Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[ticktock]

I'm not so sure about that. First, if one is considering investing money in something, one doesn't usually announce it. It drives prices of anything up. Second, even if he has no interest in soccer, he might be interested if it seemed like a sound investment or way to draw people into downtown, boosting revenue and value of his other properties and businesses. I am not saying he is in any way interested. Just that a public denial is potentially not sincere.

Secondly, I doubt the Ilitches would sell the Tigers but not the Wings. I would think that they would either be all in or all out in terms of sports. But who knows. Generational changes and large checks can be big drivers of change.

At this moment, an MLS team is not a sound investment because their TV deal is basically worthless. Unless Gilbert receives a subsidy or the city builds him a new stadium, it would be hard to justify it. DC United is one of the top brands in MLS and it took them years to finally get a stadium approved. Using tax money to build a fourth stadium in the city would not sit well with the citizens of Detroit. Just look at all the heat Ilitch got for using state tax money [[thanks to Snyder) towards the new arena.

The rumor I've heard is that Chris Ilitch is not a big baseball fan and that he would rather keep the hockey team. The NHL has a salary cap and with the new arena it's gonna be a lot easier to keep the team profitable, compared to the Tigers who have a $200 million payroll and is much harder to build a consistent baseball team. Maybe it won't happen, but that's the rumor and Gilbert seems to be very interested in the Tigers if the team becomes available.

[ABetterDetroit]

Don't mean to put a damper on this idea, but Detroit is way down on the list of MLS expansion. It would take a miracle to add a team in the next 5-10 years. Minnesota, Atlanta, LA and Miami are getting a team for sure. Even Sacramento and San Antonio are ahead of us when it comes to having actual ownership and stadium plan. St. Louis after losing the Rams are also in the mix by trying to use part of the tax money for the proposed NFL stadium to go towards a new soccer stadium.

St. Louis at one time being considered the hub of US soccer

https://lafc.com/stadium/

http://www.newstpaulstadium.com/

http://www.builtforsacramento.com/

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e68064887.html

http://www.sacurrent.com/Blogs/archi...on-to-28-teams

If it's gonna happen, first we would need a USL team [[which is division 3) and prove that we can support a pro soccer team. Detroit City FC has some good support, but they're basically an amateur team playing in the NPSL Great Lakes Conference against teams from Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo. Most of these teams play in high school football stadiums. Moving to another high school stadium in Hamtramck won't help their cause. Our only hope is to build an expandable 5,000 seat stadium for a USL team with ownership that has deep pockets and is truly committed to landing an MLS team down the road. DCFC ownership have already stated that they are not interest in that. They basically wanna continue as a semi-pro community team like FC United of Manchester, a club which was started by former Man United fans who were opposed to American ownership taking over their club.

You know a lot more about this than me so I would like to ask a question. You named 7 cities that are already on the short list yet Don Garber said they will expand to 28 still leaving one open even if all the 7 land where they should. The question is since Detroit was also mentioned as needing to be looked at by the expansion committee is it possible that an individual or group that has a half billion dollars burning a hole in their pocket that is ready to jump in capable of courting the league on its own or does the minor league requirements have to come first? I am not singling out any one individual because I can count several off the top of my head that could afford it locally if they had the will.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

At this moment, an MLS team is not a sound investment because their TV deal is basically worthless.

Well, not in the league of the Big 4 rights, they are far from worthless. The national broadcast rights [[not counting Canadian rights or international rights) are $720M over 8 years. This does not include local broadcast TV or any radio revenue, which very greatly by market [[Hispanic-heavy markets have much higher local soccer ratings, not surprisingly). They also have league-wide sponsorships in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

With the unique revenue and salary structure of MLS, they are actually pretty strong financially. I would argue that while less lucrative than the other US major leagues are, MLS club ownership is also less risky. The MLS Wikipedia page outlines the strong and growing revenue, and the fact that most of the clubs are actually turning an annual profit. Also: the rate of growth of soccer money is exceeding the rate of growth in other sports. MLS investment might not be a goldmine, but it hardly seems like any kind of foolhardy financial adventure. What it does take is an owner who realizes that it is a long-term investment.

TV Deal Article: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/t...Univision.html

Wikipedia MLS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_...#United_States

[emu steve]

My only overarching comment is that the league should be careful NOT to overload the new franchisees with too much cost [[franchise fee) that they become unprofitable.

Best way for an American company to be financially unsuccessful is to have too much debt to service caused at startup or when they were acquired. Take a good company and pay too much for it with debt and then it becomes a troubled company. Read that everyday in the business sections.

Soccer might have a good future in the U.S., BUT if the revenue/expenditure P&L [[profit and loss) isn't good then a good thing can become a bad thing.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

For the league's sake, there is also the danger that they expand so quickly, locating in places that can't support a team, or picking owners too quickly. Plus, of course, there is the danger of diluting the talent. But I think they want the half dozen or more new teams so that when they start negotiating for media rights again in 7 years they can get a deal well into 10 figures.

[ticktock]

You know a lot more about this than me so I would like to ask a question. You named 7 cities that are already on the short list yet Don Garber said they will expand to 28 still leaving one open even if all the 7 land where they should. The question is since Detroit was also mentioned as needing to be looked at by the expansion committee is it possible that an individual or group that has a half billion dollars burning a hole in their pocket that is ready to jump in capable of courting the league on its own or does the minor league requirements have to come first? I am not singling out any one individual because I can count several off the top of my head that could afford it locally if they had the will.

I think the ultimate goal is to have 30 teams and Detroit is a city where MLS wants a team in. We are a top 10 TV market and do a great job supporting our sports teams. The biggest issue has always been the stadium. Back in the early MLS era, the only options were playing at the aging Silverdome or run-down Tiger Stadium. Ford Field being an indoor stadium didn't help the cause. If we had an open air NFL stadium, there's a good chance we would've gotten a team from the get-go.

No, there's no minor leagues requirement what so ever. If someone like Ilitch or Gilbert wants to finance a stadium and own a team, Detroit would get preferential treatment over Sacramento and San Antonio. A perfect scenario would be like it was mentioned, Gilbert getting a hold of the fail jail site and building a soccer specific stadium there. He could even hold a season-ticket drive to see if there's enough interest. Orlando did that and it has worked great for them. They are currently playing at the Citrus Bowl[[averaging 40,000 a game) while their new stadium is being built.

[ticktock]

You can build dual purpose stadiums. It is done all the time. WSU's current stadium is not ideal for college football. By partnering there is less risk for both parties. D.C., Seattle and Boston are all shared facilities with the NFL. Orlando plays in the Citrus Bowl.

Seattle is a unique case because they are crazy about the Sounders and their attendance is impressive for playing in an NFL stadium. DC is building a new stadium and Boston is trying to do the same: http://www.espnfc.us/club/new-englan...deal-in-boston

Playing in a shared stadium [[which would probably have fieldturf) is not ideal and MLS prefers soccer specific stadiums with natural grass.

Well, not in the league of the Big 4 rights, they are far from worthless. The national broadcast rights [[not counting Canadian rights or international rights) are $720M over 8 years. This does not include local broadcast TV or any radio revenue, which very greatly by market [[Hispanic-heavy markets have much higher local soccer ratings, not surprisingly). They also have league-wide sponsorships in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

With the unique revenue and salary structure of MLS, they are actually pretty strong financially. I would argue that while less lucrative than the other US major leagues are, MLS club ownership is also less risky. The MLS Wikipedia page outlines the strong and growing revenue, and the fact that most of the clubs are actually turning an annual profit. Also: the rate of growth of soccer money is exceeding the rate of growth in other sports. MLS investment might not be a goldmine, but it hardly seems like any kind of foolhardy financial adventure. What it does take is an owner who realizes that it is a long-term investment.

TV Deal Article: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/t...Univision.html

Wikipedia MLS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_...#United_States

Great points. Basically, we just need an owner who's able to finance a soccer stadium and has a long-term plan.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The fail jail site option does seem perfect in so many ways, except that the decision by the county on what to do with the jail will likely come shortly, in the next few months. MLS will be several years away from deciding if Detroit would be an expansion city. A would be franchisee [[come on, Dan, you know you want to) would have to jump up aggressively and soon to negotiate with the county over the jail site. Since they rejected his offer earlier of $50M, and there is no franchise currently awarded, I think the odds are low that he would shell out much more than that amount right now. But stranger things have happened. I think maybe we should give him Detroit River naming rights. "Quicken Loans River" or "Rocket River" maybe?

[ABetterDetroit]

Seattle is a unique case because they are crazy about the Sounders and their attendance is impressive for playing in an NFL stadium. DC is building a new stadium and Boston is trying to do the same: http://www.espnfc.us/club/new-englan...deal-in-boston

Playing in a shared stadium [[which would probably have fieldturf) is not ideal and MLS prefers soccer specific stadiums with natural grass.



Great points. Basically, we just need an owner who's able to finance a soccer stadium and has a long-term plan.

So the big question is would MLS publicly state that the expansion committee is going to examine Detroit without a owner or ownership group expressing intrest that has the resources to eventually pull it off? Just a guess but I would figure that somebody has been in contact with them that is capable, otherwise why bother with the discussion it would be pointless. MLS is way past the point where the league is going to kick in cash to place franchises just based on where they think it would be a good fit.

[mtburb]

We are a top 10 TV market

...did you get that from a 15-year-old-source? The latest rankings put us at 13th largest.

[Junjie]

...did you get that from a 15-year-old-source? The latest rankings put us at 13th largest.

I think the point stands. If they are going to 28 teams, it's not as though Detroit is some long shot way down the list of suitable markets.

[dtowncitylover]

...did you get that from a 15-year-old-source? The latest rankings put us at 13th largest.

Numbers don't include Windsor-Chatham-Kent which top another 400,000 residents that could also support a Detroit based team, like they do the Tigers or Red Wings.

[ABetterDetroit]

ABettererDetroit, thanks for the post. I would LOVE for Detroit to get a team. There are some real challenges, but I think it's possible. Demographically, I think Detroit would support a team. The challenge is that we would need an owner* with deep pockets to fund a stadium and sustain early year operational losses. Complicating the stadium equation is the rapidly shrinking list of soccer-stadium size plots around downtown or midtown to build on. A few years ago, there were many candidates. Now, there are many fewer and the prices are much higher. Realistically, a downtown or near downtown seems imperative to me. Detroit's ethnically mixed and young urban professional population are exactly the people who would go to games.

My dream scenario is that Gilbert would plunk down the money for fail jail [[I bet it would cost him $100M upfront, plus a few staggered payments of $10-20M for the other area buildings like Frank Murphy HoJ as they were emptied out). He would then build a soccer specific stadium, which could also house concerts and events. And he could then build some hotel, retail, restaurants, etc on the fringes, and channel as many of those patrons as he wants to his casino. "Arsenal Detroit at Jack Casino Stadium". Not predicting that will happen, just dreaming.

*MLS has a different ownership structure than the other major sports leagues, and the "owners" really are licensed MLS franchise operators, not literally the owner in the same sense that they are in other sports. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_...ccer#Ownership

I like your dream Mike. For a location for soccer specific stadium the fail jail site would be close to perfect although it would have to be shoehorned in some. I have another possible location -- 1200 sixth street. It is one parcel and larger so future expansion could be accommodated. The Executive Plaza Building would have to come down, however. Getting MDOT to move the greyhound terminal shouldn't be extremely difficult. Bonuses would be pro sports returning to Cork Town and the Howard street bridge would become a nice pedestrian bridge leading into downtown. Any other location ideas?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I like your dream Mike. For a location for soccer specific stadium the fail jail site would be close to perfect although it would have to be shoehorned in some. I have another possible location -- 1200 sixth street. It is one parcel and larger so future expansion could be accommodated. The Executive Plaza Building would have to come down, however. Getting MDOT to move the greyhound terminal shouldn't be extremely difficult. Bonuses would be pro sports returning to Cork Town and the Howard street bridge would become a nice pedestrian bridge leading into downtown. Any other location ideas?

Using Google Earth as a guide, a soccer stadium the size of Kansas City's would just barely fit at the Fail Jail site itself, but rather easily if it took over the space just south housing the youth detention center and Carson school [[I think Gilbert's turned down bid included taking over those buildings, too, after operations relocated).

I originally hoped that the old Tiger Stadium site would house an MLS stadium, but since productive use is being made of it now, that is no longer an option. I'm gonna have to check out your proposal. Maybe I'll walk over there today to take a gander. Fun speculating, isn't it?

[emu steve]

Surprised no comment on this:

http://www.mlive.com/sports/2016/04/...didates_f.html

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Surprised no comment on this:

http://www.mlive.com/sports/2016/04/...didates_f.html

The MLive article is new, but the info in it is not. All Detroit needs is to identify who'd be the franchisee. I think everyone's first choice is DG. Come on, Dan!

[emu steve]

The MLive article is new, but the info in it is not. All Detroit needs is to identify who'd be the franchisee. I think everyone's first choice is DG. Come on, Dan!

The article implies Detroit is a top candidate. Previously I didn't not think it was a 'top tier' candidate...

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Good point, emu steve. I think MLS is doing a good job of managing the league, and it seems they are following specific plans to grow the league's size, visibility, and marketing prowess. I think they have identified cities that are likely to both support a team, and offer a good opportunity to grow the sport and league. They also probably realize that if they have specific commitments to have new franchises in certain larger cities, especially ones with the right demographic profile for a sizable fan base, it will very much improve their bargaining position when it comes time to renew media rights.

[ABetterDetroit]

"MLS has had conversations with potential owners in Detroit, although they remain unidentified."

I still firmly believe that MLS is way past hoping that certain markets show interest. If Detroit keeps popping into the conversation there is a possible owner in negotiation that has the bucks. MLS will be a huge part of the sports landscape in the future, its growth rate is already fantastic.

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016...austin-detroit

[emu steve]

Indeed, to a league, any league, having say 26, 28, 30 or 32 teams [[or whatever) and NOT have Detroit seems absurd.

When I think of MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, etc. I think Detroit. Detroit was a pioneer in each league, esp. NHL.

To me Sacramento, San Antonio, etc. are 2nd priority to the larger metropolitan areas like Detroit.

I guess that having no ideal site for a stadium could be a problem.

I still maintain the best hope is somewhere in Midtown, perhaps west of Cass Tech where the Iitches own property and could sell their excess land there for a purpose they approve [[i.e., soccer stadium).

I think site assembly would work better there then a lot of other desirable locations, e.g., river front.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I still maintain the best hope is somewhere in Midtown, perhaps west of Cass Tech where the Iitches own property and could sell their excess land there for a purpose they approve [[i.e., soccer stadium).

This is one reason I think the Ilitches could be a potential owner. They could use quite a bit of land they already own. Additionally, if they want to have a stand-alone sports division [[perhaps spun off into its own company) adding a third team could be a good idea. However, with the quickly escalating prices of property anywhere near downtown/midtown, a potential owner really needs to be working now to assemble the full amount of land that they need. It would be cost prohibitive a few years down the road.

[Bham1982]

Getting MDOT to move the greyhound terminal shouldn't be extremely difficult.

Move the heavily used intercity bus terminal to accommodate a few minor league soccer games. Vitality and transit replaced with grass and bleachers.

As bad as the city's downtown decision making has been, I shudder to imagine if DYes planning ideas were actually implemented. The same people who profess to be pro-transit and pro-downtown want to kill one of the only transit-oriented activity centers?

[dtowncitylover]

Move the heavily used intercity bus terminal to accommodate a few minor league soccer games. Vitality and transit replaced with grass and bleachers.

As bad as the city's downtown decision making has been, I shudder to imagine if DYes planning ideas were actually implemented. The same people who profess to be pro-transit and pro-downtown want to kill one of the only transit-oriented activity centers?

And pray tell what are your planning ideas? This website exists as an exchange of ideas, perfect or imperfect.

A lot of things, both public [[the freeways, Wayne State) and private [[MGM Casino, DMC Complex) have destroyed the city's urbanity.

And technically, the place ABD mentions is in Corktown, along a Freeway and would go on top of an abandoned skyscraper that has no historical importance and across the street three large parking lots. Yeah we're really destroying Midtown Manhattan for a stadium...It's already a dead zone. I'm not even sure the Greyhound station would have to move.

And what's so minor-league about MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER? I'm pretty sure that's all we're taking about. We're not taking about Detroit City FC.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Bham1982, I have to agree with dtcitylover. You did a bit of analytical overreach by condemning categorically what was just sometime to think about. Moving the Greyhound terminal, even if it did happen, would hardly be "killing" Greyhound in Detroit. It would just be moving it. If it happened. At some point in the future. If we got an MLS franchise.

And while I agree that many posts on this board are delusional [[some people probably also think my always logical ideas are, too), as dtcitylover said, this board is mostly for discussion. None of us here are doing detailed field research to make final recommendations to the City Council for final policy implementation. We suggest, discuss and criticize things, places, people and ideas based on our own opinions. Is it possible that building a soccer stadium on or near the Greyhound station is a bad idea? Sure. But throwing the idea out to be discussed is hardly reason to crucify someone over it. Besides, that general location for a stadium has quite a bit of merit if you ask me.

[Bham1982]

Bham1982, I have to agree with dtcitylover. You did a bit of analytical overreach by condemning categorically what was just sometime to think about. Moving the Greyhound terminal, even if it did happen, would hardly be "killing" Greyhound in Detroit. It would just be moving it. If it happened. At some point in the future. If we got an MLS franchise.

The Greyhound terminal is much busier and more important to Detroit than the People Mover or the Woodward Trolley, yet the same people who think the trolley is the Second Coming would have no problem relocating the bus terminal for an empty lawn to play a few soccer matches.

Of course there are many differing opinions, but, speaking very broadly, DYes commentators are hopelessly fixated on sports venues as urban revitalization tools [[despite every economist on earth disagreeing) and are absolutely clueless when it comes to transit and mobility

On the one hand would give their first-born to see the Quicken trolley completed, on the other hand dismissing existing transit, probably because it mostly serves poor black people aka people who actually need transit, rather than 20-something pseudo-hipsters from Novi who want to ride a train to the bars.

There is no MLS team coming to Detroit anytime soon, MLS doesn't play many matches, doesn't generate big crowds, tends to play in suburban venues, and sports venues don't do squat in terms of economic growth or urban revitalization.

If your downtown is so worthless that you would replace existing urbanity with a grass field unused 300+ days a year, then your downtown planning is an abject failure. MLS teams play 17 home games a year.