M-1 to break ground this summer

[believe14]

...some of you call me dillusional for saying for years that it's not going to happen. Go figure

I'm on your team. I can't wrap my head around how anyone could think this is a good idea. It's literally Groundhog Day, Detroit edition.

I'd hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you keep waiting for a region-wide streetcar/light rail system to instantaneously materialize all at once, you might be a little bit bonkers.

Even the greatest transit systems on earth have to start somewhere. Don't let the Good be the enemy of the Perfect.

So you hope it will expand down Woodward? So... people can have a $500M taxi home from games and cheap commute to work in the city? How does this benefit Detroit? Furthermore, Birmingham and Bloomfield will never let this thing get anywhere close to 14 Mile. [[Not that it will ever have the funding required anyways.)

[bailey]

I'd hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you keep waiting for a region-wide streetcar/light rail system to instantaneously materialize all at once, you might be a little bit bonkers.

Even the greatest transit systems on earth have to start somewhere. Don't let the Good be the enemy of the Perfect.

So, basically, since there is ZERO plan [[that is based in reality, not Transit Rider United fantasy) to take this anywhere else, we're left with using the same 40 yr old People Mover talking points to defend this [[literal) train wreck?

[ghettopalmetto]

So you hope it will expand down Woodward? So... people can have a $500M taxi home from games and cheap commute to work in the city? How does this benefit Detroit? Furthermore, Birmingham and Bloomfield will never let this thing get anywhere close to 14 Mile. [[Not that it will ever have the funding required anyways.)

Yeah, God forbid people have an efficient, affordable method of getting to work. I mean, people might actually be able to hold jobs, go shopping, spend money in the local economy. That's just horrible.

It would be so much better to force everyone to own a car or take taxis everywhere. People don't need no dang stinking disposable income.

[Bham1982]

The DPM is *not* rail transit, contrary to what you might think. It relies on expensive, obsolete, proprietary technology that is [[if I'm not mistaken) no longer available. The DPM was never designed to be expanded beyond the 3-mile loop, and its routing and unidirectional operation render it inferior to walking in most instances.

DPM is in fact rail transit, and is obviously classified as rail transit by APTA [[American Public Transportation Association). I have no idea whether the technology is obsolete or not, but it's irrelevent to whether or not it's rail transit. And, no, it was always intended to be expanded, with lines up the avenues.

Your "broke taxpayers" have spent billions on upgrading an airport, have thrown billions at stadiums and building demolitions, and are planning to throw billions at more unnecessary freeways. That men like Dan Gilbert and Roger Penske actually think it *wise* to invest in Detroit--and are spending a comparative pittance in money to upgrade PUBLIC infrastructure--perhaps these gentlemen know something that you don't.

So you regard aiport expansion [[for 40 million annual passengers) and freeway improvements [[for the 95% of local households that own and use cars) to be "wastes of money", but you regard a private trolley shuttle service intended to enrich billionaires and screw transit riders to be in the public interest, to be funded by the public dime? Alrighty, then...

So you think vague, unspecified "improvements" to diesel buses on bone-jarring pothole-riddled pavement are superior to fixed-route electric-powered transit on steel rails? Are we supposed to believe that M-1 Rail will be a boondoggle, even though the existing bus service is "heavily used"?

Yes, I do think improvements to bus services for 90,000 riders would be a much better use of funds that a trolley for a few suburban drunks. Whether the buses are diesel or the pavement sucks has nothing to do with whether or not improvements can be made. There are far, far more bus riders nationally than light rail riders, and it's much more important to the local transit infrastructure.

[ghettopalmetto]

So, basically, we're left with using the same 40 yr old People Mover talking points to defend this [[literal) train wreck?

The DPM was a piece of shit, from conception to implementation. But it seems that the streetcar naysayers are trotting out the same tired arguments they've used since Alfred Sloan began dismantling the DSR. And since we have the benefit of history to put events into perspective...

I suppose I just don't understand what people hope to gain from [[still) sitting on their asses and doing nothing. How well has that worked so far? Maybe you guys would be happier in say, the poverty-riddled Deep South, where they don't believe in investing in any kind of infrastructure.

Don't bitch to this forum--bitch to Mr. Penske and Mr. Gilbert, and tell them what idiots they are.

[Bham1982]

Yeah, God forbid people have an efficient, affordable method of getting to work. I mean, people might actually be able to hold jobs, go shopping, spend money in the local economy. That's just horrible.

It would be so much better to force everyone to own a car or take taxis everywhere. People don't need no dang stinking disposable income.

Trolleys will make it harder for people to take transit to work. It will negatively impact the existing transit service on Woodward, which, again, serves tens of thousands of people, and has higher ridership than many successful light rail lines in other cities.

The problem is that billionaires aren't necessarily good transit planners. They think their skills in business automatically translate to planning and public policy. They don't understand, for example, that the light rail needs to have widely spaced stops, and needs to run as rapid transit, not sidwalk-hugging trolleys. Otherwise it's nothing but a tourist shuttle.

[bailey]

The DPM was a piece of shit, from conception to implementation. But it seems that the streetcar naysayers are trotting out the same tired arguments they've used since Alfred Sloan began dismantling the DSR. And since we have the benefit of history to put events into perspective...

the point is, M1 has not shown itself to be distinguishable different from conception to implementation. We're how many years behind? how many revisions [[and shrinkings)? How many false starts?

I suppose I just don't understand what people hope to gain from [[still) sitting on their asses and doing nothing. How well has that worked so far? Maybe you guys would be happier in say, the poverty-riddled Deep South, where they don't believe in investing in any kind of infrastructure.

Again, you're taking criticism of a TERRIBLE FUCKING PLAN as being anti-transit or infrastructure investment.

Don't bitch to this forum--bitch to Mr. Penske and Mr. Gilbert, and tell them what idiots they are.

Right after I get done pissing up a rope. the Gilbertonians are going to get the parking shuttle they want because they have the money to do so and detroit its very own little oligarchy.

This is not an improvement to transit....is really all I'm saying. It's a vanity project.

[ghettopalmetto]

The problem is that billionaires aren't necessarily good transit planners. They think their skills in business automatically translate to planning and public policy. They don't understand, for example, that the light rail needs to have widely spaced stops, and needs to run as rapid transit, not sidwalk-hugging trolleys. Otherwise it's nothing but a tourist shuttle.

It's a G.D. STREETCAR. You know, like the one in Portland. Like the one Cincinnati is building. Gilbert and Penske never sold this as rapid transit. If you don't know the difference, that's your own damn fault.

You want rapid transit, talk to the Sexybus people at SEMCOG.

This is the problem with building transit in Detroit: You have a region of 4 million+ people that collectively know d*** about transit, simply because they've never had it.

[mwilbert]

Tiny fraction of what this thing will cost to build. No to mention what -dollar amount do you put on Detroit being in the national press for this embarrassment in a few years?

I don't agree with your position here at all. Maybe you think you have a better idea on how to spend the construction money, but in general that money isn't available for other purposes. You greatly overstate the potential embarrassment, as it is highly unlikely anyone outside the area will give it much thought--it isn't as if building a streetcar line is some bizarre affectation unique to Detroit and given the transit traffic on Woodward now, it is also not likely that the M-1 will go unused.

And regardless of what the people of Birmingham may or may not think, there is a lot of room to extend the line without impinging upon them. I've always thought that there would be a substantial benefit to it reaching Ferndale, so I'd like to see it get that far, but you are correct in observing that there is currently no visible funding source.

[Honky Tonk]

I'd hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you keep waiting for a region-wide streetcar/light rail system to instantaneously materialize all at once, you might be a little bit bonkers.

Even the greatest transit systems on earth have to start somewhere. Don't let the Good be the enemy of the Perfect.

You mean like the People Remover? "Why we'll build 5, 10, loops. You'll be able to go all the way to 8 mile, and across town by transferring from loop to loop".

[bailey]

It's a G.D. STREETCAR. You know, like the one in Portland. Like the one Cincinnati is building. Gilbert and Penske never sold this as rapid transit. If you don't know the difference, that's your own damn fault.

That is NOT how it's been sold around here. Can you blame people who might expect more than a trolley when you call it "M1 Rail"?

You want rapid transit, talk to the Sexybus people at SEMCOG.

I don't want sexybus, I'd like ONE bus system though for starters. One that doesn't leave people stranded for hours at stops. maybe 150 mill plus a Federal Grant could do something there?

This is the problem with building transit in Detroit: You have a region of 4 million+ people that collectively know d*** about transit, simply because they've never had it.

Which includes those running it now and planning its future.

[Bham1982]

It's a G.D. STREETCAR. You know, like the one in Portland. Like the one Cincinnati is building. Gilbert and Penske never sold this as rapid transit. If you don't know the difference, that's your own damn fault.

Portland has rapid transit light rail, not a streetcar. It's overwhelmingly grade-separated, high speed, with widely spaced stations. It's basically the complete opposite of the Detroit streetcar.

Cincy, yes, they're planning something similar to Detroit, and will probably be just as ridiculous as in Detroit [[in fact their mayor tried to stop it, but local bazillionaires forced it to proceed).

[believe14]

It's a G.D. STREETCAR. You know, like the one in Portland. Like the one Cincinnati is building.

Those are functioning, thriving and relatively safe major cities. Kanye West said it best, "You need to crawl before you ball."

[emu steve]

Two trolls took over. Abandon thread and turn back now.

When I started this thread I thought no one would reply since even though it is 'news' it isn't 'new news'.

Guess I was wrong.

[bailey]

When I started this thread I thought no one would reply since even though it is 'news' it isn't 'new news'.

Guess I was wrong.

I think there is the pretty significant buried lede that they don't have the money in place. That's a new twist.

[Hermod]

The DPM was a piece of shit, from conception to implementation. But it seems that the streetcar naysayers are trotting out the same tired arguments they've used since Alfred Sloan began dismantling the DSR. And since we have the benefit of history to put events into perspective...

The old urban legend again. The only thing Ford and GM [[Twin Coach) did was to sell buses to the DSR. Closing down the streetcars was a political and economic decision of the CoD.

[believe14]

I think there is the pretty significant buried lede that they don't have the money in place. That's a new twist.

Everyone knows this is a turkey... except Dan, I guess.

[iheartthed]

Not one person in Midtown will have an easier transit commute downtown.

We already have buses, running at a more frequent schedule than the planned trolley, so anyone living in Midtown and working in the RenCen [[all 12 of them) can take the bus, like the other 90,000 D-Dot riders [[who will all have worse service due to the trolley, but no one cares because this toonerville trolley is being built with the impression it serve as a stadium/bar shuttle and maybe will attract a few 20-something white kids from Shelby Twp. into the city for a few years).

Your argument is based on the assumption that streetcars and buses carry the same amount of passengers, which they don't. Street cars carry about 4 times as many people as a single city bus... So yes, people in Midtown will have an easier time of getting downtown since the the passenger capacity will quadruple.

[Honky Tonk]

Everyone knows this is a turkey... except Dan, I guess.

And Mike......

[ghettopalmetto]

Portland has rapid transit light rail, not a streetcar. It's overwhelmingly grade-separated, high speed, with widely spaced stations. It's basically the complete opposite of the Detroit streetcar.

Cincy, yes, they're planning something similar to Detroit, and will probably be just as ridiculous as in Detroit [[in fact their mayor tried to stop it, but local bazillionaires forced it to proceed).

You still tryin to learn me, professor? http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/

Both of Cincinnati's anti-rail ballot initiatives were rejected...BY VOTERS. Cincinnati's streetcar is now under construction. Future extensions have already been planned.

[Bham1982]

Your argument is based on the assumption that streetcars and buses carry the same amount of passengers, which they don't. Street cars carry about 4 times as many people as a single city bus... So yes, people in Midtown will have an easier time of getting downtown since the the passenger capacity will quadruple.

There is no industry standard of "street cars carry 4 times as many people as a bus". The capacity is based on the rolling stock. Generally speaking, light rail capacity is similar to bus capacity.

And capacity is irrelevent. We're talking ridership. Many bus lines [[including the Woodward line) have higher [[sometimes much higher) ridership than light rail. That shouldn't be surprising, given that bus lines and light rail lines are designed to serve similar ridership levels. If you want high capacity, you go with heavy rail systems, with a grade separated design.

The current Woodward corridor carries over 30,000 bus riders, all of which will be inconvenienced by a competing service that will cut the bus frequency.

[Bham1982]

You still tryin to learn me, professor? http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/

Both of Cincinnati's anti-rail ballot initiatives were rejected...BY VOTERS. Cincinnati's streetcar is now under construction. Future extensions have already been planned.

I don't know what you're trying to argue here, as yes, the Portland light rail is the complete opposite of Detroit's trolley [[again, it's grade-separated, high-speed, and widely spaced stations). It has nothing to do with the Detroit system.

And yes, the newly elected mayor of Cincy, who campaigned on an anti-trolley platform, did try and stop their trolley, but the local bazillionaires stopped him.

What is your point anyways? Another failed city is building an idiotic system, so Detroit should do the same?

[believe14]

I think there is the pretty significant buried lede that they don't have the money in place. That's a new twist.

Agree. Also, has there been a single major project in Detroit the last 50 years that came in under budget? Can you imagine $200M on this tragedy?

[iheartthed]

There is no industry standard of "street cars carry 4 times as many people as a bus". The capacity is based on the rolling stock. Generally speaking, light rail capacity is similar to bus capacity.

And capacity is irrelevent. We're talking ridership. Many bus lines [[including the Woodward line) have higher [[sometimes much higher) ridership than light rail. That shouldn't be surprising, given that bus lines and light rail lines are designed to serve similar ridership levels. If you want high capacity, you go with heavy rail systems, with a grade separated design.

The current Woodward corridor carries over 30,000 bus riders, all of which will be inconvenienced by a competing service that will cut the bus frequency.

Light rail capacity is not similar to a bus. Please stop. A single modern light rail car will carry roughly 90 - 100 passengers. Most at-grade modern systems have minimum 2 cars per train, so at a minimum we're talking 180 - 200 passengers per train, minimum. An articulated bus has a maximum capacity of roughly 90-100, so it takes two articulated buses to match the minimum of one train. However, this is a moot point because Detroit hasn't used articulated buses in quite a while. So Detroit buses have a capacity of around 60 passengers. Which means you need at least 3 Detroit buses to match a street car train. So a single train will add the equivalent of 3 buses for each trip between New Center and downtown. How exactly does that not improve transit for people in midtown and downtown? Doesn't more mean good?

And yes, heavy rail would add even more capacity. If Detroit were adding a heavy rail system then we'd be talking about moving thousands of people per train, not hundreds [[street car) or tens [[buses). But that's not an option on the table right now.

[stasu1213]

I'm on your team. I can't wrap my head around how anyone could think this is a good idea. It's literally Groundhog Day, Detroit edition.



So you hope it will expand down Woodward? So... people can have a $500M taxi home from games and cheap commute to work in the city? How does this benefit Detroit? Furthermore, Birmingham and Bloomfield will never let this thing get anywhere close to 14 Mile. [[Not that it will ever have the funding required anyways.)

I always wondered had the people mover would had been built ground level would it had been cheaper to build having more money to extend it to the New Center area. Here's another thing to think about; If there are events going on at Campus Martius this summer especially the jazz festival that will tell you that there will be no street construction for lightrail that would interrupt these events. Think about it.