In the spirit of Detroit Yes, I submit what I believe the biggest issue Detroit faces

[Dan Wesson]

In the spirit of Detroit Yes, I submit what I believe the biggest issue Detroit faces as well as the Detroit metro area and Society as a whole.


"Detroit -- What went wrong?"
"How can we heal it?"
"Where to do we go from here?"

http://www.datadrivendetroit.org/pub..._SDCReport.pdf

[Lowell]

At a simple but important level this study shows that there are less children in Detroit with worsening statistics across the spectrum of measures.

It means that the city of Detroit continues to be left in the care of the vast bulk of the region's poor and under-educated. It seems apparent that parents capable of moving their children away continue to do so while those who can't are left behind.

An increasingly needy citizenry that is incapable of contributing tax revenue while requiring revenue-consuming services bodes poorly for post-bankruptcy Detroit. After the books are balanced this situation will continue and the financial crisis will reappear.

In a sense Detroit serves as a human landfill for the region and state's social problems and needs to rewarded for that service.

A formula for sharing that burden [[a distressed area state revenue sharing bonus) while implementing policies aimed at reversing the continuing population/wealth slide [[making distressed neighborhoods tax-free with insurance rates lowered to the state average) is needed.

[Hermod]

In a sense Detroit serves as a human landfill for the region and state's social problems and needs to rewarded for that service.

Lowell, the term "landfill" would imply that the state is actively moving the problems into Detroit to get them out of other areas. The consensus on DetroitYes seems to be that problems are moving out of Detroit to the inner ring suburbs and that the "oh so special" arts, music, and culture types are moving in and revitalizing Detroit.

[Honky Tonk]

At a simple but important level this study shows that there are less children in Detroit with worsening statistics across the spectrum of measures.

It means that the city of Detroit continues to be left in the care of the vast bulk of the region's poor and under-educated. It seems apparent that parents capable of moving their children away continue to do so while those who can't are left behind.

An increasingly needy citizenry that is incapable of contributing tax revenue while requiring revenue-consuming services bodes poorly for post-bankruptcy Detroit. After the books are balanced this situation will continue and the financial crisis will reappear.

In a sense Detroit serves as a human landfill for the region and state's social problems and needs to rewarded for that service.

A formula for sharing that burden [[a distressed area state revenue sharing bonus) while implementing policies aimed at reversing the continuing population/wealth slide [[making distressed neighborhoods tax-free with insurance rates lowered to the state average) is needed.

Lowell, Aside from what's going on in Midtown and Downtown, you don't have a snowball's chance in hell to repopulate most neighborhoods in the City. If they try to tax the outer regions to support Detroit, it will be met with strong opposition. Detroit has been, and still is, in a downward spiral. Rampant crime, few caring or competent cops, dicey City services. They've already tried selling homes for a dollar, even subsidizing people to move back, and nothing's worked, and it's not getting better. The "Human Landfill" you speak of, was created by none other than the City itself. As capable people left in disgust, they were replaced by people who couldn't afford to live elsewhere. Homes that were rehabbed 10 years ago, are now burned out shells. The number one priority for the City should be attention to crime issues, and I'm not talking about the Duggan\Craig dog & pony shows. I don't know or have the answer. People leave because they don't want the daily struggle, period. They want good lives for themselves and their loved ones, for the short time that they're here.

[DetroitPlanner]

Hermod, I would not say that these problems are moving more than more people are getting stuck in its grip.

While the cost of goods, services continue to escalate the wages that are paid around here have shrunk for manufacturing workers and remain at best stagnant for most other sectors.

We are increasingly becomming a poor Southern town without the advantage of having the republicans wanting our vote. We have few jobs associated with the war mongers that help stabilize the base of many towns in the south through defense contracts, bases, etc. Yes we still have TACOM, but lets just face it tanks and vehicles are not cutting edge war technology in a battle that increasingly calls on drones and jet fighters to do the dirty work.

Many of the kids know they were born into poverty. They know they have few options to get out. It is a sad world today.

[Lowell]

Look at it this way. If we were to separate out those in poverty living in the City of Detroit we would have a bleak city of 300,000 mostly children -- more than double the next biggest city in the in the metro.

It is unfair and impossible for the rest of those to carry that burden alone. They are already plagued by high insurance rates, blight and crime created by that poverty.

The poor of Detroit are not just people who happen to be stuck in Detroit. They are our Michigan citizens and our State needs to step up and address the burden imbalance that is drowning Detroit.

It does great damage to the image and brand of our state and our auto industries to have the name Detroit equated the uneducated, the impoverished, blight, crime and murder. It hurts us all.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Lowell, the bulk of public assistance programs are state and federally funded. Yes, the city is heavily burdened by our poor, but the state and federal anti-poverty/poverty programs [[which I would argue in the long run have made our poverty more permanent) already pay for food, housing, health care and many, many other things. Also, our poor I think are largely not buying insurance of any kind. But we will never solve the socio-economic problems by throwing more money at them. You can't unpoverty someone else. Changes in attitude and behavior need to be affected to end people's poverty. Our kids need to have it drilled into them every day from every source that if they stay in school, don't have kids until they are married adults, and avoid drinking and drugs, they have almost no chance of being impoverished when they grow up. School vouchers, bringing more entry-level service jobs to town, and other things can help, of course. But we can't write a check to end poverty. I would be 100% for it if we could. There is no history of an impoverished group of people being spent into the economic mainstream. The poor need to be helped, but along with the help they need to be shown how to function in the world of work and responsibility. That missing element drives and sustains poverty. Education, job training, all that stuff is important of course. But the fix our poor need is not monetary. The city the poor live in will always be chronically challenged financially. There is no unfairness in that. It's just geography. The existing welfare state has been successfully keeping the poor poor since at least the Great Society began. And it's so terrible because it has rendered the poor [[including, too, the rural poor) as nothing more than zoo creatures, actively prevented from entering the real world, using their hearts and brains like everyone else. The welfare state might be annoying to taxpayers, but it is devastating to recipients.

[Wesley Mouch]

Look at it this way. If we were to separate out those in poverty living in the City of Detroit we would have a bleak city of 300,000 mostly children -- more than double the next biggest city in the in the metro.

It is unfair and impossible for the rest of those to carry that burden alone. They are already plagued by high insurance rates, blight and crime created by that poverty.

The poor of Detroit are not just people who happen to be stuck in Detroit. They are our Michigan citizens and our State needs to step up and address the burden imbalance that is drowning Detroit.

It does great damage to the image and brand of our state and our auto industries to have the name Detroit equated the uneducated, the impoverished, blight, crime and murder. It hurts us all.

Poverty creates crime? Really?

And can you tell us how much 'stepping up' the State needs to do before things get better?

Until you can get past this hangup you have that somebody did us wrong, you'll won't be able to see that the problem isn't money.

We need new solutions. Not just more money.

Lowell, I know you mean well. But how much more failure on the current path before you reconsider your approach?

[SDCC]

Unemployment = Poverty = Crime

Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, any city has to have employment, and not just working @ a car wash or a fast food restaurant or a liquor store. A job that pays a living wage is the caveat.

[softailrider]

Lowell, Aside from what's going on in Midtown and Downtown, you don't have a snowball's chance in hell to repopulate most neighborhoods in the City. If they try to tax the outer regions to support Detroit, it will be met with strong opposition. Detroit has been, and still is, in a downward spiral. Rampant crime, few caring or competent cops, dicey City services. They've already tried selling homes for a dollar, even subsidizing people to move back, and nothing's worked, and it's not getting better. The "Human Landfill" you speak of, was created by none other than the City itself. As capable people left in disgust, they were replaced by people who couldn't afford to live elsewhere. Homes that were rehabbed 10 years ago, are now burned out shells. The number one priority for the City should be attention to crime issues, and I'm not talking about the Duggan\Craig dog & pony shows. I don't know or have the answer. People leave because they don't want the daily struggle, period. They want good lives for themselves and their loved ones, for the short time that they're here.

I agree with all of the above. I would say that 50 to 65% of the neighborhoods in the city are gone and not coming back. That might be a conservative estimate. Drive down almost every street you see housing that has just been allowed to go to hell. It should have never come to that. It's enough to make you cry.
James Carville made an interesting comparison between Chicago and Detroit. Why does Chicago work? According to him it's leadership, as bad as Chicago politics are they don't compare to what we've had her for decades.

[Wesley Mouch]

Unemployment = Poverty = Crime

Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, any city has to have employment, and not just working @ a car wash or a fast food restaurant or a liquor store. A job that pays a living wage is the caveat.

I'll grant you that there's a relationship. I don't see it as one-to-one nor as the primary factor.

So to you, policing and community don't matter?

[313WX]

I agree with all of the above. I would say that 50 to 65% of the neighborhoods in the city are gone and not coming back. That might be a conservative estimate. Drive down almost every street you see housing that has just been allowed to go to hell. It should have never come to that. It's enough to make you cry.
James Carville made an interesting comparison between Chicago and Detroit. Why does Chicago work? According to him it's leadership, as bad as Chicago politics are they don't compare to what we've had her for decades.

Well besides the bolded, I believe the folks of Chicago had a much more vested interest in seeing their city succeed, in spite of the trials and tribulations they faced. Folks could have fleed Chicago and take their capital with them after the great fire or during the rough years in the 1970s, but they instead hunkered down to preserve what is a great city.

Folks here just didn't have that same type of pride for Detroit [[for Michigan, yes, but not Detroit). Many "Detroiters" don't even know:

*What Detroit-style pizza is [[nor its history)
*The Fox Theatre is the 2nd largest theatre in the country
*The Detroit-Windsor border is the busiest International Crossing in the
*The history behind the Coney Island
*What's the tallest building in Detroit.

[[amongst other things...)

I think there was a very prominent capitalist from the early 1900s who put it best regarding people's mindset of Detroit. It [[was) a great place to make money, but not such a great place to spend it.

[Lowell]

Poverty creates crime? Really?

And can you tell us how much 'stepping up' the State needs to do before things get better?

Until you can get past this hangup you have that somebody did us wrong, you'll won't be able to see that the problem isn't money.

We need new solutions. Not just more money.

Lowell, I know you mean well. But how much more failure on the current path before you reconsider your approach?

You are putting words in my mouth. I have no hang up that somebody did anybody wrong.

Instead there has been a blind sprawl that has left behind a fiscally insoluble city of 300,000 poor people who can't pay a penny of tax. This is the elephant in the room that you seem to be content to ignore. Will it just fix itself?

In a magical world they would all be distributed proportionally among all the suburbs and Detroit would get well overnight. But that's impossible.

You say we need new solutions but offer none. I have.

[Hermod]

You are putting words in my mouth. I have no hang up that somebody did anybody wrong.

Instead there has been a blind sprawl that has left behind a fiscally insoluble city of 300,000 poor people who can't pay a penny of tax. This is the elephant in the room that you seem to be content to ignore. Will it just fix itself?

In a magical world they would all be distributed proportionally among all the suburbs and Detroit would get well overnight. But that's impossible.

You say we need new solutions but offer none. I have.

The city of Houghton, Michigan [[up in da YooPee) has a lower median family income than Detroit [[$23,912 versus $26,955) according to the census bureau.

By your logic, Houghton should be a worse crime-ridden hellhole than Detroit.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Unemployment = Poverty = Crime

Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, any city has to have employment, and not just working @ a car wash or a fast food restaurant or a liquor store. A job that pays a living wage is the caveat.

This is a destructive thought process, SDCC, although I know it is not intended as such. The problems with just giving people jobs are that a) jobs are not a commodity that can be readily dispensed, and b) many of our poor are not qualified to even perform an "unskilled" job. You have to be able to read, write, and perform at least basic math to work at just about any job. Getting people job ready has to occur; those with basic education and either a vocational skill or killer work ethic will be a valuable employee.

The other part of your statement, SDCC, that is harmful is that the living wage argument sets up the premise that a job below $10 or $11 or $15 an hour is "beneath" someone. If you have no earned income, NOTHING IS BENEATH YOU. And then what would be an opportunity at $8/hour becomes an insult to someone. The unemployed person with that attitude is thus convinced to not step on the bottom rung of the ladder. You know who you can be pretty sure will never have a $15/hour job? Someone who couldn't be bothered to take an $8/hour job, that's who.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

You say we need new solutions but offer none. I have.

There is no one on DY that I hold in more esteem than you, Lowell. But suggesting that your post at the top of this thread is a solution is oversimplification at best.

To begin with, there is no realistic chance that the state will raise or shift revenue to provide significant additional ongoing funds for the city. A little help here and there has and will come. But non-Detroiters [[and some Detroiters, too) are not about to support a tax hike to tackle Detroit poverty, even assuming that idea had merit. Even if Gov. Snyder lost it wouldn't pass both houses of the legislature.

You have correctly identified a stark challenge Detroit faces: how do you pay for services for people who are not contributing to the tax pool? And if demographic trends remain unchanged, will not ever be significant contributors? Well that is a complicated matter.

The first bit of news is good, however: Detroit's rapidly [[for Detroit) revitalizing CBD and nearby residential areas are going to provide the CofD with significantly more income in the coming years. More developed properties and higher property values will equal more property tax revenue. And all the new residents [[thousands so far) are professionals paying our city income taxes. Don't forget, too, that the Mayor and the EM have upped collections on back owed debt to the city [[taxes, tickets, water bills, etc), and are working more dillegently than anyone in recent history to reshape and reform and resize city government. Those things will really help the budget in the long run.

But the ultimate answer is, one by one, to get those kids in poor homes out of the cycle of poverty. Keep them in GOOD SCHOOLS, be it the neighborhood school or somewhere else. Keep them out of drugs and gangs. And convince boys to keep it in their pants, girls to keep their legs closed, and anyone not doing those things needs to be convinced to use a condom. Some adults, for their own reasons, will never break out of poverty [[some will, though). But all the kids are savable. When kids born into poverty get their high school diploma, sober and childless, at age 18, we will be fixing poverty. Although it will take years to see it.

[DetroitPlanner]

The city of Houghton, Michigan [[up in da YooPee) has a lower median family income than Detroit [[$23,912 versus $26,955) according to the census bureau.

By your logic, Houghton should be a worse crime-ridden hellhole than Detroit.

Houghton has a lot of ghost money flowing into it through Michigan Tech. Kids that go there are generally not from poor families and they do get a nice subsidy. I am willing to bet if you compare Ann Arbor to a city known to be less poor you will see the same thing.

[Lowell]

Mikey I appreciate and respect your posts and POV but what you offer
as a solution is an idealistic, almost sermonizing, approach I have heard repeatedly over the decades. It neatly puts things off for years "will take years to see it" as you say. Nothing ever gets done other than Detroit being left in the care of more poorer people while the tax-paying-capable exit.

The promising development we see happening along the Downtown to New Center axis are likewise future solutions. But it is no match for the demands of a city within the city of 300,000 incapable of contributing revenue. That challenge will continue to collapse Detroit's finances no matter what Mr. Orr does. We have seen that revolving-door dance with the schools.

Simply put there X number of poor people in Michigan. It is unfair and impossible for Detroit to have to care for such such a disproportionate share. Can't be done. The burden has to be shared and incentives such as I suggest need to be put in place to both stop the tax-paying-capable from leaving and to attract new ones to settle here.

[illwill]

Mikey I appreciate and respect your posts and POV but what you offer
as a solution is an idealistic, almost sermonizing, approach I have heard repeatedly over the decades. It neatly puts things off for years "will take years to see it" as you say. Nothing ever gets done other than Detroit being left in the care of more poorer people while the tax-paying-capable exit.

The promising development we see happening along the Downtown to New Center axis are likewise future solutions. But it is no match for the demands of a city within the city of 300,000 incapable of contributing revenue. That challenge will continue to collapse Detroit's finances no matter what Mr. Orr does. We have seen that revolving-door dance with the schools.

Simply put there X number of poor people in Michigan. It is unfair and impossible for Detroit to have to care for such such a disproportionate share. Can't be done. The burden has to be shared and incentives such as I suggest need to be put in place to both stop the tax-paying-capable from leaving and to attract new ones to settle here.

Lowell, I've been saying the same thing since the very beginning. After Orr is long gone, the same old ills that caused the city to initially fail, will cause a repeat effect. The unbelievably minute and shrinking tax base will eventually cause the city to fall into the red again. Or the scary part of it is, the working class and wealthy will be left to carry the load in another 2-5 years. And most likely holding the bag when taxes have doubled on them, or more.

But I'll be very honest with you... I'm hoping with everything in my heart that I'm wrong. And that the momentum is for real this time. I just hope it can sustain long enough for the tax base to reverse course.

[Lowell]

The city of Houghton, Michigan [[up in da YooPee) has a lower median family income than Detroit [[$23,912 versus $26,955) according to the census bureau.

By your logic, Houghton should be a worse crime-ridden hellhole than Detroit.

Apples and oranges. Circumstances of a rural village of 7000 compared with an urban center 100 times that make the two largely incomparable. The poor of Detroit could populate over 40 Houghtons and equals the entire Yooper population - which is likewise declining.

I'm only talking about Detroit but I know well that that there even more poor in the rest of the state. Yoopers and Upper-lowers have very high levels of poverty. Flint, Highland Park, Benton Harbor and a string of others likewise carry unfair burdens of the poor.

This is a Michigan problem. Pure Michigan? Hah! Let me take you for a drive on the Eastside.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

But Lowell, the people who advocate ideas like mine [[and there are more eloquent and specific ideas than mine) have not been in power for a significant length of time in major cities in the country for ages! And certainly not in Detroit, which has not had an elected official who was not both a liberal and a Democrat in more than 40 years! Mike Duggan might be the least liberal mayor we've had in ages, but he is still a liberal. My ideas are only philosophical because we've never been in power. The spending-to-end poverty model is 50 years old, with roughly the same poverty rate! Try as I do, I can't wrap my head around the logic of staying with some version of the current welfare state. It makes no sense whatsoever. I really am bothered more by the way the poor have to live than I am by paying taxes. In WW2 we learned that our torpedos misfired almost 100% of the time due to a failure in the navigation system in the torpedos. Even though it was an expensive and time consuming change, the Navy insisted on fixing the error; they did and it quickly aided our cause, especially in the Pacific. Our anti-poverty torpedos miss almost every target. People are like engines of potential. We need to focus on starting the engines, not pushing the car. Thanks for engaging me in debate, Lowell. Have a good night.

[Lowell]

Indeed you have illwill. And I share your hope and optimism that this time is for real. Also I have a good feeling that the state will grow up, comprehend the damage to our state's image our destroyed older cities create and share the burden.

To the rest if the world Detroit = Cars. How can we project our cars as shiny quality products coming from Pure Michigan when the backdrop is a broken-down bankrupt city?

[Embee]

Unemployment = Poverty = Crime

Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, any city has to have employment, and not just working @ a car wash or a fast food restaurant or a liquor store. A job that pays a living wage is the caveat.

It's not that simple and unemployment doesn't automatically equal crime. Windsor has had one of the highest unemployment rates in the country for several years but has also had one of the lowest crime rates over that time.

[Lowell]

It's not that simple and unemployment doesn't automatically equal crime. Windsor has had one of the highest unemployment rates in the country for several years but has also had one of the lowest crime rates over that time.

Does the crime in Windsor happen at equal rates in poor and wealthy neighborhoods?

[SWMAP]

I read that, on the SW side, Marathon offered good employment openings-the corporate kind- and a preference for Detroiters. However there were only 15 new Detroiters hired. Likely a candidate needed a somewhat relevant work history, a diploma or certificate, ability to pass a capability test, a drug test, and reference or two and be drug-free. Really, from what I hear from other potential employers in the City, it is very hard to find Detroit residents who can enter the workplace.Do you think it is the fault of the schools? They say that kids are not prepared for school, waste their school years and drop out.Is it the fault of the predominant culture? I think so. I read the stories of 10 or 12 young Black men killed trying to climb into eople's houses and I note the sudden silence on the part of the Black leadership usually so quick to blame the police or policy for Black men's death and destruction. But in this instance it is pretty clear that the failure is one of home and morality.