Why Have We Decided That A Guy Who Became A Billionaire Selling Us Cheap Pizza Is God

[Honky Tonk]

Pepperoni Be Praised!

http://metrotimes.com/news/politics-...itch-1.1660154

[animatedmartian]

This isn't really something unique to Detroit. Sports stadiums everywhere are getting more and more subsidized so that the wealthy owners have a new toy to show off. In the end, it's all in the name of entertainment and ad revenue.

[TTime]

That is true but subsidizing while bankrupt certainly is unique to Detroit.

[poobert]

Because the leadership around here fawns over every snake-oil peddler who rolls into town. Look at how the leadership of Allen Park mortgaged their future over some half-baked movie studio. We think the "next big thing" is going to save us, as opposed to doing normal shit properly.

Although I think Jack Lessenberry is mostly a jerk:
What is Detroit getting for its money? Maybe, I'm told, a few hundred fairly low-paying new jobs at the new hockey arena. Maybe. Maybe some tax revenue from a new sports bar.

I know that must be easy to say from a leafy street in Oakland County, but there are thousands of people in this city who really need a "fairly low-paying job" just to survive. There are a lot of good folks who here would love a crack at one of those "fairly low-paying jobs." A few hundred is nothing to scoff at, as Lessenberry predictably does. Sorry, we can't all be jerk writers.

[Bham1982]

I don't get how this arena would generate even one additional job.

Obviously all the Red Wings-related employment will just be transferred over from JLA. Any secondary employment [[nearby bars and the like) will be a net wash. It's not like Joe Sixpack fan from Plymouth will only have one beer while visiting JLA, but two when visiting PizzaPizza Arena.

[nain rouge]

Recently, when I was walking around Brush Park, it struck me how ineffectual stadiums are at helping out the surrounding area. Here I was, a few blocks from the vaunted Comerica Park, and a stray dog was running through the tall grass of a completely empty city block. Where's the redevelopment? You can throw out all the stats you want, but I'm convinced that all stadiums help are a handful of bars [[most of which would've made it anyway) and parking lots.

Just look at Michigan Avenue. There's been more economic activity there SINCE the Tigers left than before. The proof is on the ground!

Yes, yes, I know - a stadium should at least pay a good sum of taxes in one way or another, but with all the corruption in the modern world, you know that usually doesn't amount to a hill of beans for the average person. Plus, we give the stadiums so much money and infrastructure in the first place, who knows how long it takes the investment to get out of the red?

Probably, I'm guessing, around the time the sports team starts begging for a new stadium. It's like a lose-lose.

I'm convinced the new hockey arena will help lower Cass Corridor about as much as the combination of Comerica Park and Ford Field helped Brush Park.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I don't get how this arena would generate even one additional job.

Obviously all the Red Wings-related employment will just be transferred over from JLA. Any secondary employment [[nearby bars and the like) will be a net wash. It's not like Joe Sixpack fan from Plymouth will only have one beer while visiting JLA, but two when visiting PizzaPizza Arena.

I assume that because the new arena will be more of a "destination" and less isolated than Joe Louis Arena is, its anticipated that there would be more spin off activity.

[bailey]

I assume that because the new arena will be more of a "destination" and less isolated than Joe Louis Arena is, its anticipated that there would be more spin off activity.

That is the theory. And I think it's credible. What I don't find to be at all smart is letting Illitch do it when he's demonstrated a track record of ....lets say, less that stellar follow through on the whole "spin off" side of things.

I mean, I'd be more confident if Gilbert were runnign this particular show. Say what you want, when he buys something, there are shovels in the ground the next day.

[Bham1982]

I assume that because the new arena will be more of a "destination" and less isolated than Joe Louis Arena is, its anticipated that there would be more spin off activity.

I think that's the argument, but, to me, it doesn't make intutitive sense. The Wings already play in one of the highest capacity arenas, and right downtown and right on the People Mover. It doesn't make sense that someone will eat more hot dogs, buy more t-shirts, or get more drunk because they moved the arena a few blocks north.

[poobert]

I don't get how this arena would generate even one additional job.

Construction and demolition

Oh but this one is going to be a destination, unlike the other ones. Temple Bar is going to be the new area sports bar, what with all the spin-offing, crossdressers and hockey fans mingling in blissful harmony.

[Bham1982]

Just look at Michigan Avenue. There's been more economic activity there SINCE the Tigers left than before. The proof is on the ground!

I'm not surprised and that's because arenas and convention centers generally harm surrounding activity and streetlife. Notice in most countries they put the stadia as far away from downtown as possible, because they know it will kill activity all the time it isn't being used.

Comerica and Ford Field areas are thriving when there's an event. At any other time, that's the quietest corner downtown. It will be the same thing with a new hockey arena. The Hooters will be packed before and after the game, and the rest of the year a sea of empty parking lots.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Maybe we'll all be surprised and the housing and retail will be built!

I suppose that DESPITE Ill-Itch being involved, the increasing demand for housing might mean some will be developed in the arena area.

[Bham1982]

Maybe we'll all be surprised and the housing and retail will be built!

I suppose that DESPITE Ill-Itch being involved, the increasing demand for housing might mean some will be developed in the arena area.

Just like all the housing being built around Comerica, Ford Field, and JLA? Because nothing says home like Barb from Northville passed out in a pool of vomit in the building lobby.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Just like all the housing being built around Comerica, Ford Field, and JLA? Because nothing says home like Barb from Northville passed out in a pool of vomit in the building lobby.

More like the new Statler project and the renovated Park apartments at Grand Circus. The uptick in housing demand MIGHT be enough to launch something.

[iheartthed]

This is amazing. I don't think we've all been this close to agreeing on anything in the history of this site.

[rex]

slightly off topic I wonder whats going to happen to the surrounding neighborhood in the next decade? Still hood over, its where people with nowhere else to go end up. Will they be pushed north toward Peterboro or up Grand River towards the boulevard? I suppose they will stay centered around social services and shelters. Are those going to remain in the South Cass neighborhood?

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't get how this arena would generate even one additional job.

Obviously all the Red Wings-related employment will just be transferred over from JLA. Any secondary employment [[nearby bars and the like) will be a net wash. It's not like Joe Sixpack fan from Plymouth will only have one beer while visiting JLA, but two when visiting PizzaPizza Arena.

This all depends upon what will happen to the old arena site. I would love to see an expansion of the exhibition hall with watering holes/ice cream parlors on the first level to meet the needs of conventioneers or users of the Riverwalk. This is what has been done very successfully at Navy Pier. http://www.navypier.com/events/event...t_gallery.html

I doubt an expansion is feasible. Detroit is not Orlando, Chicago, Vegas, or Anaheim. It may not be worth the expense. Perhaps something else?

[animatedmartian]

I'm not surprised and that's because arenas and convention centers generally harm surrounding activity and streetlife. Notice in most countries they put the stadia as far away from downtown as possible, because they know it will kill activity all the time it isn't being used.

That's not entirely true.

For 1) the concept of 'downtown' varies in many other countries where the historical center of the city is usually already built up and in most cases contains much historical architecture. It's an American habit to demolish anything and everything to build something new.

2) Newer built Sstadiums in other countries tend to be surrounded by parkland and recreational facilities yet still within reach of the majority of the population.

3) Although the stadiums may not be near a 'downtown' area, most cities outside of the US don't have the typical suburban environment with miles of tract homes. Cities tend to have dense urban density miles beyond the historical center. So really, that whole statement is an apples to oranges comparison.

[Hermod]

Financial merit and demerits of a spots facility are all smoke and mirrors. You give what you have to to have a major league baseball, football, hockey, or basketball team. The owner wants to get the most out of you and you have to gauge how credible his threat to move is if you don't give it to him. Essentially, what is it worth to you as a city government to have major league in your city?

[emu steve]

I assume that because the new arena will be more of a "destination" and less isolated than Joe Louis Arena is, its anticipated that there would be more spin off activity.

Seems every 3 months or so [[maybe more [often] or less) but we have these debates.

Would there be new development at the Statler site if no Comerica Park or Ford Field or Greektown or new arena coming?

I can't separate employment from entertainment.

If none of that entertainment stayed in the downtown area [[Tigers, Lions, Wings) would the employment have moved to the CBD?????

If the Tigers moved to Livonia, would Quicken Loans have come to downtown????

And because of employment and entertainment we have housing demand. People like to be near work and play.

[emu steve]

Or let me try this way:

It has been a number of decades since I played Monopoly, but weren't there a lot of DIFFERENT type of pieces?

A piece might be the Statler apartment, new arena, Comerica, Ford Field, many renovated buildings [[e.g. Buffalo Wild Wings), Greektown Hotel and Casino, M-1 rail, Opera House, etc. etc.

Each is a PIECE of the puzzle. No one piece is the puzzle.

And the puzzle is: "Work, live or play downtown". Some folks will do one, some will do two, some will do all three [[and, of course, some will do NONE - they may as well live in Lapeer.).

[Bham1982]

Would there be new development at the Statler site if no Comerica Park or Ford Field or Greektown or new arena coming?

People really think this?

No one is renting on Grand Circus Park because of Ford Field or Comerica Park. It's because they like cities and old buildings. If anything, the arenas may be a disincentive [[they sure would be to me). Guaranteed parking chaos and drunken brawls, with an occasional Justin Bieber or Yanni concert to really class things up.

I mean, why is Midtown improving much faster than downtown? If sports arenas were so essential, shouldn't the three big arenas downtown tip the scales?

[Wesley Mouch]

I don't get how this arena would generate even one additional job.

Obviously all the Red Wings-related employment will just be transferred over from JLA. Any secondary employment [[nearby bars and the like) will be a net wash. It's not like Joe Sixpack fan from Plymouth will only have one beer while visiting JLA, but two when visiting PizzaPizza Arena.

Sometimes you have to improve to keep what you have. Those who don't constantly improve often marginalize themselves.

I also have doubts that this would generate jobs. Increased jobs isn't what I think this project will bring.

What it brings us will be the fantastic status quo. A downtown that will continue to have 100-150 large events a year [[hockey, concerts, misc.). Those events will continue to support downtown activity, dining, parking, related entertainment, corporate events, conventions, etc.

We should remember that JLA was built by CAY to replace the woefully inadequate Cobo Arena. He built it when he didn't have the Ilitches or the Red Wings. He took a big risk, and built a new arena that frankly wasn't one of the best. By the late 80s, it was out of date. No significant concourses for example. Compare this with the Palace with much more concourse space, large lobbies and pre-function areas, restaurants, multiple suite levels. If you really want to see the difference between JLA and the Palace, talk to the production staff. JLA is significantly challenged on loading areas, dressing room space, and technical support.

JLA remained in use for its entire bonding period. It served Detroit well. If not for the Palace, Detroit would have stayed at the center of entertainment. Detroit is still fighting Auburn Hills for major concerts -- and while there are successes the big stuff still heads north.

If Detroit doesn't modernize or replace JLA -- it will lose business to the often-modernized and much more capable Palace.

Sometimes you upgrade just to stay even.

[jt1]

No one is renting on Grand Circus Park because of Ford Field or Comerica Park. It's because they like cities and old buildings. If anything, the arenas may be a disincentive [[they sure would be to me).

How many people do you know that actually live downtown? Some people certainly move downtown because they appreciate the architecture, etc. A lot of people I know that have moved or lived downtown did so because they like a place that is a little more lively. The stadia certainly add to that feeling.

I'm not saying that the stadia are good or bad but your claim above does not mesh with the people that I know that have chosen to live downtown

[Hypestyles]

There should have been a community benefits agreement, formalized to include a cut of net revenue, prioritize consideration for current Detroit residents for the temp/construction contracts/jobs, and to hire at least a baseline percentage of current Detroit residents for permanent jobs.