So OC is now paying $3M for a study to determine water options

[27 Mile]

Both Oakland and Genesee County are trying to get out of getting water from Detroit. Detroit is without question the most mismanaged city in the nation...and you all think it's LBP's problem? Come on. People don't want to deal with corrupt and inept officials in Detroit, period.

[corktownyuppie]

I don't actually think that either county is trying to get out of the water deal in Detroit. The whole point of water deal would be to put control of it into the suburbs, as they would have the majority voting bloc.

There are two reasons why I think this deal might still happen.

[[1) There's a saying I heard coming from a reliably conservative columnist about the deal, "In bankruptcy court, the louder people are yelling, the closer they are to getting a deal done."

[[2) As I mentioned earlier, what will result in the lowest increases in costs to the suburbs will also bring on the most political risk. Sure, a private operator could come in and raise rates by 35% and you can blame them. Or the suburbs could come in and take control, but they'd have to raise rates by 15% and take all the blame.

Oakland County has spent millions of dollars in the past to determine the feasibility of breaking away from DWSD. Every time they've looked at the issue, they've come to the conclusion that it's just too expensive. Especially for the duration where they are buying water from DWSD while taking on the costs of building their own.

So my bet is that they're paying for the study to have objective consultants come out and say what they already believe is true...that as much as they don't like the Detroit water deal, it's still a better bet than all of the other alternatives.

This will give them some political protection when they have to raise rates for the very necessary capital improvements that will surely come. Plus all this bluster publicly will allow them to go back to their voters and say, "We fought as hard as we could."

I won't bet my life on it, but I still think this deal can and will happen.

[27 Mile]

They're calling Detroit water "extortion" and "monopoly". Burbs are done paying through the roof for your problems. It sounds like Detroit water is used to tax the region for all of your city funding shortfalls. You guys think bankruptcy is rock bottom? Detroit will be in for a world of hurt when Gen and Oak counties stops getting their water from you.

[corktownyuppie]

Ok...we'll agree to disagree. I'd put the chances of Oakland County getting it's own water system at roughly under 10%.

But I've been wrong before.

[jt1]

They're calling Detroit water "extortion" and "monopoly". Burbs are done paying through the roof for your problems. It sounds like Detroit water is used to tax the region for all of your city funding shortfalls. You guys think bankruptcy is rock bottom? Detroit will be in for a world of hurt when Gen and Oak counties stops getting their water from you.

Well, except the city, by law and overseen by a monitor, can't turn a profit or fund general operations with DWSD revenue.

Of course the idiots in this region ignore that and ignore the fact that the prices are exceptionally reasonable.

But feel free to get all of the idiots out with pitchforks from the "extortion" and "monopoly" of DWSD. Go build a mutli billion dollar redundant system. It will be humorous when the reduction in bills is nominal.

This region is just full of people that will believe anything as long as 'Detroit' is the boogeyman.

[jt1]

Yuppie - You've nailed it with the political slant. Unfortunately very few will believe or see this as politicians in OC and MC are always noble and right in their endeavors.

They will not get called out for wasting millions on yet another study

[mwilbert]

Well, except the city, by law and overseen by a monitor, can't turn a profit or fund general operations with DWSD revenue.

Of course the idiots in this region ignore that and ignore the fact that the prices are exceptionally reasonable.

But feel free to get all of the idiots out with pitchforks from the "extortion" and "monopoly" of DWSD. Go build a mutli billion dollar redundant system. It will be humorous when the reduction in bills is nominal.

This region is just full of people that will believe anything as long as 'Detroit' is the boogeyman.

I think there are two different arguments. One says that Detroit is funding itself by overcharging suburban residents/businesses for water, which as you point out is nonsense. The other is that the DWSD is very inefficient [[as per the "80% overstaffed" study) and that the suburbs are paying for a lot of unneeded staff at the DWSD. The second idea could be true, although I don't know whether it actually is.

Presumably either privatizing the system or transferring operational control to an entity where the suburban counties had a majority voice would eliminate the ability of the city to pad the payroll, assuming that is what they are doing. So I guess we will find out what the actual level of overstaffing is in the not-too-distant future.

[coracle]

If Oakland does build their own system it will be at least one good result to come out of the Detroit bankruptcy. Not sure if it will increase my Water bill in Oakland but I'm sure it will increase Detroit Water bills for those that pay them. Detroit water is very good but being controlled by Detroit is not a comfortable feeling long term.

[jt1]

If Oakland do build their own system it will be at least one good result to come out of the Detroit bankruptcy. Not sure if it will increase my Water bill in Oakland but I'm sure it will increase Detroit Water bills for those that pay them. Detroit water is very good but being controlled by Detroit is not a comfortable feeling long term.

So paraphrased" I'm not sure if I'll pay more but I'm happy as long as Detroiters have to pay more." Awesome attitude. Sadly, it typifies the moronic attitude of this region.

And you wonder why people like myself have no sympathy that your pension will be cut. Sorry, but I don't care for my tax dollars going to people like yourself.

[jt1]

Coracle - If this study comes back like all the others, stating that it is too costly ot build another system, will you complain to OC officials for pissing away the money.

Do they get a pass?

[corktownyuppie]

If Oakland does build their own system it will be at least one good result to come out of the Detroit bankruptcy. Not sure if it will increase my Water bill in Oakland but I'm sure it will increase Detroit Water bills for those that pay them. Detroit water is very good but being controlled by Detroit is not a comfortable feeling long term.

I'm not sure I'm following the argument....

[[1) If you build a new water system, you will have to pay for the costs of doing so while also paying for the current water you're buying until it's completed. Then after it's complete, you're having to pay down the loans for the new facility. Your water bills will definitely go up. The question is whether they will go up less or more than through Detroit's proposed plan.

Detroit water is very good but being controlled by Detroit is not a comfortable feeling long term.

[[2) The plan Detroit is proposing puts the suburbs in control of the water. Is that part not widely understood or still in contention?

[jt1]

[[2) The plan Detroit is proposing puts the suburbs in control of the water. Is that part not widely understood or still in contention?[/COLOR]

Moving goal posts by suburban leaders. Sadly, the populace in SE Michigan apparently can't see it or choose not to. Criticizing their own leadership doesn't sit well when it is easier to either blame Detroit or simply wish ill on the

[27 Mile]

The other is that the DWSD is very inefficient [[as per the "80% overstaffed" study) and that the suburbs are paying for a lot of unneeded staff at the DWSD. The second idea could be true, although I don't know whether it actually is.

A Detroit city entity overstaffed with illiterate cronies and ghost employees? I'm shocked.

[corktownyuppie]

I don't know if it's quite 80%, but they definitely could trim a lot out of the organization. I have several clients who are employees there that admit they could do the job with 50% of their manpower.

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm not sure I'm following the argument....

[[1) If you build a new water system, you will have to pay for the costs of doing so while also paying for the current water you're buying until it's completed. Then after it's complete, you're having to pay down the loans for the new facility. Your water bills will definitely go up. The question is whether they will go up less or more than through Detroit's proposed plan.



[[2) The plan Detroit is proposing puts the suburbs in control of the water. Is that part not widely understood or still in contention?

I'm bored by fights over who owns the system. Why does that matter? All that matter is:
1) Are rates reasonable.
2) Is the water good.
3) Is the system well run.
Who cares who owns it. And nobody really cares. What they care about is what they can do with the money it spins off and/or the people they can hire or control.

Boring.

[animatedmartian]

I'm bored by fights over who owns the system. Why does that matter? All that matter is:
1) Are rates reasonable.
2) Is the water good.
3) Is the system well run.
Who cares who owns it. And nobody really cares. What they care about is what they can do with the money it spins off and/or the people they can hire or control.

Boring.

This region doesn't understand what a "common good" is.

[coracle]

I'm not sure I'm following the argument....

[[1) If you build a new water system, you will have to pay for the costs of doing so while also paying for the current water you're buying until it's completed. Then after it's complete, you're having to pay down the loans for the new facility. Your water bills will definitely go up. The question is whether they will go up less or more than through Detroit's proposed plan.

It wasn't meant to be an argument. I don't doubt it will increase my water bill. As regards capital costs we will start by not paying the extra $47 Million per year for 40 years, which would certainly increase my "bill" with no added value [[and then own nothing) and we'd still be locked in to a system that is 40 years older. I just believe there is nothing as good as being self sufficient. Looking at it from a positive angle Detroit might end up with an alternative water source.

[coracle]

Coracle - If this study comes back like all the others, stating that it is too costly ot build another system, will you complain to OC officials for pissing away the money.

Do they get a pass?

Of course they'll get a pass. But this time is different. We will be able to start by allocating $47 Million per year for 40 years which we won't have to pay to the City General Fund and the hundreds and hundreds of millions we'll be expected to spend to bring it up to spec and keep it there. I think this time there's a chance we'll get a positive result.

[compn]

dont trust orr with his numbers. he'll bait you with 35% increase and then sell off the dwsd for a better price. 'look, the suburbs are willing to pay +35% , NOW how much will you offer me for the water dept?'

OC is looking to build a water supply before someone swoops in, buys the DWSD and charges to the moon for water like what happens in any town with privatized water.

remember orr saying one of his three options is selling off the dwsd ?

[Hermod]

Assuming [[important word) that Oakland decides to have their own system [[possibly teaming up with Macomb County), here is how I would envision that it go down:

1. Investment costs to run an intake to lake St Clair.

2. Investments costs to build a treatment plant.

3. Negotiations with DWSD to takeover the legacy piping network in OC.

4. Probably paying for it by assuming an appropriate chunk of the DWSD debt.

[coracle]

I don't see the hang up in wanting the Suburbs to use it's taxes to purchase or lease DWSD when according to Orr's spokesperson 41 parties have already expressed interest in running it. [[reported in News or Free Press)

[Dumpling]

A Detroit city entity overstaffed with illiterate cronies and ghost employees? I'm shocked.

I have a couple of points to make here.

First, as regards the ghost employees. You may recall that Mayor Bing
appointed Ms. Sue McCormick, formerly of the Ann Arbor WWTP, as Director
of DWSD. There was to be a focus on reducing headcount at DWSD
through institution of efficient work practices and construction of new
more efficient facilities. Do you remember the articles about the
horseshoer? Yes? Who that person was, sitting around, doing nothing,
with no DWSD horses to shoe? Okay, good! As part of that thorough
audit, there was also a payroll audit, and anyone receiving a DWSD paycheck
for that pay period was asked to sign in for the auditors prior to receiving
their paycheck. In the period following the Kilpatrick corruption this was
not a bad idea. But if there were ghost employees, given that there was
great media awareness of a old DWSD job title that needed to be dropped from the books, there should have also been great media awareness of the ghost employees after the payroll audit...and there was...***crickets***.
So no more about ghost employees [[or post your specific knowledge of them
here now or let Fox 2 News know of them now, please).

[Cliffy]

Moving goal posts by suburban leaders. Sadly, the populace in SE Michigan apparently can't see it or choose not to. Criticizing their own leadership doesn't sit well when it is easier to either blame Detroit or simply wish ill on the

There was an article in the newspaper a couple weeks back that said over 50% of Detroiters are either behind or don't pay their water bill. Either shut them off or pay up. Detroit is sinking the whole region into the ground because taxes and bills are something that over 50% of Detroiters can't comprehend. If I don't pay my water bill, it goes on my taxes and then if I don't pay that, the county takes my house. The rules should be fair for everyone.

Seems like in Detroit you don't have to pay shit, don't have to follow traffic rules, don't have to have car insurance, don't have to cut your grass, nothing. How can I blame Oakland County for wanting their own water system when over 50% of the customers in Detroit are deadbeats. Imagine having a business and only 45% of your customers pay bills and the other ones don't pay shit. Well thats what DWSD has to deal with in Detroit. I don't want any part of that. Then we have the enablers on this board with the victim card and blaming the suburbs. How the hell can you blame the people that have been carrying the whole city on their back and listening to all the bullshit excuses and on top of that getting fingers pointed at them. Time for Detroit to catch up to the rest of the real world and follow the rules or face the consequences that they have in the suburbs. Like foreclosures, water shutoffs, tickets for not having car insurance, cutting your grass, etc...

[Dumpling]

As to "illiterate cronies". Michigan as a whole, noticeably African-Americans in Detroit [[with national rock bottom math scores) but also the rest of us here in Michigan, tends to not have high levels of post-secondary education and achievement. This is because many Michigan college graduates find better opportunities elsewhere. [[For example "English" from this forum).
Also many companies are not proactive about assisting employees to higher levels of post-secondary education, which is expensive, and takes employees away from their duties, and they may well, after gaining another degree, find work at another firm.
So, DWSD employees from Michigan may well have lower levels of educational
achievement than civil service employees in other parts of the world but
given that they have average Michigan intelligence and work ethic and given
that they receive specific training for the work that they do, they are
most often very capable of doing the work required. [[There used to be
tuition reimbursement based on grades received and course relevance to DWSD but I believe that perk was cut. If you think this tuition
reimbursement should be reinstated by all means post such an opinion here, it's far more polite and useful, if more expensive, than calling DWSD employees "illiterate".)
Now as regards "cronies". There was a faction within DWSD that supported
Kwame Kilpatrick initially, in spite of the media support for his candidacy
that was based on reining in "overpaid city workers". As more and more
of his misdeeds became known [[and city services became fewer and farther
between) the support from this faction totally melted away. If you want to throw around the word "crony" it is more helpful to be specific which group is supporting which politician and getting what favor as a direct result.

[Dumpling]

There is one final point I want to make, then I will step down from the soapbox.
Oakland County is very prosperous but did go through the recent recession as
well. The county executives had to study their budgets and make cuts and
sacrifices for several years in order to maintain their good credit rating.
Oakland County has had financial reality checks of various kinds over the past
few years that most posters here are well aware of. The executives have become more fiscally conservative - they have to be. Oakland County has seen outflow from and aging of its demographic base. For several years an increasing portion of the populace [[hopefully this is no longer the case) was very low-income or jobless.
Especially when considering making commitments that go on for more than
ten years, and that can balloon, and have many moving parts, and such
commitments are being pressed on the parties on short notice, on top of
the aforementioned need to be conservative, it is understandable if Oakland
County rejects the regional deal.