Cash for clunkers swindle

rvtwitty · July-25-09, 12:33 PM

Metro people, be on the look out for shady dealers taking advanatge of senior citizens turning in older cars. A lot of add on charges in contracts, weird warranties. There is some major swindling going on. Always check Better Business Bureau for dealer ratings. Those rankings really do tell a story. Worth a look. Could save a loved one or friend thousands of dollars. I know BBB has faults, but the rankings are interesting. Also be on the lookout for repair shops and dealers trying to sell power steering flushes. It is the newest scam in town. Rarely needed at upwards of 150 bucks. Could actually harm the system on older cars. The repair person shows the customer a sample of oil, claiming it is either dirty or burnt. The oil is sometimes from the crankcase, not from the steering container. as represented.

**wash_man** · July-25-09, 01:34 PM

What's your source rvtwitty? The program just started yesterday.

rvtwitty · July-25-09, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by wash_man

What's your source rvtwitty? The program just started yesterday.

Personal friends parents. The finance manager of a dealer really stuck it to them. Had the actual contract folded over not showing the pricing, had one of them sign it while the other parent was distracted because the finance manager asked them to look over a tire warranty. The parents children are emailing and writing all the US government elected officials in the area, plus going to the Commerce Dept in Washington to let them know about the swindle. This was an Obama pet project. Plus the federal government involved. Could get interesting. We shall see if the government sanctions the car dealer involved and declares them not worthy of any future consideration of programs like this.

**CornBot** · July-25-09, 02:37 PM

Hmmmmm regarding the scam on the cash for clunkers thing. I was going to hit my local dealership[[s) Monday after work - alone - to test drive any one of several choices winnowed down by several weeks worth of research. I have precious little $ for a monthly payment, so I am one of those who must put costs before any number of more noble, more fun, choices.

My CfC vehicle is a 1998 Dodge Dakota with nearly 200,000 miles on it and a market value in perfect condition is not $4,500 [[and it's not perfect). We don't need a truck anymore, just a vehicle that can tow a small trailer and hold more than 1 suitcase in its cargo area, and that gets good mileage. My first choice is a Dodge Caliber, mostly because of the matching $4,500 from Chrysler. Second choice might be a Kia Soul or a Nissan Cube mostly because they meet all my criteria, even without the extra $. [[No opinions, please. I would prefer to buy a Big 3 vehicle, but geezes, most are out of my price range and don't offer near the features in their base models.)

Which car I end up with depends on how well I can reach the clutch pedal in any of them - I'm 5 feet tall and this has been an issue in the past... I chose the Dodge over a Ford truck in 1998 specifically because of this.

The Dodge dealership is the only one within 30 miles of my house [[now). Advantages I have, considering rvtwitty's comments, is that I've already gotten approval from my credit union for a potential loan, so I don't have to take dealer financing. I also will make it clear I don't want any special insurances or bells & whistles [["gap insurance" comes to mind, talk about a rip). AARP advises that a customer is also due the scrap value of their CfC vehicle, something I'd only heard/read from them, but intend to look into. And, maybe most importantly, my old truck still runs well and looks pretty good. I don't "have" to buy a car from anyone right now. If any or all the dealerships I go to don't meet my requirements and/or can't or don't answer my questions satisfactorily, well, none will sell a vehicle to me.

Being just broke enough gives me bargaining leverage... being just solvent enough just might give me a new car. I hope I am as wise, and as prepared, as I think I am...

**tahleel** · July-25-09, 03:33 PM

I'm not sure how people are being swindled. If dealerships are trying to get older folks to trade in their older high mileage cars, where do the dealerships profit? The dealership MUST scrap the vehicles. They CANNOT resell the vehicle. If they were to resell the vehicles, that would mean that they would not get the $3/4500 from the government.

The power steering flush seems like a scam that is not related to the Cash-for-Clunkers program. Think about it, if you were to trade in that old vehicle, would you opt to spend $150 on it, when it would get crushed anyways?

Many manufacturers are taking away rebates, hurting those who do not have cars that are eligible to be traded in.

-Tahleel

**Novine** · July-25-09, 04:26 PM

rvtwitty, nothing about what you wrote has anything to do with "cash for clunkers". Most of what you described is the usual dishonest behavior you get at some dealers. Swindling on warranties, etc. and hiding numbers on contract didn't start yesterday.

**wash_man** · July-25-09, 05:23 PM

Sorry, rvtwitty, I'm not buying it.. It sounds more like someone is starting an anti-Obama urban legend. Besides, it wasn't his "pet project." [[It passed in the House by 298-119 and the Senate by 91-5)

CornBot: be aware that the matching funds from Chrysler are "up to" $4,500 depending on model purchased. I doubt you'll get the full $4,500 matching funds on the least expensive car they sell.

rvtwitty · July-25-09, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

rvtwitty, nothing about what you wrote has anything to do with "cash for clunkers". Most of what you described is the usual dishonest behavior you get at some dealers. Swindling on warranties, etc. and hiding numbers on contract didn't start yesterday.

The couple trading in the vehicle did not have to trade it in. It ate gas, but ran good, did have some miles on it though. They were trying to get a more fuel efficient vehicle. Their old vehicle was getting on in years. It was an opportunity for them . They would have had to get a new car in a year or two anyway. But they could have made do. The dealers are advertising this program heavily. The dealers quoted them prices. They had computer printouts of what it was going to cost and the rebate for the down payment. Novine, you sound like a car salesman. When it came time to sign the documents, the old switcheroo was in place. The contract had way more charges on it for frivolous things and programs they said no to the salesman initially. The " finance manager" added them anyway and got one of the seniors to sign. Notice I said seniors. In their early 70's. How would you like it if this were done to your parents. These people have bought maybe 5 cars new in their whole lifetime. Fortunately their hard work paid off, their kids have college degrees and are going to bat for them. The American Dream does not include car swindles. I hope once the feds hear about horror stories like this one, [[ I am sure there will be more) something punitive will be done to dishonest dealers. I just read $15,000 fines are in place for some infractions on the dealers.I also never stated who was involved in the power steering scam. Just wanted to give people reading this forum a clue about what repair shops do. Instead of defending crud like this dealer, metro citizens need to ban together and put them out of business. Word of mouth, Better Business Bureau are good tools to learn about dishonesty. These people paid 2 grand more than they should have. Get it now?

rvtwitty · July-25-09, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by wash_man

Sorry, rvtwitty, I'm not buying it.. It sounds more like someone is starting an anti-Obama urban legend. Besides, it wasn't his "pet project." [[It passed in the House by 298-119 and the Senate by 91-5)

CornBot: be aware that the matching funds from Chrysler are "up to" $4,500 depending on model purchased. I doubt you'll get the full $4,500 matching funds on the least expensive car they sell.

You sound like a car salesman. This is not an anti Obama rant either. Obama wanted this program to make the Al Gore types happy and sell some cars to get the economy going. Since I live around here, I would not mind seeing the economy get a boost.

**gnome** · July-25-09, 06:19 PM

rvtwitty,

The hallmark of any urban legend is that "it" didn't happen to you. "It" happened to a cousin's friend, or a neighbor's father, or a friend's nephew. Always a step or two removed from the teller of the tale.

To get to the truth, what is the name of the dealer? Salesmen? Have your people contacted Mike Cox, or even The Problem Solvers?

Oh, Novine doesn't sell cars. He's a straight shooter even if he's a bit left of Stalin.

**Thames** · July-25-09, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by wash_man

CornBot: be aware that the matching funds from Chrysler are "up to" $4,500 depending on model purchased. I doubt you'll get the full $4,500 matching funds on the least expensive car they sell.

It has nothing to do with the cost of the vehicle. It has to do with the mpg saved with new car vs. old car.

If a new car saves 10mpg or more, you will get the full $4500. If it only saves 4-9 mpg, you will get $3500.

And the new vehicle must get at least 22 mpg or the deal is off the table.

There is different criteria for trucks and other vehicles.

Stosh · July-25-09, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by rvtwitty

Personal friends parents. The finance manager of a dealer really stuck it to them. Had the actual contract folded over not showing the pricing, had one of them sign it while the other parent was distracted because the finance manager asked them to look over a tire warranty. The parents children are emailing and writing all the US government elected officials in the area, plus going to the Commerce Dept in Washington to let them know about the swindle. This was an Obama pet project. Plus the federal government involved. Could get interesting. We shall see if the government sanctions the car dealer involved and declares them not worthy of any future consideration of programs like this.

Here's a thought. Scan these documents so we can look and see exactly what this dealer did. I'm sure you can black out the names. Otherwise, it's all so much baloney.

**CornBot** · July-25-09, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thames

It has nothing to do with the cost of the vehicle. It has to do with the mpg saved with new car vs. old car.

If a new car saves 10mpg or more, you will get the full $4500. If it only saves 4-9 mpg, you will get $3500.

And the new vehicle must get at least 22 mpg or the deal is off the table.

There is different criteria for trucks and other vehicles.

I will be eligible for $4,500 because my old truck gets [[per cars.gov site) 16 mpg. All the vehicles I researched, and I tried to compare apples-to-apples with engine sizes, transmissions, etc., purportedly get 27 mpg or better. If Dodge does not want to give me their advertised $4,500, plus maybe a little more for brand loyalty, then I don't have to buy from them. I would be a return Kia customer, too, if I decided I really wanted the Soul, and I would not be afraid to tell either dealer about the other possibility.

Regarding the bait-and-switched seniors, isn't there a 3-day cool-off on contracts in this state? In case of buyer's remorse or whatever might change a contractee's mind. Or am I out in left field with this thought?

**Moetown** · July-25-09, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by rvtwitty

Metro people, be on the look out for shady dealers taking advanatge of senior citizens turning in older cars. A lot of add on charges in contracts, weird warranties. There is some major swindling going on. Also be on the lookout for repair shops and dealers trying to sell power steering flushes. It is the newest scam in town. Rarely needed at upwards of 150 bucks. Could actually harm the system on older cars.

The only time a P/S flush is needed is when you have a pump or steering rack/pinion failure, to clean out debris caused by the failure, it is NOT a regular maintenance procedure. If done wrong, it will cause air in the system, followed by a severe wallet failure..

It is a scam dealers and others run all the time, but has nothing to do with the clunker program, other than it brings new fish into the pond..

As far as dealers adding on charges and warranties, again nothing new and not related to the clunker program. It is standard practice for certain scumbag dealers.

rvtwitty · July-25-09, 07:50 PM

I am not going to reveal details I do not have. This is not an urban legend either. What in the world is wrong with you people. I personally do not have the contract or would even dare post in on a forum where there seems to be not so nice posters. I am not going to be subject to or subject my friends parents to the scrutiny of a scum dealer that could use information against them. Instead of calling me a liar, if you were decent people you would take a wait and see attitude till the proper authorities are contacted. I won't be goaded into naming the dealer and be sued. If you don't believe, that is your problem. But a lot of people sure are thinking about this situation and know it is very possibly true. Which it is. I can't convince everybody. If I get just one person to stop and think , stop a swindle in it's tracks, then my posting here is worth it. My conscience is clear. Crystal.

rvtwitty · July-25-09, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Moetown

The only time a P/S flush is needed is when you have a pump or steering rack/pinion failure, to clean out debris caused by the failure, it is NOT a regular maintenance procedure. If done wrong, it will cause air in the system, followed by a severe wallet failure..

It is a scam dealers and others run all the time, but has nothing to do with the clunker program, other than it brings new fish into the pond..

As far as dealers adding on charges and warranties, again nothing new and not related to the clunker program. It is standard practice for certain scumbag dealers.

Re read my posts. The couple did not have to buy now. They went in for the clunker program. They would have waited. till their old car fell apart. They pay taxes. They might as well go for a program they can qualify for. Not though when the dealer takes advantage. There has always been dirtball dealers. Not all, but some. This is a federal program folks. Your tax dollars. And I know one dealer scamming. When we have Medicare fraud, a federal program paid for with tax dollars, scammers need to be caught there to. Same with the clunker program.

Stosh · July-25-09, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by rvtwitty

I am not going to reveal details I do not have. This is not an urban legend either. What in the world is wrong with you people. I personally do not have the contract or would even dare post in on a forum where there seems to be not so nice posters. I am not going to be subject to or subject my friends parents to the scrutiny of a scum dealer that could use information against them. Instead of calling me a liar, if you were decent people you would take a wait and see attitude till the proper authorities are contacted. I won't be goaded into naming the dealer and be sued. If you don't believe, that is your problem. But a lot of people sure are thinking about this situation and know it is very possibly true. Which it is. I can't convince everybody. If I get just one person to stop and think , stop a swindle in it's tracks, then my posting here is worth it. My conscience is clear. Crystal.

Really, Crystal. It's not that hard to wait and have concrete proof before you choose to throw out accusations of this sort on a public forum. You would think that you would have taken your own advice and take a wait and see attitude until the proper authorities are contacted. But you didn't. And your tone about Obama leads me to think that there's a hidden axe you are grinding somewhere.

Believe me, before I sign ANYTHING, I would ask to see the whole contract. And this probably has nothing to do with this program, and more to do with their ability to be decieved.

**Moetown** · July-25-09, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by rvtwitty

Re read my posts. The couple did not have to buy now. They went in for the clunker program. They would have waited. till their old car fell apart. They pay taxes. They might as well go for a program they can qualify for. Not though when the dealer takes advantage. There has always been dirtball dealers. Not all, but some. This is a federal program folks. Your tax dollars. And I know one dealer scamming. When we have Medicare fraud, a federal program paid for with tax dollars, scammers need to be caught there to. Same with the clunker program.

I read the post, that is why I responded to it.
I know the program gets people into a dealer to buy cars that they would normally wait to buy. Thats what it is supposed to do.

That said, once anybody gets into a dealer, the dealer will not care who anybody is, they will do everything they can to screw you out of money. They do not care about how old or young, federal programs or even if you actually work for the dealer.

After buying a car new or used, always check the contract before and after signing, they love to add extra warranties in the blank spaces.. The final contract that you get in the mail can have a few additions...

**Moetown** · July-25-09, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Really, Crystal. It's not that hard to wait and have concrete proof before you choose to throw out accusations of this sort on a public forum. You would think that you would have taken your own advice and take a wait and see attitude until the proper authorities are contacted. But you didn't. And your tone about Obama leads me to think that there's a hidden axe you are grinding somewhere.

Believe me, before I sign ANYTHING, I would ask to see the whole contract. And this probably has nothing to do with this program, and more to do with their ability to be decieved.

I believe her, I know dealers do it, and have been for at least 30 years.
The problem is the only relation to the program is that it brings in new customers..
Everything she said about the p/s flush and warranties is true and has been going on for the 30 years I have been a mechanic. The add on warranty actually happened to me, and no it was not in the contract I signed..

Stosh · July-25-09, 08:40 PM

Well of COURSE she's right in that respect. I'm sure that there's thousands of dealers and salesmen that would take andvantage of their own mother if they thought there would be a buck in it for them. That's not the point I was trying to make. The saying "Let the buyer beware" wasn't coined for no reason.

**wash_man** · July-25-09, 09:17 PM

"It has nothing to do with the cost of the vehicle. It has to do with the mpg saved with new car vs. old car."

"It" has everything to do with price because I was referring to the Chrysler match, not the CFC money. True, the CFC money doesn't take into consideration the value of the vehicles [[except you can't purchase one for more than 45K), but I was talking about the Chrysler matching funds. The CFC considers the mpg as you stated.

**Novine** · July-25-09, 09:18 PM

"Novine, you sound like a car salesman."

I'm not a car salesman, used or new, and I wasn't defending what the dealership did. It sounds sneaky and dishonest. But you still have provided no explanation of how this has anything to do with "cash for clunkers". Did the couple's car qualify? Did they get the value for the car that they should have for the program? If your beef is that the dealership was promoting this program and then got the couple to sign off on extras they didn't need, how does that become a federal case? Unless the dealer is scamming the feds, the feds are not going to get involved because of some scam pulled by the dealer. The Attorney General is another story. I'm sure Mike Cox would love to run a commercial or put up a billboard about busting dishonest car dealers.

If you know the name of the dealer and you know the story to be true, why are you protecting the guilty?

"Oh, Novine doesn't sell cars. He's a straight shooter even if he's a bit left of Stalin."

Thanks, I guess. Uncle Joe is a bit pissed though.

**gnome** · July-25-09, 09:55 PM

well put Novine. Tell Uncle Joe I say "hey" next time you have him over for borcst.

this whole thing sounds hinkey

rvtwitty · July-26-09, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

well put Novine. Tell Uncle Joe I say "hey" next time you have him over for borcst.

this whole thing sounds hinkey

I am quite familiar with message boards. Been posting for years about soap operas. Try dealing with some of those people. I know how there are trolls that love to debate whether the sky is blue. I post at the freep and the tv sations a lot. Have some cyber friends that know me to be truthful at all times about any subject. My friends involved with this situation and their parents do not surf the net or boards like I do.Some of my cyber pals post here but absent this weekend. I read this board, but do not post a lot, kind of new here. Having said that, my purpose is to inform and help someone that might be buying a car soon. How to watch out for tricks. My friends involved with this swindle I have described will handle everything just fine. Maybe they will get the 2 grand back. Maybe not. But hopefully governemnt officials will step in do something to right the wrong. Calling my story hinkey or an urban legend is rude. I do have a thick skin and can battle with the best of them. It is the readers personal decision to believe or not to believe what I write here. I will tell what I heard about the dealer. One neighbor leased from them. Said he had one minor problem with the lease and the home company took care of it. His previous leases from them were good. Another neighbor liked them, loved his car . One neighbor said they are crooks and always have been. There you have it. Once I know more, I may post the outcome. This situation could drag out, not resolved for a while. But I will let this board know. I bought a car there when it was under another name years ago. Did not care for the service department.

**oladub** · July-26-09, 11:29 AM

I don't have any problem with someone taking the $4,500. If the government is throwing money away, it only makes sense to pick it up. Geithner doesn't even know which foreign banks received $500,000,000,000 from the Federal Reserve.

The problem is with the program. It might not even save energy. The reason is that this program does not consider "embodied energy".

"An older car will probably use more fuel per mile during its remaining time on the road. However, manufacturing a car takes a lot of energy and materials - some estimates say this embodied energy equals 15% of the total fuel used during the life of vehicle - so many people still see an older car as the greener choice." http://www.greenchoices.org/index.php/car-use

In addition, if this is an imported car from Japan, how many gallons of diesel fuel are required to transport the new car 5,700 miles and return the ship empty?