Have any of you been to Grand Rapids lately? Holy cow, it's kicking Detroit's tail.

27 Mile · April-05-14, 12:01 PM

I'm not just saying this to get a rise. I was in downtown Grand Rapids this week and what I saw blew me away. GR has the new and old buildings cultivating the urban vibe the kids and yuppies want. Lots of new construction. Grand Valley, MSU medical school, a few hospital centers. Streets are super clean. No homeless or sketchy loiters. An unbelievable amount of foot traffic! It is the closest thing to a Chicago nabe I've seen in Michigan.

Grand Rapids feels like it's at least a decade ahead of corktown, midtown and dtown Detroit triangle, with no sign of slowing down. I have to assume there's a lot less bureaucracy to deal with there as well, which is much more attractive to businesses and young people on the move.

Forget Chicago or Pittsburg, Detroit needs to figure out GR's secret.

**stasu1213** · April-05-14, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by 27 Mile

I'm not just saying this to get a rise. I was in downtown Grand Rapids this week and what I saw blew me away. GR has the new and old buildings cultivating the urban vibe the kids and yuppies want. Lots of construction. Grand Valley, MSU medical school, a few hospital centers. Everything is super clean. No sketchy homeless or loiters. An unbelievable amount of foot traffic. It is the closest thing to a Chicago neighborhood I've seen in Michigan, possibly even cleaner and safer feeling than a Chicago neighborhood.

Grand Rapids feels like it's at least a decade ahead of corktown, midtown and dtown Detroit triangle, with no sign of slowing down. I have to assume there's a lot less bureaucracy to deal with there as well, which is much more attractive to businesses and young people on the move.

Forget Chicago or Pittsburg, Detroit needs to figure out GR's secret.

Detroit cant even get its Starbucks to open ontime at Campus Martius. Detroit problem is a few old men are controlling the whole show. Thet sit on buildings and other structures around the city for tax purpose probably. They pay elected officials to turn the other way.The city building snd safety inspection makes it hard for small businesses to open due to delays after delays of the final inspection date. Detroit is still trying to figure out if its going to be the old detroit which was more automotive freindly or go the nre 21st century way which would be more pedestrian, bicycle, and transit friendlier

**Lombaowski** · April-05-14, 01:30 PM

You know what Grand Rapids has that Detroit doesn't?

Taxpayers

**nain rouge** · April-05-14, 01:41 PM

I hate to say it, 27 Mile, but the more you travel, the more you'll see what a mess Detroit is. I recently took a mini-Rust Belt tour, hitting Battle Creek, Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, Bloomington, Spencer [[a very small but historic Indiana town with old-fashioned urban planning), Columbus [[Indiana, not Ohio), Cincinnati, and Toledo. I know - I'm crazy. It's not what most people would call a vacation, but I really enjoyed myself.

Anywho, the real point I was getting to is that some of those cities really kicked Detroit's butt despite being much smaller. Let me run down the list:

Battle Creek: Small - too small to compare to Detroit. It had a few good things going for it but it was kinda dead. It looked pretty, at least.

Fort Wayne: Had some great restaurants and historic neighborhoods. Overall, greater downtown area was fairly competitive with Detroit. The lack of decay and continuous nature of development gave it a boost.

Indianapolis: Great, beautiful downtown. Not perfect, but beats the pants off Detroit. They actually have a heavily trafficked mall in the center of the city! It doesn't have as much historic big city urban development as Detroit, but has some wonderfully intact vintage neighborhoods with outstanding urban parks.

Bloomington: Too small to compete with Detroit, but is very competitive with and similar to Ann Arbor, and is about as far from Indy as A2 is from Detroit. The big edge A2 has on Bloomington is that Michigan U is still significantly more prestigious than Indiana U, so that's brings in a little more culture and wealth. But Bloomington is nothing to sneeze at.

Spencer: Small rural town, similar to Richmond in Macomb County.

Columbus, IN: Royal Oak on MASSIVE STEROIDS. Pretty cool town with great architecture. I dined at a vintage turn of the century ice cream parlor. It was a neat experience. However, unlike Royal Oak, Columbus is at the center of its own metropolitan region. Probably the thrills of downtown would get old eventually, and anywhere else is kinda far.

Cincinnati: SLAYS DETROIT. Makes Detroit look like a sick joke. Despite the metro being about half the size of Detroit's overall, Cincinnati is way more urban than Detroit and feels bigger as a consequence. Cinci has some ghettos, but there are tons of great, safe urban neighborhoods in the city with no visible decay. The Over the Rhine district is truly the San Francisco of the Midwest, and while it's been hit hard over the decades, the city is in the process of installing light rail to aid the revitalization of the area. I saw the tracks in the street! Also has some great old money cultural institutions.

Toledo: Downtown is dead for the most part. Worse than Detroit in that aspect, except less decayed [[of course, that's gonna hold true almost anywhere). However, there is a lot more life in Toledo's outer neighborhoods than Detroit. Whereas the "Avenue of Fashion" on Livernois is a big exception to the rule in Detroit, Toledo still has quite a few areas like that. You do get a sense of economic depression, however. All in all, I'd say it's even with Detroit.

**nain rouge** · April-05-14, 01:48 PM

Also, I've been to Grand Rapids a few times, and while it looks great, has some good shops, and would be nice place to live, it doesn't rival the culture of Detroit yet. That's the one area we still have them beat. Grand Rapids spends a lot of advertising money bragging about its food and beer, but really, neither are as good as what you can get in Detroit.

27 Mile · April-05-14, 01:50 PM

nain rouge, my point on Grand Rapids is that it is in state. I don't think it's any secret that cities in other states are beating our butt, but a lot of Detroit's problems tend to be blamed on the state's suffering, at least to a certain degree. Well I'm here to tell you that Grand Rapids is somehow still thriving. Furthermore, Grand Rapids is very close and approachable for MSU, GVSU, Western, Central Hope and Calvin graduates. GR just appeared to be run really really well. They are big on optics, because for the life of me I can't look back and think of anything that was an eye sore. People act like Detroit is the only city in Michigan for that "city experience" kids and yuppies want. Well, Grand Rapids already has it.

**nain rouge** · April-05-14, 01:56 PM

The west side of the state is completely different world from the east side. While the west side is still "Rust Belt", it's fared a lot better, probably because it was forced to develop a more diverse economy. Kalamazoo, Holland, and Traverse City are way better than Flint, Saginaw, and Pontiac, lol. That's the auto industry for ya. She giveth and then she taketh away.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-05-14, 02:20 PM

She giveth and then she taketh away.

True... Orr had it about right. We were so successful we never believed we had to change. Other cities adjusted and improved. We fought each other.

**rb336** · April-05-14, 03:35 PM

There is no "Grand Rapids" secret. They did not suffer the flight of more than half of their population. They have two billionaire families that are willing to pump money into the city. We have two who own most of the city and do more lip service. The city itself is far more compact.

That is the real issue - Detroit is a sprawling mess [[I have no idea what the people who claim the opposite were on).

Would I rather live there than here? no. not by a long shot.

What, other than cleaner streets and an alleged lack of homeless does GR have that is better than Detroit? Restaurants? no. Entertainment options? get real. Shopping downtown? yes

27 Mile · April-05-14, 03:48 PM

"Sprawling mess"
Grand Rapids: 45 sq/miles, 180k population; Detroit: 140 sq/miles, 700k population.

Restaurants?
Restaurants within walking distance in GR easily trump any neighborhood in Detroit.

Entertainment options?
No they don't have the Wings, Tigers or Lions. Van Andel does get many big name concerts. And has the minor league hockey team.

"What, other than cleaner streets and an alleged lack of homeless does GR have that is better than Detroit?"
Um, cleanliness and walkability is huge. I saw hundreds of happy people out walking around GR. I don't know one area of Detroit that looks like that on a weekend unless there's a baseball game.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-05-14, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by 27 Mile

"Sprawling mess"
Grand Rapids: 45 sq/miles, 180k population; Detroit: 140 sq/miles, 700k population.

Restaurants?
Restaurants within walking distance in GR easily trump any neighborhood in Detroit.

Entertainment options?
No they don't have the Wings, Tigers or Lions. Van Andel does get many big name concerts. And has the minor league hockey team.

"What, other than cleaner streets and an alleged lack of homeless does GR have that is better than Detroit?"
Um, cleanliness and walkability is huge. I saw hundreds of happy people out walking around GR. I don't know one area of Detroit that looks like that on a weekend unless there's a baseball game.

Detroit: 5,000 per square mile population. GR: 4,000. Detroit is 25 percent less sprawly!

Walking from where? Mexicantown, Greektown, Cadieux Cafe, downtown?

You forgot the baseball team that plays way out in the burbs.

You must not get around much to think only baseball games have crowds. Try Warren and Cass, Eastern Market, New Center, Congress and Griswold......

Come in from 27 Mile more often. You will be surprised.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-05-14, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

There is no "Grand Rapids" secret. They did not suffer the flight of more than half of their population. They have two billionaire families that are willing to pump money into the city. We have two who own most of the city and do more lip service. The city itself is far more compact.

That is the real issue - Detroit is a sprawling mess [[I have no idea what the people who claim the opposite were on).

Would I rather live there than here? no. not by a long shot.

What, other than cleaner streets and an alleged lack of homeless does GR have that is better than Detroit? Restaurants? no. Entertainment options? get real. Shopping downtown? yes

Blame others. Blame size. Blame density. Woe is me. Its so sad what everyone did to us. We're different.

We may be different. But the things you listed have ZERO to do with why we sank while others floated.

GR is propped up by the rich? Sure, true to some extent. But you think Detroit's not been propped up? I assume you mean Ilitch and Gilbert. You're unhappy they're buying property? That's odd. But let's leave that aside for now. There have been dozens and dozens of benefactors for Detroit. Let me start the list beyond those two. Penske. Max Fisher.

Others can add to this at bury this thread in rich people who have contributed mightily to Detroit. Oh, and I don't call it propping up. I call it investment. OK, let's keep going. All this propping up by the rich people. Do you want to next tell us how the 1% hordes their money? Go tell that to Roger Penske, would ya? Or #1 1%er Bill Gates who is eradicating poverty and disease around the world. I know not every 1%er is generous. Be grateful for 1%ers every time you visit a Carnegie Library. [[Stepping down from soap box now.)

**rex** · April-05-14, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lombaowski

You know what Grand Rapids has that Detroit doesn't?

Taxpayers

Worse than that. Detroit effectively has negative taxpayers. No offense to those of you living in the city paying taxes. I mean it. But I would be surprised if the taxes paid by city residents covered a fraction of the food stamp/welfare received by those unable to contribute.

27 Mile · April-05-14, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Blame others. Blame size. Blame density. Woe is me. Its so sad what everyone did to us. We're different.

We may be different. But the things you listed have ZERO to do with why we sank while others floated.

Took the words out of my mouth.

27 Mile · April-05-14, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

GR is propped up by the rich? Sure, true to some extent. But you think Detroit's not been propped up? I assume you mean Ilitch and Gilbert. You're unhappy they're buying property? That's odd. But let's leave that aside for now. There have been dozens and dozens of benefactors for Detroit. Let me start the list beyond those two. Penske. Max Fisher.

If people like rb336 really believe GR is where it's at because of actions of a few rich guys, why can't Detroit replicate it? Greater Detroit has a far higher concentration of wealth than the west side of the state.

27 Mile · April-05-14, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Detroit: 5,000 per square mile population. GR: 4,000. Detroit is 25 percent less sprawly!

Walking from where? Mexicantown, Greektown, Cadieux Cafe, downtown?

You must not get around much to think only baseball games have crowds. Try Warren and Cass, Eastern Market, New Center, Congress and Griswold.

You exaggerated Detroit's sprawl compared to GR and when called out on it you double down? Both cities are fairly comparable in that regard.

Pedestrians were walking all over downtown Grand Rapids. I do not see anything like that ever in Detroit.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-05-14, 04:29 PM

One thing Grand Rapids lacks: brick houses. I actually am a native Grand Rapidian. While it has some interesting neighborhoods, there is nothing in GR that ever appealed to me as much as the University District, Sherwood Forest or parts of Green Acres, among other Detroit neighborhoods. If you wanted a 1920's or 30's house in GR with more than 1 or 1.5 bathrooms, you'd have a very difficult time finding one. I think GR lacked the money in that era to build very many larger homes, and/or perhaps the conservative Dutchmen avoided luxury.

There certainly are parts of the city that have made a remarkable comeback. Wealthy Street, S.E., around the now trendy Wealthy Theater, was totally ghetto in the 60's and 70's. I never would have imaged that area being revitalized.

**313WX** · April-05-14, 04:35 PM

I have no reason to go to Grand Rapids, sorry.

**Spartan** · April-05-14, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by 27 Mile

You exaggerated Detroit's sprawl compared to GR and when called out on it you double down? Both cities are fairly comparable in that regard.

Pedestrians were walking all over downtown Grand Rapids. I do not see anything like that ever in Detroit, period. It seriously blew me away, I had no idea that existed in Michigan outside of the Oakland burbs and Ann Arbor. Detroit is a ghost town trying to cultivate what GR currently has.

Uh... Ever been to Greektown?

**animatedmartian** · April-05-14, 05:04 PM

I'd like to visit GR someday. It's nice to see a Michigan city actually growing aside from Detroit's suburbs or Ann Arbor. I probably wouldn't really choose it over Chicago as far as places to live though. Detroit is still the only city/metro in the state with big city amenities and a big city population.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-05-14, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by 27 Mile

You exaggerated Detroit's sprawl compared to GR and when called out on it you double down? Both cities are fairly comparable in that regard.

Pedestrians were walking all over downtown Grand Rapids. I do not see anything like that ever in Detroit.

If you look at GR you will notice that it has approximately the same ratio of persons living in the suburbs as Detroit has. As you see on page 24 the Metropolitan area has well over a million people, but the central city is much less than 20 percent of the region's population. This indicates that Grand Rapids is just as sprawled as Detroit is in terms of proportion. The newest freeways in the state were built here including the brand new M-6 and the newly widened 196.

As I mentioned earlier, you need to get down from 27 Mile more often.

I find it kind of funny that someone who calls themseves 27 Mile road is dissing sprawl.

**bragaboutme** · April-05-14, 09:21 PM

Let's be honest. GR has nothing on detroit, absolutely nothing. Even with all the abandoned buildings no other city in michigan can compare.

**rb336** · April-05-14, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by 27 Mile

"Sprawling mess"
Grand Rapids: 45 sq/miles, 180k population; Detroit: 140 sq/miles, 700k population.

I didn't say it has more sprawl, I said it was a sprawling mess. Neighborhoods separated by tracts of virtual wasteland.

**Zacha341** · April-06-14, 06:53 AM

And that makes a huge difference. I've been to GR a few times lately and have friends living there. I was told I would not like as it is so ''conservative". I found it great, for what I'd like for my life at this point. It felt more prosperous than the D and safer, though the housing stock was not as good as Detroit, but far, far less boarded up or burnt out.

I'd consider relocating there, but I'd miss the far larger Detroit riverfront.

Originally Posted by Lombaowski

You know what Grand Rapids has that Detroit doesn't?

Taxpayers

**TTime** · April-06-14, 08:37 AM

Friendly people, great architecture and plenty of good restaurants and bars to choose from in GR. If you have a chance to stay at the Amway Grand I would definitely recommend doing so and if you can't then at least walk through the lobby and ball rooms. Another great thing about Grand Rapids is the proximity to the towns and beaches of West Michigan. You will notice that many of the people that work downtown live in the burbs or in beach towns along lake Michigan and there doesn't seem to be any kind of suburb vs city tension. I have coworkers and clients in Grand Rapids and in general they are very happy with and proud of their city. It is worth mentioning that people say hi on the street and have a tendency to smile wide and often over there so that doesn't hurt the experience either.