Michigan's same sex marriage ban declared unconstitutional

[Meddle]

The central function of state-sanctioned marriage is ...

... to raise revenue from licensing fees.

[Zacha341]

The UU church has been 'progressive' for many years, I've attended their services and familiar with their teachings. To accommodate the culture wars they've made their doctrinal alignment shift to acquire the coming church 'governance'. They're not alone.

As I have stated here on other threads, it is only a matter of time before the government begins to dictate what Christian churches and pastors can say and determine as orthodoxy. That 'pesky' Bible will have to go... owing to a more secular 'tolerant' writ. Certain 'hateful' content, as determined by the state will be removed and the threat of loosing ones non-profit status will be a very strong motivator. It will be very interesting to see how the mega churches respond.

The new 'church' will emerge, giving people exactly what they want; what they desire to hear. This is discussed in the Bible in several places. No. I will not quote scripture in this context, but many are going to be effected on both sides.

Actually, many [[and increasing numbers) of churches and synagogues will NOT join you. I'm sorry that you belong to a church of hate and fear.

Certainly the UU churches will not be joining you, since they are already marrying same-sex couples.

[Zacha341]

Awesome point. The gov always has a dog in the fight!

... to raise revenue from licensing fees.

[Scottathew]

Yes, but we humans are unique under God's image. When God made a declaration that Homosexuality is an abomination, don't do it.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

The Bible says a lot of stuff, do you blindly subscribe to all of it? Or just the parts that allow you to hate people who are different?

[Zacha341]

First, let me say this clearly: There are caring and good people on both sides of this difficult issue, and there are going to be winners and losers whatever the courts determine. To believe otherwise sets forth a construct were freedom of opinion is justifiably stilted right at the start.

Perhaps some desire a stilted outcome. I do not!

Summarily demonizing everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater' is very intolerant IMO.

Talk about a race-to-the-bottom, or shall I say CHASE-to-the-bottom!

Further, the 'die off' premise is useless as there will remain [[young and old) those who'll not compromise their position for moral and other reasons -- locally and globally. That percentage will not just be the oldsters -- one foot in the coffin.

And, perhaps, shockingly to some, some of these 'haters' actually have gay friends and family members that they LOVE! They have a voice and struggle in this too.

Sadly, however some may choose to keep their views private against being codified a 'hater'. Similar to those who fear being called racist if they make any criticism re. another race or view on something of a racial content.

If silencing is a goal [[or outworking) I would not call that a victory per se.

As more and more bigoted old people die off and are replaced by young people that are more loving and accepting of others the overall attitude will change.

[Blueidone]

The Bible says a lot of stuff, do you blindly subscribe to all of it? Or just the parts that allow you to hate people who are different?

The following was part of an episode of "West Wing". It is my favorite argument for "the Bible says so"....


A talk show host defends calling homosexuality an "abomination" by saying that that is what the Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 [[That verse, by the way, reads: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such thing is an abomination.") This annoys President Bartlet who proceeds to ask a few pointed questions about just what one should accept from the Bible.

Exodus 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do."

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"

Exodus 35:2 "On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death."

"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

Leviticus 11 7and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. 8Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you."

"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?



"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side?

Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

"Think about those questions, would you?"

[Meddle]

"The Book" was written by a bunch of lonely guys who spent too much time drinking wine under the hot sun with their sheep.

[trotwood]

LOL!! Hilarious post&a wonderful point.If there were a DY 'Hall of Fame' you would definitely be in it.I like this......I like it a lot.

The following was part of an episode of "West Wing". It is my favorite argument for "the Bible says so"....


A talk show host defends calling homosexuality an "abomination" by saying that that is what the Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 [[That verse, by the way, reads: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such thing is an abomination.") This annoys President Bartlet who proceeds to ask a few pointed questions about just what one should accept from the Bible.

Exodus 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do."

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"

Exodus 35:2 "On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death."

"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

Leviticus 11 7and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. 8Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you."

"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?



"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side?

Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

"Think about those questions, would you?"

[Blueidone]

Meddle:

Here is the section of the episode...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs

Watch the whole thing...it's hilarious!

And by the way, before anyone starts in on me...I believe in God and in the basic tenets of the Bible. It is full of great lessons. But most of all I believe n the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

[jcole]

Meddle:

Here is the section of the episode...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs

Watch the whole thing...it's hilarious!

Patterned on Dr. Laura

[Zacha341]

"The Book" was written by a bunch of lonely guys who spent too much time drinking wine under the hot sun with their sheep.

Umm, eh-yeah. Withstanding what side of the gay marriage issue you're on - add to your entertainment - google this:

“The French philosopher Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lives on.

The irony of history is that 50 years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society moved into his former house and used his printing presses to print thousands of Bibles.”

[southofbloor]

The following was part of an episode of "West Wing". It is my favorite argument for "the Bible says so"....


A talk show host defends calling homosexuality an "abomination" by saying that that is what the Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 [[That verse, by the way, reads: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such thing is an abomination.") This annoys President Bartlet who proceeds to ask a few pointed questions about just what one should accept from the Bible.

Exodus 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do."

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"

Exodus 35:2 "On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death."

"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

Leviticus 11 7and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. 8Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you."

"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?



"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side?

Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

"Think about those questions, would you?"

Thanks for this. I was raised in the very conservative Plymouth Brethren and it took a long time to get through coming out and relaxing about the knowledge that I was gay, despite what I had been taught based on a few isolated scriptures. But then having been adopted from a birth out of wedlock I was probably doomed anyway. Deuteronomy 23:2 And many of us would likely be stoned by now by rights. Deut 22: 20-21. Lev. 20:9 And a whole lot of Detroiters would be handless. Mark 9:43 And I should be looking very differently at my dead brother's wife Mark 12:19.

There is a lot of good useful material in the bible about how to treat people who are different from you with dignity, respect your surroundings and creator, and live at peace with the world in all of its fantastic variation. I just wish the coalitions of pastors would focus more on how to encourage positive behaviour and less on negative politics directed at people they don't currently agree with. They should know better, behave more responsibly, and show leadership on that front - our society would be in a far better place if they could make that leap.

Zacha is right - much like racism, there will be those who remain bigoted in the future, but the people who feel comfortable arguing these positions in public and making laws like this will eventually adjust their thinking or die off still bitter and angry, and perhaps not all, but most of their grandchildren will be embarrassed for what they publicly argued.

In the meantime congrats to my Michigander friends for making another step toward a just and tolerant society. And for those fearing the wrath of God upon you for this step, gay marriage has been allowed in Canada since 2005 and our world didn't implode.

[SDCC]

Gather Around One And All…an inquisition will get the answers you’re looking for. All these heathens and non-believers need to be introduced to the very inventive methods in the torture arena; from Constantine, to Charlemagne, to the Crusades, to the Inquisition, religions have killed, maimed and tortured their beliefs upon others since the time of antiquity.

But back to the inquisition, you would need to appoint an Inquisitor – pronouncing death and torture sentences, and what not.
This position would be filled by one fellow board member – and there seem to be several that are standing in line; chomping at the bit to impress their childhood fairy tales on one another, even if it kills, and it sounds like they would.

[Zacha341]

Nice. I like your 'spin' on what I said. I would say re-read... um, but never mind.

So sad for those who have a differing opinions to all be summed up as bigoted, bitter, haters. So sad is their plight indeed.

Zacha is right - much like racism, there will be those who remain bigoted in the future, but the people who feel comfortable arguing these positions in public and making laws like this will eventually adjust their thinking or die off still bitter and angry, and perhaps not all, but most of their grandchildren will be embarrassed for what they publicly argued.

[southofbloor]

Nice. I like your 'spin' on what I said. I would say re-read... um, but never mind.

So sad for those who have a differing opinions to all be summed up as bigoted, bitter, haters. So sad is their plight indeed.

There are many members of my family who have serious trouble with my 24 year relationship with my partner. But they love us and we love them despite that.

I do have trouble though with people who are working toward laws that limit rights for sections of the population based on their own religious beliefs, in a world that has many variations of religious beliefs - in this case its my particular group being attacked so I'm feeling this issue more strongly. I would describe those people a bigoted. But my father, mother, and great aunt who I love to bits I would call conservative.

[Zacha341]

Agreed. The misuse of, or direct goal of some religions has resulted in the killing and maiming of many, unarguably.

But, far more from those so imperious to consider themselves 'god', imposing their doctrine of the state upon the masses!

Umm let's see -- on the short list:

Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Gather Around One And All…an inquisition will get the answers you’re looking for. All these heathens and non-believers need to be introduced to the very inventive methods in the torture arena; from Constantine, to Charlemagne, to the Crusades, to the Inquisition, religions have killed, maimed and tortured their beliefs upon others since the time of antiquity.

[Zacha341]

Well stated. And I really respect your opinion. Interestingly so, there are people who while having gay family members have had to understand that their family members may, or may not represent every aspect of the gay or LGBT platform and agenda, and vise versa. This speaks to the non-uniformity of points of view; the cause for social justice on both sides. And as I stated earlier gays are not monolithic.

There's gay friends and family and then there's gay politics which may be another conflict [[within and outside of the community), in many areas.

There are many members of my family who have serious trouble with my 24 year relationship with my partner. But they love us and we love them despite that.

I do have trouble though with people who are working toward laws that limit rights for sections of the population based on their own religious beliefs, in a world that has many variations of religious beliefs - in this case its my particular group being attacked so I'm feeling this issue more strongly. I would describe those people a bigoted. But my father, mother, and great aunt who I love to bits I would call conservative.

[Scottathew]

Summarily demonizing everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater' is very intolerant IMO.

I don't feel that my comments were attempting to demonize the opposition. I was just noting that old people tend to be less tolerant, more racist, and more homophobic.

The gay people in the older generation hid. My grandfather didn't think he had friends who were gay because it was so taboo.

My main point was that there is generation on this earth right now that perpetuated and implemented a society with negros serving their needs that sat in the back of the bus, used different bathrooms, and couldn't drink form the same water fountain. That generation is more likely to hate people who are gay. That generation is dying at a rapid rate from natural causes. Old people tend to vote more, so a huge opposition to gay marriage is literally dying off, and those votes are being replaced by more tolerant and accepting people.

[southofbloor]

Well stated. And I really respect your opinion. Interestingly so, there are people who while having gay family members have had to understand that their family members may, or may not represent every aspect of the gay or LGBT platform and agenda, and vise versa. This speaks to the non-uniformity of points of view; the cause for social justice on both sides. And as I stated earlier gays are not monolithic.

There's gay friends and family and then there's gay politics which may be another conflict [[within and outside of the community), in many areas.

Cheers sir! And I respect yours. Similarly I don't hold every Christian responsible for the toxic power hungry platforms of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Newt Gingrich, though I do goad my Baptist sister about it whenever I get a chance.

The Aga Khan gave an excellent speech to Canadian Parliament last month on pluralism and the need to embrace and tolerate difference in a global diverse society. Worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqNckjlWk1g

[leapfrog]

Homosexuality is a choice just a like a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship.


Straight marriages don't need to have kids. It's their choice. But their doing the social structure of marriage correctly.

Wow, I'm not sure which I think is greater, your lack of biblical knowledge or your lack of sociology.....

[Zacha341]

I hear you. I was responding to the broader thinking out there of some whom demonizing those for simply holding a different opinion, who say similar things. Your specific comments shed more light in general on the subject.

The pressure of being called a 'hater' may make some agree to certain things while their hearts and minds remain unchanged. Everyone knows what they feel which may differ from what they show in public. Thanks.

I don't feel that my comments were attempting to demonize the opposition. I was just noting that old people tend to be less tolerant, more racist, and more homophobic.

[Thruster315]

Wow, I'm not sure which I think is greater, your lack of biblical knowledge or your lack of sociology.....

What I've always found distasteful about the bible thumping crowd is the denial of others that might not subscribe to the teachings of the bible. What's their take on how those people should feel other than according to their beliefs they're all going to hell?

Don't get me wrong. There are a LOT of good things the bible can teach us but to blindly accept a work written by man as the absolute word of God is arrogant and silly.

[Zacha341]

I will check out Khan's thoughts on the matter. Thanks.

Cheers sir! And I respect yours. Similarly I don't hold every Christian responsible for the toxic power hungry platforms of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Newt Gingrich, though I do goad my Baptist sister about it whenever I get a chance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqNckjlWk1g

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

There are many members of my family who have serious trouble with my 24 year relationship with my partner. But they love us and we love them despite that.

I do have trouble though with people who are working toward laws that limit rights for sections of the population based on their own religious beliefs, in a world that has many variations of religious beliefs - in this case its my particular group being attacked so I'm feeling this issue more strongly. I would describe those people a bigoted. But my father, mother, and great aunt who I love to bits I would call conservative.

I often feel that our "conservative" family members don't realize how good they have it. Would they be as accommodating if WE were actively working to suppress THEIR rights? I wonder. When I came out, my mother said that I should be glad that I wasn't disowned and was "allowed" to come home and visit. My reply was that SHE should be glad that I even considered coming home from time to time. She never really considered that acceptance was a two-way street.

[southofbloor]

I will check out Khan's thoughts on the matter. Thanks.

There is nothing in it on gay issues. He speaks to pluralism and respecting diversity on our planet. Have to say that Kahn is the leader I would most like to emulate. Was good to see Canadian leaders paying attention.