Commuter rail has to use the tracks where they are. The location of the tracks doesn't allow for convenient service to most of the destinations you'd want to reach: Birmingham, Ferndale, New Center, Wayne State or downtown. Your $3 million on existing tracks balloons enormously if you have to start laying new track where none exists. If you're expecting people to walk a mile from the tracks to where they're going, or to wait an hour for the bus, you're dreaming.

This is why you have a bus system feed into the commuter rail. You know better than I do that there is an existing rail station in Birmingham, and near Wayne State / New Center. The whole idea is that a commuter train only stops every several miles, speeding up service. It makes more sense to take a 30-45 minute train ride and transfer to a local bus for a couple blocks, than to take a 90-minute bus ride [[and still perhaps, have to transfer).

2. The tracks are privately owned by the freight railway companies, and it is proving quite difficult to get permission to use them for passenger service beyond the existing [[Amtrak) use. SEMCOG has been trying, for many, many years, to get permission to implement the Detroit to Ann Arbor route. They have the trains, but still aren't able to operate the service, in large part because the freight railways don't want more passenger trains on their tracks.

Yes, these are sticking points. But it seems to me that Chicago has much more freight rail traffic than Detroit, yet manage to have a far more robust--let alone existent--commuter rail system.

If there were great destinations right near the railroad tracks then it would be a viable option. So the service would work great in Royal Oak, but pretty much noplace else that I can think of. That's why it hasn't been considered in detail.

I'm disappointed in you, professorscott. You always struck me as someone very knowledgeable as to the purposes of various transit modes.