Pontiac the Next Royal Oak?

**paulj313** · May-05-14, 03:32 PM

http://deadlinedetroit.com/articles/...k#.U2f0dF58vy9

I chuckled about this one a bit. Do you think Pontiac has potential for a rebirth?

**Hermod** · May-05-14, 03:36 PM

It needs a very persuasive Marcus Garvey before rebirth.

**animatedmartian** · May-05-14, 04:07 PM

If there are enough jobs located in/near Pontiac, I wouldn't see why not. Most of Royal Oak's growth comes from yuppies who'd likely live in Downtown Detroit but can't or choose not to because of obvious reasons.

**Honky Tonk** · May-05-14, 04:18 PM

I think it could be the next Midtown.

**Detroitnerd** · May-05-14, 04:26 PM

I don't think Pontiac is in a good position for a comeback. Mostly because it's located in a county and state that doesn't really understand or support older central cities.

**Scottathew** · May-05-14, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I don't think Pontiac is in a good position for a comeback. Mostly because it's located in a county and state that doesn't really understand or support older central cities.

The more I think about this statement, the more it seems true. I can think of too many examples, Detroit, Pontiac, Mt. Clemens, etc...

The solution always seem to be to go to the edge of civilization, and build more civilization.

**animatedmartian** · May-05-14, 05:41 PM

It's more expensive to renovate than it is to build new. At least, if you want to preserve anything.

This isn't something unique to Michigan. Pretty much any rust belt state is going to have decaying old urban city centers. The economy needs to be able to support rebuilding.

**Danny** · May-05-14, 06:18 PM

It will be in the year 2030 when Pontiac comes back.

**brizee** · May-05-14, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

It needs a very persuasive Marcus Garvey before rebirth.

Could you expand on this? I'm not quite sure I get it.

**hybridy** · May-05-14, 06:36 PM

These can't hurt...

http://www.dbusiness.com/daily-news/#article2

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/n.../0430-prc.html

**Detroitnerd** · May-05-14, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

Could you expand on this? I'm not quite sure I get it.

Marcus Garvey founded the Black Star Line, which promoted the return of the African diaspora to their ancestral lands.

Therefore, if we had somebody who could convince all the blacks, at least all the ones in Pontiac, to move back to Africa, then the redevelopment of Pontiac could begin.

**rb336** · May-05-14, 09:06 PM

When pigs fly

**Cliffy** · May-05-14, 09:20 PM

No. They aren't centrally located and don't have the 696 and I-75 interchange.

**brizee** · May-05-14, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Marcus Garvey founded the Black Star Line, which promoted the return of the African diaspora to their ancestral lands.

Therefore, if we had somebody who could convince all the blacks, at least all the ones in Pontiac, to move back to Africa, then the redevelopment of Pontiac could begin.

Suspected as much.

I'm just amazed someone could have the balls to broadcast a statement like that

Yet be so craven to couch with a shitty joke [[that he's used in more than one thread already).

**Bham1982** · May-05-14, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

No. They aren't centrally located and don't have the 696 and I-75 interchange.

This. Pontiac is poorly located.

And the building stock is nondescript-to-terrible. But it isn't really a problem that needs to be fixed. Poor people need somewhere to live too.

**illwill** · May-05-14, 10:31 PM

Wow!

Twenty-five years later and the S.E. Michigan mind-set STILL has not changed one bit. I use to hate seeing all of these little towns trying to out-compete each other to become the next Detroit. Detroit may be a dump now, the same as it was a dump 25 years ago but NO city/suburb in Michigan can remotely come close to Detroit on it's worst day. If R.O., Ferndale, B'Ham, Downriver, Pontiac etc... supported the REAL Metropolitan Downtown [[Detroit), we'd be a city on the scale of Chicago, New York, D.C or Philly today. Nothing has changed over the past 25 years. Detroit is still the enemy to the burbs and the end result is we STILL don't have a vibrant, bustling, thriving, booming big city in the State of Michigan. The S.E. Michigan region is screwed... and by watching these videos, I don't think it'll ever thrive.

I'm not blaming the burbs for wanting their cities to bustle but they have to understand that for the region to thrive, Detroit has to be the draw. S.E Michiganders EITHER don't understand this or we SERIOUSLY want Detroit to fail and want nothing to do with the city at all.

This my friends, is what is causing so many young people to move away for decades now, and counting. Royal Oak is not a big city and it doesn't have a big city feel either. Nor does B'Ham, Pontiac or Ferndale. This problem has caused our largest city to fall into the ranks that it has. To be compared to Oklahoma City, Grand Rapids and Cleveland. Very sad!

**313WX** · May-05-14, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by illwill

Wow!

Twenty-five years later and the S.E. Michigan mind-set STILL has not changed one bit. I use to hate seeing all of these little towns trying to out-compete each other to become the next Detroit. Detroit may be a dump now, the same as it was a dump 25 years ago but NO city/suburb in Michigan can remotely come close to Detroit on it's worst day. If R.O., Ferndale, B'Ham, Downriver, Pontiac etc... supported the REAL Metropolitan Downtown [[Detroit), we'd be a city on the scale of Chicago, New York, D.C or Philly today. Nothing has changed over the past 25 years. Detroit is still the enemy to the burbs and the end result is we still don't have a vibrant, bustling, thriving, booming big city in the State of Michigan. The S.E. Michigan region is screwed and by watching these videos, I don't think it'll ever thrive. I'm not blaming the burbs for wanting their cities to bustle but they have to understand that for the region to thrive, Detroit has to be the draw. S.E Michiganders don't understand this or either we SERIOUSLY want Detroit to fail and want nothing to do with the city at all.

This my friends is what has caused so many young people to move away.

People here I think are OK with living in a 2nd rate region that's stagnant/declining as long as they're not "bailing out Detroit" [[with "Detroit" being a euphemism for all of the negative aspects that consume much of the city). And if they want something different, Chicago is only a few hours away in a car ride.

The logic isn't the most sound, nor is it the most progressive, but to each their collective own.

**illwill** · May-05-14, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

People here I think are OK with living in a 2nd rate region that's stagnant/declining as long as they're not "bailing out Detroit" [[with "Detroit" being a euphemism for all of the negative aspects that consume much of the city). And if they want something different, Chicago is only a few hours away in a car ride.

The logic isn't the most sound, nor is it the most progressive, but to each his/her collective own.

Please note: I made a few adjustments.

**illwill** · May-05-14, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

People here I think are OK with living in a 2nd rate region that's stagnant/declining as long as they're not "bailing out Detroit" [[with "Detroit" being a euphemism for all of the negative aspects that consume much of the city). And if they want something different, Chicago is only a few hours away in a car ride.

The logic isn't the most sound, nor is it the most progressive, but to each his/her collective own.

And Toronto as well...

**nain rouge** · May-06-14, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

But it isn't really a problem that needs to be fixed. Poor people need somewhere to live too.

Yeah! That's right! Kick those stupid poor people while they're down!

Oh, you want a bus to get to work? Stupid poor person, go back to Pontiac!

Stuck renting from slumlords that could care less about rats and building codes? Oh, they won't let you own a house because they'd rather let it sit abandoned than hand it to the likes of you? Stupid poor person, go back to Pontiac!

Wait? What's that? There aren't enough houses left in Pontiac? You say you're looking at a cheap apartment near Birmingham?

OH GOD, NO! THE HUMANITY!

**Bham1982** · May-06-14, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by illwill

This my friends, is what is causing so many young people to move away for decades now, and counting.

Then how do you explain Chicago having even lower population growth rates than Detroit? Chicago has arguably the second best city core in the nation. At absolute worst it's top 6 or so [[Excepting obvious NYC, I would say Boston, DC, Philly, SF are the only cities that could match or top Chicago in urban core).

How do you explain Pittsburgh and Cleveland having much worse population growth than Detroit? Metro Detroit is growing, Metro Pittsburgh and Cleveland are declining. They are much more centralized than Metro Detroit, so if centralization were correlated with growth, then they should be killing Detroit.

And why is Houston absolutely booming and about to pass Chicago in [[city proper) population? Houston is a poster child for sprawl and makes Detroit sprawl look like childs play.

**Bham1982** · May-06-14, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Yeah! That's right! Kick those stupid poor people while they're down!

Hilarious. What exactly is wrong with having places for working class residents? I thought evil Oakland County was only for evil yuppies.

You want to kick people out of their homes and replace them with d-bags and Buffalo Wild Wings, and turn Pontiac into a Royal Oak. I see nothing wrong with having working class areas that aren't filled with drunken idiots and poseurs.

**DetroitPlanner** · May-06-14, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Then how do you explain Chicago having even lower population growth rates than Detroit? Chicago has arguably the second best city core in the nation. At absolute worst it's top 6 or so [[Excepting obvious NYC, I would say Boston, DC, Philly, SF are the only cities that could match or top Chicago in urban core).

How do you explain Pittsburgh and Cleveland having much worse population growth than Detroit? Metro Detroit is growing, Metro Pittsburgh and Cleveland are declining. They are much more centralized than Metro Detroit, so if centralization were correlated with growth, then they should be killing Detroit.

And why is Houston absolutely booming and about to pass Chicago in [[city proper) population? Houston is a poster child for sprawl and makes Detroit sprawl look like childs play.

A. Murder rates are now impacting the growth rates?
B. Both cities are worse off than we are. Yes there are bright spots, but on a whole the colleges and Cleveland Clinic are not enough of a draw.
C. It is because it is the originator of the downtown sea of parking lots? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ho...0d02def365053b

**nain rouge** · May-06-14, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Hilarious. What exactly is wrong with having places for working class residents? I thought evil Oakland County was only for evil yuppies.

Your idea that there's nothing to fix in Pontiac is hilarious. It has nothing to do Buffalo Wild Wings and everything to do with the issues I touched in my initial post. I don't think there is anyone living in Pontiac that would object that the city sure could use more quality housing and better public services.

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Then how do you explain Chicago having even lower population growth rates than Detroit?

Chicago is overrated, in a sense, by Detroiters. It's certainly not a model of perfection, and although it's THE outlier in the Midwest, it's still inundated with typical rust belt problems. At its heart, its Detroit with way more inertia, that attribute owing to its historic size and importance.

Also, your growth numbers are off. I know you'll argue this until you're blue in the face, but the truth is in the pudding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas .

To avoid confusion, I'll explain how to analyze the chart on that Wikipedia page in the most simplistic terms: Green is good. Green is growth. Red is bad. Red is shrinking. Chicago is green. Chicago is good. Chicago is growth. Detroit is red. Detroit is bad. Detroit is shrinking.

I can't wait to see how you refute me. It'll be an interesting experiment in denial, for sure.

**Bham1982** · May-06-14, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Your idea that there's nothing to fix in Pontiac is hilarious.

I never said there was "nothing to fix" in Pontiac.

However, this whole thread isn't about "fixing" Pontiac, it's about building up Pontiac as a Royal Oak-type destination, which does zero for existing residents.

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Also, your growth numbers are off. I know you'll argue this until you're blue in the face, but the truth is in the pudding:

No, your growth numbers are wrong. I am using official Census data from this year, which shows that Detroit is growing the same or slightly faster than Chicago, and both Pittsburgh and Cleveland are losing population.

You are using Wikipedia, which is garbage.