An interesting proposition....crime thoughts.

[corktownyuppie]

DPD Chief Craig was reported to be on WJR last week commenting about how he's never seen a culture of crime that has gotten so bad than in Detroit. Rapists with blowtorches. Fathers teaching their children how to rob liquor stores.

It does make wonder if it would be worth having Belle Isle-style policing throughout the city.

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...e-isle-reports

And even if not, what if we just had 30 cops whose job it was to drive around neighborhoods and just pickup people with outstanding arrest warrants.

The fact that you can have 5 arrest warrants outstanding and still not be in jail is just ridiculous.

[Detroit Stylin]

Hmmmmmm maybe the state's constant gutting of things like social programs, after school programs, summer job programs, education and the like might be a factor? But no of course no one outside the city of Detroit is culpable with any of the social problems that we have in any way shape or form. That would mean that the would actually have to HELP do something about it...

[Honky Tonk]

Hmmmmmm maybe the state's constant gutting of things like social programs, after school programs, summer job programs, education and the like might be a factor? But no of course no one outside the city of Detroit is culpable with any of the social problems that we have in any way shape or form. That would mean that the would actually have to HELP do something about it...

What you need is to get of your asses and start helping yourselves. 50 years of State and Federal social programs has done nothing to alleviate any of the social issues. Take some responsibility for your actions for crying out loud. Hmmmmmmmm?

[mwilbert]

The fact that you can have 5 arrest warrants outstanding and still not be in jail is just ridiculous.

The only thing unusual about this is that there are probably more people like this running around Detroit than most cities, because Detroit has inadequate manpower and a lot of criminals. I used to work with the Boston police on this, and there were many thousands of people running around with warrants on them. The police only went looking for them when they had nothing else to do. Literally--we would print out lists by patrol area of people with outstanding warrants and if the police weren't busy they would look around and arrest them if they saw them walking around.

Note that usually these are for non-appearance in court for minor offenses, which is why they aren't a high priority. But presumably they are at least somewhat bad actors, and so the warrants do give you a way to take some questionable people off the street at least temporarily if that is what you want to do. Of course, then you have to find some place to put them, and a lot of them probably aren't particularly dangerous, so picking them up indiscriminately may not be the best use of resources.

[RaumVogel]

The best use of resources..that is the key.

/Don't ask me, I'm an arm chair warrior!

[Johnnny5]

It does make wonder if it would be worth having Belle Isle-style policing throughout the city.

If by "Belle Isle style" policing you mean sufficient manpower and the political will to actually enforce the laws then I say heck yeah it would be worth it! This is how the police normally operate in most other communities. The kind of things that won't even make a DPD officer look twice would have the cops in my suburb turning on their flashers and doing an immediate 180. I'm not really faulting Detroit Police, most are doing the best job they can given the circumstances. To me the suggestion that the CO's on Belle Isle are somehow going overboard by enforcing the laws is really indicative of just how poor enforcement of the laws in Detroit has been for some time.

[Lombaowski]

I am pretty liberal in my thoughts and politics, but I honestly believe the best thing for Detroit is quasi Martial Law. Curfews, heavy armed policing, and constant raids of known criminal activity. I'm serious, most of Detroit is essentially off the civilization grid.

[antongast]

I am pretty liberal in my thoughts and politics, but I honestly believe the best thing for Detroit is quasi Martial Law. Curfews, heavy armed policing, and constant raids of known criminal activity. I'm serious, most of Detroit is essentially off the civilization grid.

I mean, really? You think what we need is to raise a generation of Detroiters who, even more so than today's adults, regard the police as a hostile and capricious force that just swoops down out of nowhere and arbitrarily fucks with them and their friends and neighbors?

I'd argue that we've already gone too far in this direction, and that this is a large part of the problem.

[mwilbert]

I mean, really? You think what we need is to raise a generation of Detroiters who, even more so than today's adults, regard the police as a hostile and capricious force that just swoops down out of nowhere and arbitrarily fucks with them and their friends and neighbors?

I'd argue that we've already gone too far in this direction, and that this is a large part of the problem.

I don't know whether more rigorous law enforcement would be a problem or not, but I think you put your finger on it when you said "capricious" and "arbitrary". I think people can adjust to and respect consistent standards for arrest and for prosecution; the problem is that those consistent standards do not appear to exist, and so people naturally think that they are being singled out, and poor and/or minority people correctly believe that they are not treated equally by the justice system.

My impression isn't that the population of Detroit wouldn't like it if there were less crime, or fewer criminals on the street. I don't think they have any problem with the principle of enforcing laws rigorously. My impression is that they don't have confidence that it will be done fairly and professionally, or that the laws being enforced are reasonable, and I'd say they are correct not to have confidence in that.

[corktownyuppie]

I don't know whether more rigorous law enforcement would be a problem or not, but I think you put your finger on it when you said "capricious" and "arbitrary". I think people can adjust to and respect consistent standards for arrest and for prosecution; the problem is that those consistent standards do not appear to exist, and so people naturally think that they are being singled out, and poor and/or minority people correctly believe that they are not treated equally by the justice system.

My impression isn't that the population of Detroit wouldn't like it if there were less crime, or fewer criminals on the street. I don't think they have any problem with the principle of enforcing laws rigorously. My impression is that they don't have confidence that it will be done fairly and professionally, or that the laws being enforced are reasonable, and I'd say they are correct not to have confidence in that.

I agree with both mwilbert and antongast.

Heavy-handed policing that seems arbitrary will only worsen things.

The solution to arbitrary and unfair policing isn't to have less policing. We already see the effects of that. The solution is to make it professional and fair.

That's one of the reasons why I wanted to check out the Belle Isle policing. It's clear that they have they eagle eyes and are doing law enforcement with high levels of scrutiny.

But I also feel good that it appears to be equally heavy-handed toward everyone.

Antongast, if we tripled the police force but everyone got advance notice of what the rules were and how they'd be enforced, would you object? Even if it meant that some of the lax enforcement of mundane things like littering, loud music, loitering would suddenly be replaced with serious enforcement of the rules?

[antongast]

I agree with both mwilbert and antongast.

Heavy-handed policing that seems arbitrary will only worsen things.

The solution to arbitrary and unfair policing isn't to have less policing. We already see the effects of that. The solution is to make it professional and fair.

That's one of the reasons why I wanted to check out the Belle Isle policing. It's clear that they have they eagle eyes and are doing law enforcement with high levels of scrutiny.

But I also feel good that it appears to be equally heavy-handed toward everyone.

Antongast, if we tripled the police force but everyone got advance notice of what the rules were and how they'd be enforced, would you object? Even if it meant that some of the lax enforcement of mundane things like littering, loud music, loitering would suddenly be replaced with serious enforcement of the rules?

Well, first off, I'm not the one who needs to sign off on this stuff. I'm just a random dude behind a screen name. I think any solution needs broad community buy-in to be effective. And it's not a quick fix. It means working through centuries of baggage, and addressing the fact that the police in America often serve as enforcers of a system of racial and class-based oppression. It means asking hard questions about the drug war, about mass incarceration, about privatized prisons. It means asking questions like the ones Detroit Stylin was mocked and chastised for raising upthread, and actually coming up with useful answers. We're not going to figure this out in five minutes on the Internet. Shit's complicated.

But since we're here, and we're talking about this, and you asked my opinion, my opinion is that it's going to be pretty hard to implement this idea of "uniquely harsh law enforcement tactics imposed on Detroit specifically" in a manner that is not arbitrary or capricious. The project strikes me as absurd on its face. Why are we singling out Detroit? How did we decide on uniquely harsh law enforcement tactics as a solution? How is this not arbitrarily penalizing Detroiters who have committed no crime? How is this not arbitrarily penalizing Detroiters who have committed crimes, but are punished more severely than people in other places who have committed the exact same crimes? And why, for the love of Christ, are we talking about loud music and loitering? We're going to militarize the fuck out of the police so they can crack down on loiterers? In full riot gear with tanks and nerve gas? I still don't see how this doesn't end badly.

Incidentally...

[iheartthed]

Well, first off, I'm not the one who needs to sign off on this stuff. I'm just a random dude behind a screen name. I think any solution needs broad community buy-in to be effective. And it's not a quick fix. It means working through centuries of baggage, and addressing the fact that the police in America often serve as enforcers of a system of racial and class-based oppression. It means asking hard questions about the drug war, about mass incarceration, about privatized prisons. It means asking questions like the ones Detroit Stylin was mocked and chastised for raising upthread, and actually coming up with useful answers. We're not going to figure this out in five minutes on the Internet. Shit's complicated.

But since we're here, and we're talking about this, and you asked my opinion, my opinion is that it's going to be pretty hard to implement this idea of "uniquely harsh law enforcement tactics imposed on Detroit specifically" in a manner that is not arbitrary or capricious. The project strikes me as absurd on its face. Why are we singling out Detroit? How did we decide on uniquely harsh law enforcement tactics as a solution? How is this not arbitrarily penalizing Detroiters who have committed no crime? How is this not arbitrarily penalizing Detroiters who have committed crimes, but are punished more severely than people in other places who have committed the exact same crimes? And why, for the love of Christ, are we talking about loud music and loitering? We're going to militarize the fuck out of the police so they can crack down on loiterers? In full riot gear with tanks and nerve gas? I still don't see how this doesn't end badly.

Incidentally...

Can we get a "Like" button on this damn forum?

[canuck]

Can we get a "Like" button on this damn forum?

Yessir. I am reminded of a recent post by Hermod where he describes the German-Bohemian nabe he grew up in, and how safe it used to be. I cant help but think how dire the circumstances were for blacks who didnt have the "luxury" that some recent European immigrants had with the upward mobility factor ready within a generation. It didnt matter that many African Americans played their cards right, most of them couldnt make a mark in white society. The successful ones managed to raise the bar in black society, and tried to avoid the "manners" exhibited by the lower classes; but were still confined to the ghetto. That, in short is the gift that slavery has bequeathed to United States culture. Add guns to the mix, and it becomes kind of potent, in a Hollywood kind of way.

[27 Mile]

I think any solution needs broad community buy-in to be effective.

The community you speak of is 2/3 functional illiterate. 3rd and 4th generation high school drop outs, where being terminally unemployed and sponsored by the government is a way of life. The same folks that reelected Kwame. The same conspiracy folks that brainwash their kids that "the man" is the source of their problems at school, church and in the barber shop.

In short, good luck getting the "community" behind what's best for the region.

[antongast]

The community you speak of is 2/3 functional illiterate. 3rd and 4th generation high school drop outs, where being terminally unemployed and sponsored by the government is a way of life. The same folks that reelected Kwame. The same conspiracy folks that brainwash their kids that "the man" is the source of their problems at school, church and in the barber shop.

In short, good luck getting the "community" behind what's best for the region.

I guess at this point it's worth asking which problem we're trying to solve. If we're talking about the entire population of the city of Detroit as the eggs we're breaking to make the omelette, then why are we trying to make an omelette in the first place? Who's supposed to be left to eat it? Once every last Detroiter has been arrested for loitering, killed by the police while allegedly resisting arrest for loitering, or discredited and written off as an illiterate conspiracy theorist for asking why everyone else is being arrested or killed, what does Detroit become? Is it going to be a museum where nostalgic old people from the suburbs can drive down and look through the living room windows of their childhood homes and reminisce about the size of the tail fins on Dad's DeSoto? I think maybe we're not being explicit enough about what we're trying to achieve here and why.

[Detroit Stylin]

What you need is to get of your asses and start helping yourselves. 50 years of State and Federal social programs has done nothing to alleviate any of the social issues. Take some responsibility for your actions for crying out loud. Hmmmmmmmm?

Make that the last time you disrespect me....

[jaytheory]

Y I cant help but think how dire the circumstances were for blacks who didnt have the "luxury" that some recent European immigrants had with the upward mobility factor ready within a generation. It didnt matter that many African Americans played their cards right, most of them couldnt make a mark in white society. The successful ones managed to raise the bar in black society, and tried to avoid the "manners" exhibited by the lower classes; but were still confined to the ghetto. That, in short is the gift that slavery has bequeathed to United States culture. Add guns to the mix, and it becomes kind of potent, in a Hollywood kind of way.

Well said, African Americans were and still are "not good enough" to be on the same level as others


In america, generally it is success based on ones bank account or in some cases social influence that dictates class, unless your black. Then you are successful but black so inherently not worthy of higher class or complete equality, Obviously this isnt a rule written down, but it seems to work that way, and especially did in post war detroit. See Ossain Sweet for a prime Example.

[Honky Tonk]

Make that the last time you disrespect me....

You CAN'T be serious? smmh.......

[compn]

It does make wonder if it would be worth having Belle Isle-style policing throughout the city.

saw some grafitti 'martial law is coming' the other day.
i think this was along schoolcraft west of evergreen. funny though.

[Meddle]

Go back to a more civilian police department where officers have a vested interest in serving their own community. Less militarization, less of an occupying force where they come in for a few hours, then go home to Brighton.

Yeah, residency requirements. And not in Copper's Canyon on the outskirts of town. Live within the precincts they're assigned to. Know the neighborhood and the hoods that live there.

High visibility hourly. Increased street presence, less desk commanders in fancy shirts adorned with colorful ribbons sitting in offices.

If a punk kid does something stupid, hold the parents responsible also [[if they can be found). You pick up a punk, they stay in custody until one or both parents come to pick them up.

[Dan Wesson]

Well, first off, I'm not the one who needs to sign off on this stuff. I'm just a random dude behind a screen name. I think any solution needs broad community buy-in to be effective. And it's not a quick fix. It means working through centuries of baggage, and addressing the fact that the police in America often serve as enforcers of a system of racial and class-based oppression. It means asking hard questions about the drug war, about mass incarceration, about privatized prisons. It means asking questions like the ones Detroit Stylin was mocked and chastised for raising upthread, and actually coming up with useful answers. We're not going to figure this out in five minutes on the Internet. Shit's complicated.

Antongast, thumbs up dude.

[[note to self: don't gloss over anton's stuff)

[erikd]

I agree with both mwilbert and antongast.

Heavy-handed policing that seems arbitrary will only worsen things.

The solution to arbitrary and unfair policing isn't to have less policing. We already see the effects of that. The solution is to make it professional and fair.

That's one of the reasons why I wanted to check out the Belle Isle policing. It's clear that they have they eagle eyes and are doing law enforcement with high levels of scrutiny.

But I also feel good that it appears to be equally heavy-handed toward everyone.

Antongast, if we tripled the police force but everyone got advance notice of what the rules were and how they'd be enforced, would you object? Even if it meant that some of the lax enforcement of mundane things like littering, loud music, loitering would suddenly be replaced with serious enforcement of the rules?

I don't see why police in Detroit would have to be "heavy-handed" or "arbitrary" or any different than the police anywhere else in America.

The Wayne State Police Department isn't heavy-handed or arbitrarily enforcing the law, and they are a very effective law enforcement agency.

We don't need the DPD to become some kind of urban assault military SWAT type thing. We just need them to be a normally functioning police department, just like the police in 99% of the rest of America.

If the DPD would show up in a reasonable amount of time, to all calls, it would make a major difference. The standard response time of an hour doesn't cut it. The fact that the DPD won't even respond to auto thefts calls is a fucking disgrace. "Come into the police station tomorrow and fill out a report" is not an acceptable response to a person calling 911 when their car has been stolen.

We don't need tanks and machine guns to fight crime in Detroit, but we do need the police to show up when they are called.

To be clear, I am not blaming or attacking the DPD officers, because this is a systemic issue that is largely out of their control. The officers on the street are underfunded, underpaid, under equipped, and do not get the support that they need and deserve.

[erikd]

The community you speak of is 2/3 functional illiterate. 3rd and 4th generation high school drop outs, where being terminally unemployed and sponsored by the government is a way of life. The same folks that reelected Kwame. The same conspiracy folks that brainwash their kids that "the man" is the source of their problems at school, church and in the barber shop.

In short, good luck getting the "community" behind what's best for the region.

Your argument is not only racist and offensive, it is also bullshit. Crooked politicians get elected and re-elected by every segment of American voters. If you are going to vilify Detroiters for re-electing Kwame, then you should also vilify the white American voters who re-elected Richard Nixon. There weren't too many Detroiters who voted for that crook.

The corruption charges against Kwame didn't come out until he had already been re-elected, and the assertion that Detroiters would have voted for him anyway was clearly disproven when we bounced his mother out of congress in the following election, even though she was not implicated or accused of any wrongdoing.

If Detroiters were so "brainwashed" and suspicious of "the man", then we would not have elected our next two mayors from outside of the city. Detroiters want change and reform, we just aren't getting it, no matter who we vote for.

[mwilbert]

I don't see why police in Detroit would have to be "heavy-handed" or "arbitrary" or any different than the police anywhere else in America.

Being "heavy-handed" and "arbitrary" would not make them any different than the police in many places in America.

I am all in favor of law enforcement, and agree that Detroit needs more of it, but I also know why people don't necessarily think it would be an unalloyed positive. And focusing on the police is wrong; it is the entire criminal justice system that is arbitrary and unfair.

[Detroit Stylin]

You CAN'T be serious? smmh.......

Like I said. Let that be your last time. You can always try me to see if I'm bullshitting.