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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zacha341 View Post
    Summarily demonizing everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater' is very intolerant IMO.
    This is such a dishonest argument.

    Opposition to gay marriage is bigotry, plain and simple. There's not a single logical reason to be opposed.

    Being tolerant to intolerance is absurd. Furthermore, get over the whole "tolerance" thing. Misappropriating it doesn't help your argument.

  2. #102

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    Thanks for weighing in your opinion. Especially the 'plain and simple' aspect relative to a complex issue which is neither.

    It is not logical to summarize everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater'. I am standing on that, firm.

    Regarding the term 'Tolerance' in its contemporary use I'm curious, aside from this topic, as to why it is often incorrectly used to infer 'endorsement' or 'agreement'??

    Look up the word:

    tol·er·ance

    noun: tolerance
    • 1. the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.
      "the tolerance of corruption"
      synonyms: acceptance, toleration; Moreopen-mindedness, broad-mindedness, forbearance, liberality, liberalism;
      patience, charity, indulgence, understanding
      "an attitude of tolerance toward other people"
      • the capacity to endure continued subjection to something, esp. a drug, transplant, antigen, or environmental conditions, without adverse reaction.
        plural noun: tolerances
        "the desert camel shows the greatest tolerance to dehydration"
        synonyms: endurance of, resistance to, resilience to, resistance to, immunity to More"she has a low tolerance to alcohol"
      • diminution in the body's response to a drug after continued use.

    • 2. an allowable amount of variation of a specified quantity, esp. in the dimensions of a machine or part.
      "250 parts in his cars were made to tolerances of one thousandth of an inch"
    Last edited by Zacha341; March-23-14 at 03:04 PM.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zacha341 View Post
    Agreed. The misuse of, or direct goal of some religions has resulted in the killing and maiming of many, unarguably.

    But, far more from those so imperious to consider themselves 'god', imposing their doctrine of the state upon the masses!

    Umm let's see -- on the short list:

    Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
    Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
    Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
    Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
    Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
    Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
    Pol Pot - 2,397,0003
    You forgot the Roman Catholic Church whose numbers over the centuries I'm sure would dwarf those and who still today considers women less than men.

  4. #104
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    As I have stated here on other threads, it is only a matter of time before the government begins to dictate what Christian churches and pastors can say and determine as orthodoxy.
    Not going to happen. That would be unconstitutional.

    By the way, churches will not be forced to perform same sex marriages if they don't want to.
    Last edited by Pam; March-23-14 at 02:04 PM.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by noise View Post
    This is such a dishonest argument.

    Opposition to gay marriage is bigotry, plain and simple. There's not a single logical reason to be opposed.

    Being tolerant to intolerance is absurd. Furthermore, get over the whole "tolerance" thing. Misappropriating it doesn't help your argument.
    You mean you don't buy the "I have gay friends and family and love them but don't want them to have equal rights" line? I have a bit of a hard time believing it too. To me its similar to some southern matriarch saying "we're not bigots - we love our colored maid - she's a part of the family!"

  6. #106

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    No problem. Toss 'em in if you'll feel better. That was and is the power side-taking 'politics' of religion mingling in mans inhumanity to man. Further, my point was to make plain that murder and genocide is not a 'religion' only construct as so often stated as fact. My partial list and history bear that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meddle View Post
    You forgot the Roman Catholic Church whose numbers over the centuries I'm sure would dwarf those and who still today considers women less than men.
    Last edited by Zacha341; March-23-14 at 02:56 PM.

  7. #107

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    I can see how one could derive similarities on judging that, but it is not the same. Specifically, that is not what I mean. Well stated position however.

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast View Post
    You mean you don't buy the "I have gay friends and family and love them but don't want them to have equal rights" line? I have a bit of a hard time believing it too. To me its similar to some southern matriarch saying "we're not bigots - we love our colored maid - she's a part of the family!"
    Last edited by Zacha341; March-23-14 at 02:20 PM.

  8. #108

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    Stranger things have happened across the globe. Tina Turner sang "What's Love Go To With It?"... the new song 'trending' will be substituting the word Love with "the Constitution" ......

    Eh, anyone wanna weigh in how long it will take before ALL churches (Christian or secular based) will be 'obliged' to marry same sex couples? Or be deemed as 'hateful'.

    We can leave Islam (Mosques here in the states) out for now, they may be more hearty to withstand a tax-exemption status pull... or time in the courts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pam View Post
    Not going to happen. That would be unconstitutional.

    By the way, churches will not be forced to perform same sex marriages if they don't want to.
    Last edited by Zacha341; March-23-14 at 03:08 PM.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam View Post
    Not going to happen. That would be unconstitutional.

    By the way, churches will not be forced to perform same sex marriages if they don't want to.
    I agree, due to separation of church and state churches will NOT perform same sex marriages. It will never happen ( But the UU cults do.)

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    It will never happen ( But the UU cults do.)
    I sense you call these other religions as "cults" and with a patronizing smug tone. Let's not forget that the majority of all religions started as cults.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zacha341 View Post
    Eh, anyone wanna weigh in how long it will take before ALL churches (Christian or secular based) will be 'obliged' to marry same sex couples? Or be deemed as 'hateful'.
    While the Lutheran churches of Scandinavia and The Church of England are state churches I'm not sure if they are "forced" to perform same-sex marriages, I can tell you that churches (that aren't state sanctioned) in nations that have same-sex marriage are forced to perform these marriages. While some like to think that the western European states are atheistic, secular hellholes, the Catholic Church is very strong in some parts and still active against same-sex marriage, not because they are forced to but because the Catholic Church is still a patriarchal hierarchy and anything that threatens that power must be crushed. In fact, gays don't care about them. We want to be treated the same in civil, secular society not within the Catholic Church. I don't think alot of gays are wishing to get married in churches that treat them as less than, and to believe gays will take over your church to get married is extreme thinking.

    And Danny, your posts are only relevant to any gays that take the Bible as literal. And to call the UU Church a cult is hilarious. Jehovah's Witnesses are members of a cult. UU Church is a bit too loose for me, but they are the complete opposite of a cult. A cult is not liberal in their theology and beliefs. It is a strict and degrading organization brought about for mind control and power over members.

  12. #112

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    Interesting points DTCL. And no, I don't attend a specific church regularly at this time, so it would not be 'my' church affected per se. But I do follow what is going in the clerical and Christian community. As you say some Gays want no parts of the Catholic church, and I am not Catholic. But, there may be some who desire or demand that church doctrine in the broader spectrum to be more inclusive (changed) so to speak. It will be interesting to see how all of this works out here in the US. Thanks for your comments.
    Last edited by Zacha341; March-23-14 at 03:58 PM.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post

    Yes, but we humans are unique under God's image. When God made a declaration that Homosexuality is an abomination, don't do it. If you decided to do it. You're rejecting its rule and disagreeing of its commandments. You can believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. But when the Holy Trinity see you doing nasty things. They not be involve with your sins, but they will take your sins away. Instead of you denounce your iniquities.

    If you are homosexual that was your decision. You made a decision to stay out of the church and calling God a liar! ( If you still attending church). Some folks who confess their homosexuality from national and social media to any religious institutions will risk their lives. If you're homosexual keep it a secret! If you decided to release your homosexuality in public, get ready to lose anyone you love, get ready to lose your job and get ready to lost place in any religious institution. ( At least you can join a cult like the UU Church, which its not a church!)
    Danny thank you for this post because it truly represents what some people believe, like you. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ His son who died for my sins. It's this "straight privilege" that some people have. You being straight isn't a secret because it's assumed. I don't want to be "up in your face" about it, but I want to be honest with myself in front of my friends, family, and co-workers without the fear of retaliation. Luckily I have loving friends and family and church friends who love me for me. Sexuality is not a choice, it's biology and its a dice roll. Biology is a beautiful and diverse world of God's creation, and sexuality is a part of that. Just like color, personality, size, talents, etc.

    We also like to think that the Catholic Church, probably one of the most vocal against same-sex marriage, is some homophobic institution. I grew up in that Church and while I left it due to various reasons, I didn't really leave it because I was gay. If I came out to the Church, I knew they wouldn't disown me. They would love me but tell me I can't act on my thoughts, based on thought that's 1000s of years old. (Hey straight people, try not to act on our most natural of desires!) I can't accept that God doesn't want me to show my love for someone and therefore suppress my sexuality and desire to love. Remember, God is Love. (My feelings on the Catholic Church are extremely dichotomic, if you couldn't tell).

    Much of what the old guard thinks about homosexuality comes from passed down beliefs and traditions. This is the modern age full of modern knowledge and thought. What we know now wasn't known 100, 1000, 10,000 years ago.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zacha341 View Post
    As you say some want no parts of the 'church' but there may be some gays who desire to have church doctrine to be more inclusive (changed) so to speak. It will be interesting to see how all of this works out.
    Yes, very much so and you could say I'm a part of that, but I'm not gonna storm the Vatican or Mecca.

  15. #115

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    Yesterday was the first day there was freedom of religion in Michigan, because it was the first (and so-far only) day that restrictive fundamentalist religious beliefs did not prevent UU churches (or any other church) from performing valid, legal same-gender marriages.

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by trotwood View Post
    Well hot D#MN(pardon the expression)!!!
    This is it!! I don't think I've ever read anything on this forum that I love as much as I do this post!!
    Dtowncitylover you're awesome!!! WOW!!!
    Thank you.
    That's trotwood! That's very kind and I truly appreciate it. Ok, I think I'm done for awhile.

  17. #117

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zacha341 View Post
    Thanks for weighing in your opinion. Especially the 'plain and simple' aspect relative to a complex issue which is neither.

    It is not logical to summarize everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater'. I am standing on that, firm.

    Regarding the term 'Tolerance' in its contemporary use I'm curious, aside from this topic, as to why it is often incorrectly used to infer 'endorsement' or 'agreement'??

    Look up the word:

    tol·er·ance

    noun: tolerance
    • 1. the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.
      "the tolerance of corruption"
      synonyms: acceptance, toleration; Moreopen-mindedness, broad-mindedness, forbearance, liberality, liberalism;
      patience, charity, indulgence, understanding
      "an attitude of tolerance toward other people"
      • the capacity to endure continued subjection to something, esp. a drug, transplant, antigen, or environmental conditions, without adverse reaction.
        plural noun: tolerances
        "the desert camel shows the greatest tolerance to dehydration"
        synonyms: endurance of, resistance to, resilience to, resistance to, immunity to More"she has a low tolerance to alcohol"
      • diminution in the body's response to a drug after continued use.

    • 2. an allowable amount of variation of a specified quantity, esp. in the dimensions of a machine or part.
      "250 parts in his cars were made to tolerances of one thousandth of an inch"
    You can stand firm on being totally wrong, but don't expect any logical person to respect your opinion.

    I don't think we need to limit this to hatred...stupidity is just as bad.

    There is absolutely nothing complicated about this issue. You know this, which is why you won't address those made-up complications.

    I'm not really interested in singling you out, as you sound like any of the thousands of conservative posters on any news site, regardless of your intent.
    Last edited by noise; March-23-14 at 04:43 PM.

  18. #118

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    "...don't expect any logical person to respect your opinion."

    ANY is a broad statement and you know it. Unsupportable. And you 'refuse' to address the complexity of the issue beyond denying it.

    Anyway, good to know you speak for everyone. I never claimed such....

    Oh my (sounds of scurrying away), I'm saddened that I've been deemed eh, er damned to be a 'con-ser-Va-tive'! Horrors, the dreaded 'label' that explains, depreciates, and silences... (well some).

    Back to the outer ring of darkness I go. All of my commentary summarily dismissed. Sniffles...... Really? Have a grand evening, Noise.
    Last edited by Zacha341; March-23-14 at 06:18 PM.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zacha341 View Post
    I hear you. I was responding to the broader thinking out there of some whom demonizing those for simply holding a different opinion, who say similar things. Your specific comments shed more light in general on the subject.

    The pressure of being called a 'hater' may make some agree to certain things while their hearts and minds remain unchanged. Everyone knows what they feel which may differ from what they show in public. Thanks.
    Zacha,

    I appreciate the civil discussion on such a passionate subject.

    The big thing for me is that people who don't want gay marriage should just not pay attention to it. For example, I'm not gay. The thought of two men engaging in love-making literally makes me cringe. However, since I don't have to watch, then I don't care. The thought of overweight people making love also makes me cringe, but I don't feel the need to stop them from getting married either. (I'm not trying to pick on overweight people, just illustrating a point)

    When folks say that they love people who are gay, but don't want them to have equal rights, to me it's not very different than saying:

    "I love black people and have friends that are black, I just want don't want them to be able to go to good schools, live in good neighborhoods, use the same drinking fountains, sit in the front of the bus, etc..."

    Either the government needs to get out of the business of marriage, or it needs to allow anyone to get married.

    Heck, I don't even care about polygamy. We might have to close up some tax benefits, but I really don't care if 10 people want to get married to each other. It's not the life I want for myself, but they're not forcing me to do it.

    Same thing with prostitution, just like gay marriage, it's a victim-less crime. Prostitution should be allowed, regulated, and taxed.

    For many of us, we're not trying to come out and call people who oppose gay marriage haters, but we just don't understand why people who object to it care what other willing adults do to each other.

    I think basketball is a boring sport, and that no one who has half a brain should subject themselves to it, but I don't want to see it outlawed, because it makes other people happy.

    The big issue with being against gay marriage is "why"? You can't say tradition, because slavery was a tradition at one time. You can't say religion, because we don't allow religion to shape our government and rights. You can't say "because being gay is a choice", because just about everything we do is a choice. Even if being gay is a choice, so is eating at McDonald's, playing Minecraft, and cheering for the Red Wings.

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zacha341 View Post
    "...don't expect any logical person to respect your opinion."

    ANY is a broad statement and you know it. Unsupportable. And you 'refuse' to address the complexity of the issue beyond denying it.

    Anyway, good to know you speak for everyone. I never claimed such....

    Oh my (sounds of scurrying away), I'm saddened that I've been deemed eh, er damned to be a 'con-ser-Va-tive'! Horrors, the dreaded 'label' that explains, depreciates, and silences... (well some).

    Back to the outer ring of darkness I go. All of my commentary summarily dismissed. Sniffles...... Really? Have a grand evening, Noise.
    I think you have a reading comprehension issue. You shouldn't expect absurdity. It happens, but it's not to be banked on.

    There are no logical "complexities", which is why none have ever been mentioned. Please, enlighten us.

    Yet again, you misunderstand. Nowhere did I claim "conservative" is a negative. I was characterizing your idiotic "argument" by comparing it with a caricature we all know.

    Your commentary should be dismissed because it's illogical and misinformed. That's all. Use the ad hominem "intolerance" response again.

  21. #121

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    Noise... in your discussions about logic and especially the use of ad hominem's... have you ever indeed taken a logic course? Because if you had, your incessant use of that fallacy shows someone why has disregarded many of the rules of debating...

    And it seems like so many of your posts rarely make a point without some level of condescension on your part...
    Last edited by Gistok; March-23-14 at 10:25 PM.

  22. #122

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    Any suggestion that someone should be other then they are is inappropriate, and if followed, may cause far reaching negative/destructive consequences to themselves and others. There is room in this world for all people.

    I cringe when I hear the word tolerance used as a solution towards those who are different. I don't like the idea that someone would continue to harbor negative thoughts and feelings toward another (with no attempt to learn about or understand the person who is different) and remain silent biting their tongue. I prefer acceptance. My hope would be that people would work towards acceptance of those who are different from themselves.

    I suggest that the result of this case not be framed in the context of winners and losers, when has granting/denying rights ever been a competition? We are all people who have the capacity to love one another. Will we ever get away get away from imagining the sex and start to see the people and their relationships?

    Link to an interesting study about homophobia published in 2012.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0406234458.htm

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by 48307 View Post
    Either the government needs to get out of the business of marriage, or it needs to allow anyone to get married.

    .
    Amen!

    I have long thought that the goverment should start leaning toward issuing "Civil Union" licenses granting equal legal rights to all couples regardless of gender. Let's keep the church separate from the state and let the churches decide who gets "married" and let the government provide equal rights to all.

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gistok View Post
    Noise... in your discussions about logic and especially the use of ad hominem's... have you ever indeed taken a logic course? Because if you had, your incessant use of that fallacy shows someone why has disregarded many of the rules of debating...

    And it seems like so many of your posts rarely make a point without some level of condescension on your part...
    Yes, I have. Which is why I know pointing out illogical and stupid arguments is not ad hominem.

    While I don't tolerate much when it comes to this topic, I'd suggest you're putting too much emotion behind my posts. My condescension is limited to the occasional eye roll.

  25. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aluminum View Post
    I cringe when I hear the word tolerance used as a solution towards those who are different. I don't like the idea that someone would continue to harbor negative thoughts and feelings toward another (with no attempt to learn about or understand the person who is different) and remain silent biting their tongue. I prefer acceptance. My hope would be that people would work towards acceptance of those who are different from themselves.
    I'm mostly with you on this.

    I'm sure a few posters here, anonymous to me, are in heterosexual marriages. It is none of my business. There's nothing for me to tolerate. There's nothing for me to accept. It doesn't affect me. It just is.

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