Detroit City Airport

[Honky Tonk]

Wow it is nothing like the Willow Run I remember as a grad student around 1990. I had to go out there for an Satellite/Aerial Photography Interpretation class. We must have had it in a different section. It looked like an old industrial building, but it had nothing like this. I must have been in a part converted to hangers. I can imagine I had only seen a tiny piece of the complex; that place was massive.

Did you get a chance to go up in the U of M DC-3? [[VERY cool photo of the Willow Run Terminal, by the way)

[EastsideAl]

Does anyone else remember the huge gas storage tank that used to sit between the two runways? That may have been one of the reasons the airlines fled to Wayne.

You mean this one

[[DTE aerial photo, 1961)

[SDCC]

Nice article on CAY Airport
http://www.freep.com/article/2014041...drones-Detroit

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I think they should try to lengthen the runways again [[although going more east/west to avoid the cemeteries). If they can't do that, it will always be a drain on the neighborhood and city and it should be rezoned light industrial, abandoning the idea of an airport there. If they can create larger runways, it would be a great place for a few small, discount airlines to operate. I would let a private company manage and promote the facility for a nominal fee as long as the locate a fixed number of full time jobs there and maintain it.

[ABetterDetroit]

Can't keep pouring money down a hole. Something needs to change.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ort/100400706/

[Honky Tonk]

Can't keep pouring money down a hole. Something needs to change.

http://www.detroitnews.com/news/detroit/

I'm getting "Physician Charged With Mutilating Girl's Genitalia". If that's going on @ City Airport, then I agree it should stop immediately.

[Shai_Hulud]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ort/100400706/

[ABetterDetroit]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ort/100400706/

Thanks Shai for correcting the error.

[Bigdd]

My dad used to fly out of Det City Airport in the 60' s and 70's. For years it was so busy that they landed 3 planes abreast. The guy in the middle got the pavement,.. the planes to the side got the grass.

I heard it was the busiest airport in the country or the world for a while.

[Zacha341]

Yeah, that just seems like a dumb idea [[above ground gas tank like that!)!

Does anyone else remember the huge gas storage tank that used to sit between the two runways? That may have been one of the reasons the airlines fled to Wayne.

[313WX]

I hope the city thinks their decision over very carefully.

If the city does ever come back [[and/or the metro area suddenly sees a population boom), they're going to regret not having City Airport as another option for commercial flights, especially given how much of an pain in the ass it is getting to Metro Airport for anyone that's not in the Western or Downriver suburbs. Bear in mind, when the Super Bowl was in town, the NFL and sports commentator flew in through City Airport [[little stuff like that can be a deal breaker).

Even comparably tiny Cleveland still has commercial flights in/out of Burke, because of its convenience to downtown versus Hopkins.

[dtowncitylover]

I hope the city thinks their decision over very carefully.

If the city does ever come back [[and/or the metro area suddenly sees a population boom), they're going to regret not having City Airport as another option for commercial flights, especially given how much of an pain in the ass it is getting to Metro Airport for anyone that's not in the Western or Downriver suburbs. Bear in mind, when the Super Bowl was in town, the NFL and sports commentator flew in through City Airport [[little stuff like that can be a deal breaker).

Even comparably tiny Cleveland still has commercial flights in/out of Burke, because of its convenience to downtown versus Hopkins.

But then this would require the age-old problem of extending the runway, which I thought was near impossible to do?

As well, while the distance from Metro airport is farther than some like, this all would've been solved with either RTA's new bus routes/commuter rail or it would be neat if the "next" [[pipe dream probably) RefleX route would be between downtown and the airport via Michigan and Merriman.

[jiminnm]

Yeah, that just seems like a dumb idea [[above ground gas tank like that!)!

It was likely there before the airport, built in the teens or early 1920s. I think the airport was built in the late 20s - early 30s. The tank was used for storing manufactured gas, made on site, before natural gas became widely available. The tank was demo'd in the late 1950s.

[Hermod]

For a while, commercial flights to or from Detroit could have City Airport, Wayne-Major [[DTW), or Willow Run as their origin or destination. You really had to watch the schedules and be very explicit with the travel agent to avoid heading for the wrong airport and missing your flight.

[fastcarsandfreedom]

The only viable option is a renovation/restoration of the runways and significant investment in infrastructure to develop DET as a first tier private/corporate/general aviation airport--maybe with an added aviation/transportation R&D/educational component. Extending the runway[[s) is both cost prohibitive and logistically difficult. This would put it on a similar to footing to BKL in Cleveland.

The notion that DET has any future as a commercial airport is a fantasy. There is simply no compelling reason for anyone to avoid DTW -- it's a clean, efficient airport that is a major hub for one of the largest airlines in the world and is easily accessed from the entirety of the metro area. FNT and YQG already pick-up any so-called leakage that avoids DTW [[primarily for cost/fare reasons). The City of Detroit got to it's fiscal nadir in part because of Sacred Cows like this--with DET losing money consistently and needing significant investment I see no reason for the City of Detroit to be in the aviation business--we have the County for that.

[rbdetsport]

I do not agree with selling City Airport. There is plenty of empty land in the City for large swaths of land to be rezoned to light industry. The I-94 Industrial Park, for example, is not even filled yet, so why are we talking about selling City Airport property. For now, find a small operator or just completely shut it down. Later when there is new demand, sell the airport to Wayne County Airport Authority, and team with Delta for regional flights while Metro continues to become more international. I agree with the sentiment that in the future, this airport, or this land will be much more valuable.

[Jason]

It seems like the airport provides some worthwhile services. The cost of that is the subsidy from the city.

If investment could make the airport more successful, then maybe it wouldn't need as much subsidy and it would be a better value. Maybe getting bigger is what makes it successful, maybe downsizing and focusing on a niche is what makes it successful.

The other thing to consider is that it's an airport located in the middle of a city. Is the noise pollution at odds with what the city is trying to become?

Also, the future of air travel is not particularly bright. Is this something you want to invest in? You can spend the money to bring it up to par with all of the other small airports across the country that have been getting closed left and right.

Finally, I was always under the impression that the airport was costing a lot of money, and that the money would be better spent on other transportation projects. But it's actually a really small amount of the budget and doesn't matter much either way. Every little bit helps, but the decision is probably more political than anything. But $150 million for expanding the runway IS a lot of money and I think everyone here can think of better ways of spending it than on expanding the runway. That's roughly the cost for the m1 rail project.

[bust]

I've been flying often into and out of Detroit for the past 30 years and the closer Delta has gotten to a monopoly on passenger seats the more expensive the flights have become. American is now the only other airline that offers direct flights from New York, and only on small planes operated by American Eagle. Those sell out fast. The only other option is to fly out of Newark, but I do everything I can to avoid the hellish trip to that hellish airport. That means when I come home to visit my family any time near a holiday I have to either pay ridiculous fares or fly at 6am, and if I'm late making plans maybe both. It often costs more to fly 500 miles from New York to Detroit than it does from New York to Europe. Sometimes it's the same price to fly nearly 10 times as far to Brazil.

https://www.kayak.com/flights/NYC-DTW/2017-11-22/2017-11-26?fs=takeoff=1131,2100|0951,2057;stops=0;airports =-EWR

I visit less as a result. And apparently I'm not alone. [[The expert cited in the article says the chicken, I say the egg.)

A great reason to renovate City Airport would be to bring much needed competition from other airlines and drive down the ridiculous airfares. Anyone who thinks the prices in Detroit are normal hasn't compared.

Lack of fliers tied to higher Metro Airport airfares
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/tra...etro/72235690/

[ABetterDetroit]

I've been flying often into and out of Detroit for the past 30 years and the closer Delta has gotten to a monopoly on passenger seats the more expensive the flights have become. American is now the only other airline that offers direct flights from New York, and only on small planes operated by American Eagle. Those sell out fast. The only other option is to fly out of Newark, but I do everything I can to avoid the hellish trip to that hellish airport. That means when I come home to visit my family any time near a holiday I have to either pay ridiculous fares or fly at 6am, and if I'm late making plans maybe both. It often costs more to fly 500 miles from New York to Detroit than it does from New York to Europe. Sometimes it's the same price to fly nearly 10 times as far to Brazil.

https://www.kayak.com/flights/NYC-DTW/2017-11-22/2017-11-26?fs=takeoff=1131,2100|0951,2057;stops=0;airports =-EWR

I visit less as a result. And apparently I'm not alone. [[The expert cited in the article says the chicken, I say the egg.)

A great reason to renovate City Airport would be to bring much needed competition from other airlines and drive down the ridiculous airfares. Anyone who thinks the prices in Detroit are normal hasn't compared.

Lack of fliers tied to higher Metro Airport airfares
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/tra...etro/72235690/

Delta's strangle hold on DTW gates and flights is frustrating and expensive to all air travelers in and out of Detroit. Wayne County Airport Authority has been zero help on that front.

Besides those facts, counting on The City of Detroit to run AND construct a competitive airport out of DET doesn't seem remotely realistic. The last time I was in the airport it was an absolute dump in terrible condition virtually everywhere.

Where Detroit would get the money to make the necessary capital improvements would be a major issue. Not as much as how the city would get the money, though that would be fascinating in itself, but more so on how it would be sold to the residents that this complete restoration of the airport was worthy of stripping all the badly needed funds from other far more pressing needs so they could be diverted to this project. I would believe it would be a public relations nightmare of epic proportions. 150 million seems like a very old figure and can't possibly include any runway extension. That would be far higher.

66 full time city employees is insane for 8 take offs and landings a day primarily for aviation enthusiasts. I thought that kind of foolishness ended at the bankruptcy. But in all fairness, DET was shopped heavily for free and there were no takers. All they had to do was run it as an airport and any of the creditors could have had it. Next WCAA was offered and said no thanks. That tells us something. If they thought they could break even with it, they would have jumped at it and they're in the airport business around here.

[brizee]

OPEN 6 MILE UP!

I honestly don't want to see heavy manufacturing.

I spent the first 19 years of my life on a street between Van Dyke & Eldon. People are not supposed to fucking live next door to factories and junk yards.

Seriously though whatever they do, open the east/west roads up.

[Meddle]

Wasn't there talk at one point about converting Selfridge to commercial, at least in part? It's roughly the same distance as Metro.

As far as 'in town', we see a lot of discussion of demolition and razing junk houses --- is there an area that's been cleared enough to do something?

[313WX]

But then this would require the age-old problem of extending the runway, which I thought was near impossible to do?

As well, while the distance from Metro airport is farther than some like, this all would've been solved with either RTA's new bus routes/commuter rail or it would be neat if the "next" [[pipe dream probably) RefleX route would be between downtown and the airport via Michigan and Merriman.

As far as the bolded, that may have been the case about 20 years ago. But now, at least 80% of that land [[with the exception of the Cemetaries) is vacant, especially to the north and west of DET. So logistically speaking, I don't see why expanding the runway would still be an issue.

To your second point, as we can see, that's not happening any time in the foreseeable future. Hell, I bet we get BRT / LRT on Gratiot before some fantasy commuter rail to Metro.

Finally, who said the city had to continue to own / operate City Airport? Spinning it off to an Authority [[similar to the lighting department) is also an option.

[IrishSpartan]

It was likely there before the airport, built in the teens or early 1920s. I think the airport was built in the late 20s - early 30s. The tank was used for storing manufactured gas, made on site, before natural gas became widely available. The tank was demo'd in the late 1950s.

The tank was there until about 1963-64. City Airport opened in 1927.

[Jason]

As far as the bolded, that may have been the case about 20 years ago. But now, at least 80% of that land [[with the exception of the Cemetaries) is vacant, especially to the north and west of DET. So logistically speaking, I don't see why expanding the runway would still be an issue.

To your second point, as we can see, that's not happening any time in the foreseeable future. Hell, I bet we get BRT / LRT on Gratiot before some fantasy commuter rail to Metro.

Finally, who said the city had to continue to own / operate City Airport? Spinning it off to an Authority [[similar to the lighting department) is also an option.

Look on the map though. If you could build on the cemeteries, and bury Gratiot underground, then you could extend the long runway.

If you extended the short runway by demolishing a dozen or so houses and a few industrial buildings, and burying Van Dyke and a rail line, then you could extend the short runway, but even after being extended it would only be about as long as the current longer one.

Or if you demolished everything east of Van Dyke [[not much there really) you still wouldn't be able to fit anything longer than the current long one.

They can build on top of the cemeteries but it would be expensive and they'd be buried in lawsuits for years.

:/

[313WX]

Look on the map though. If you could build on the cemeteries, and bury Gratiot underground, then you could extend the long runway.

If you extended the short runway by demolishing a dozen or so houses and a few industrial buildings, and burying Van Dyke and a rail line, then you could extend the short runway, but even after being extended it would only be about as long as the current longer one.

Or if you demolished everything east of Van Dyke [[not much there really) you still wouldn't be able to fit anything longer than the current long one.

They can build on top of the cemeteries but it would be expensive and they'd be buried in lawsuits for years.

:/

The current long runway is about 5,000 ft.

We may be able to stretch 1 or 2 additional runways diagonally a little over 6,000 ft without crossing Van Dyke or affecting the Chrysler Plant, which is roughly the same length as Midway's largest runways.

I think that was the original plan back in the 90s, but the main impediment was that the neighborhood was still modestly populated.