The right perspective on preservation

[Irvine Laird]

http://www.metromodemedia.com/blogs/...poris1125.aspx

This Metromode blog post by Michael Poris made my day.

Detroit bows to no city when it comes architecture and history. I cannot understand why the leadership in this region cannot see this as an economic edge. Even Edsel Ford's One D initiative--a brilliant plan for the region--seems to miss this point completely.

If I were to become Poris's "czar", one of my first acts would be to create a regional plan for historic interpretation and preservation for the purpose of economic promotion. We need to channel the entrepreneurial spirit of the people who built the landmarks we love today. When we demolish buildings like the Lafayette and Michigan Central Depot, we demolish the past, present, and future of our economic genius in Detroit. The people who are proponents of this have no foresight, no imagination, no sense--and no business being in leadership.

Thank you, Michael Poris, for finally getting right: Preservation is not a sentimental exercise; it is an economic genesis.

Let us flex these muscles that we have so long abused and neglected! Let us claim our past: That we are one of the single greatest world cities of the 20th century and that we will build on that heritage to be great again in the 21st century.

[Retroit]

If I were to become Poris's "czar", one of my first acts would be to...send the Detroit City Council, the DEGC, and the DDA to Siberia, where they would quietly "disappear".

[crawford]

Preservation is only key if you are trying to further harm downtown. Maybe create a giant abandoned Skyscraper National Park, which has been suggested.

If you actually want growth, you need to remove blight and create opportunities for development. Giant abandoned office buildings in a city with 40% office vacancy and no prospects for redevelopment for decades are not worthy of preservation, unless the structure in question is an absolutely extraordinary architectural gem.

[PSewick]

Giant abandoned office buildings in a city with 40% office vacancy and no prospects for redevelopment for decades are not worthy of preservation.

How long was Orchestra Hall vacant and decrepit? Or Book Cadillac hotel?

[Detroitnerd]

Crawford sounds out of touch.

[crawford]

Orchestra Hall was only vacant a few years.

Book-Cadillac was vacant for a while, but was only rebuilt with massive taxpayer funds, and has nothing to do with a market for hotels, restaurants or apartments.

If you want to subsidize the renovation of every vacant building downtown, it can be done, but I don't think the taxpayers will put up the billions to renovate properties, especially when it will just cause currently occupied buildings to become abandoned [[see Ponchatrain and Greektown hotels).

And Orchestra Hall and the Book are extraordinary buildings, not run of the mill.

BTW, their renovations caused tons of demolition. Orchestra Hall took out every neighboring building in the neighborhood for parking lots and a temporary park. The Book Cadillac now wants the abandoned buildings on Washington to be demolished.

[Novine]

"If you actually want growth, you need to remove blight and create opportunities for development."

Is that you George? DEGC has been on a demolition roll. How many new buildings have emerged from the rubble?

[crawford]

"If you actually want growth, you need to remove blight and create opportunities for development."

Is that you George? DEGC has been on a demolition roll. How many new buildings have emerged from the rubble?

Quite a few; you should head down from sprawlsville when you have a chance. Compuware, Ernst & Young, and Quicken, to name a few. None would be downtown absent demolition of vacant structures or unused space. Want more? Comerica, Ford Field, MOT, Wayne State expansion; the list goes on.

And the B-C took out two adjacent buildings, and is about to take out a third.

[Bearinabox]

Quite a few; you should head down from sprawlsville when you have a chance. Compuware, Ernst & Young, and Quicken, to name a few.

Compuware and Ernst & Young were both built on parcels that had sat empty for decades. There was no demolition immediately followed by new development. I don't think anyone is against redeveloping empty land. As for Quicken, they haven't built anything yet, and it's unclear if they ever will.

[Gsgeorge]

If you actually want growth, you need to remove blight and create opportunities for development.

Uh, hate to break the news crawford, but empty historic buildings ARE opportunities for development.

[crawford]

Uh, hate to break the news crawford, but empty historic buildings ARE opportunities for development.

I don't think you know the first thing about Detroit, Gsgeorge. There is no market for these buildings. Your choice is post-apocalyptic Skyscraper National Park or a revitalized downtown.

Please inform me of ONE recent non-massively taxpayer-subsidized downtown Detroit renovation. You can't. There are none.

[Gsgeorge]

Right Crawford. Even though I live and work in Detroit, I don't know the first thing about it. And you're the expert, hiding behind a keyboard in Brooklyn and supporting the corrupt quasi-political body that loves to knock down our buildings for the benefit of themselves and a few lucky contractors.

As for downtown renovations done by private co's -- let's try Kresge Bldg [[Kellifanos), Iodent Building [[Harrington), Orchestra Hall [[Fisher), Wright-Kay Building [[currently under renovation), Crosswinds community [[a number of historic townhomes were restored as part of this private project)... shall I go on?

[Gistok]

I don't think you know the first thing about Detroit, Gsgeorge. There is no market for these buildings. Your choice is post-apocalyptic Skyscraper National Park or a revitalized downtown.

Please inform me of ONE recent non-massively taxpayer-subsidized downtown Detroit renovation. You can't. There are none.

Sounds like someone doesn't understand the concept "HISTORIC TAX CREDIT"... or thinks of it only as "taxpayer subsidized".

Why not admit the obvious... you only understand building on an empty parcel... and nothing beyond that remotely interests you.

Frank Lloyd Wright once said something rather profound... "architecture is what future civilizations will judge our civilization by...." but in Crawford's world you'd have to go check out landfills to find his throwaway version of civilization...

[g-dub]

The "quick fix" mentality should have died with the 1980s. By now, Detroit should have realized that it doesn't have a lot going for it, except for what it has left. And the city should capitalize on whatever is left that still makes it unique. That is largely its current standing architecture. When I lived in the city for 5 years recently, I would spend my down time just driving around, looking at buildings. When my time was better spent, it was usually spent inside those buildings [[the inhabitable ones, at least) in some social or business capacity. I knew then and still maintain now that that what stands impressively is not just impressive to me, but to the rest of the world, at least on some level. And indeed the world does not care for parking lots, and neither does their money. What Detroit has is a collection of gems, mostly neglected, whose value has not nearly been yet realized. The city should halt all demolition of decent structures, and turn their energy towards marketing those structures in any way possible. The film industry already sees them as an asset, and we pretty much have those visionary people in our pocket, so why not go in for the kill and make Detroit a destination for an American architectural destination where you can truly take a step back in time and transcend the blandness of modernity, at least for a scene or two, either on screen or [[most preferably) in person?

Btw, I stopped in to Mongo's a few weeks back and was in pure bliss. Chicago [[my current home) has nothing like this, aside from the Green Mill. And, on a personal note, my grandfather gave A-Mon his first real job, which lead to his wife being able to open her beauty shop, which afforded the Mongos the ability to buy the current joint [[which I remember as Wax Fruit about 20+ years ago, which rivaled anything in NYC at the time in sheer coolness). Please support that place. Mongo remembered e and my sister and was super generous. Such a brilliant, hard-working man. Anyway, it's at the heart of all that is good about downtown and I hope a lot of people are enjoying it like we did. I can't wait to go back.

[Novine]

"Quite a few; you should head down from sprawlsville when you have a chance. Compuware, Ernst & Young, and Quicken, to name a few. None would be downtown absent demolition of vacant structures or unused space. Want more? Comerica, Ford Field, MOT, Wayne State expansion; the list goes on."

Can I get directions to the Quicken building so I can take photos the next time I drive in from sprawlsville?

As to your point, what exactly is your point? Most of the new development you listed has been subsidized with huge tax breaks and other incentives. From a description of the Compuware project:

"For example, Compuware Corp., which moved its headquarters from Farmington Hills to Detroit last year, received about $80 million in tax breaks to relocate in Campus Martius. The city also gave Compuware the property for its 15-story, $800-million building for $1. The tax breaks included $52 million for property taxes, $10 million in single business tax credits and $18 million in personal property tax savings on the building's equipment and fixtures."

Comerica Park and Ford Field were subsidized with hundred of millions of taxpayer dollars. Wayne State expansion was funded with government dollars. The issue isn't whether taxpayer dollars will be spent. The issue is whether those millions will be spent to demolish and subsidize new buildings or used instead to rehab existing buildings.

More importantly, if we compare the success of the rehab efforts versus the demolition efforts, there's a strong case to be made that those who have pursued the route of restoration have accomplished more with less government dollars than the handful of new developments that have emerged from the DDA/DEGC demolition efforts. Also, let's not forget all of the demolition failures, the lots scattered around downtown created by demolition that have failed to result in new development.

[PQZ]

If I were to become Poris's "czar", one of my first acts would be to...send the Detroit City Council, the DEGC, and the DDA to Siberia, where they would quietly "disappear".

So the DEGC and DDA staff that saved the Book Cadillac & the Kales; made Merchant's Row &Lofts of Woodward possible; provided $11 million in direct grants to historic buildings for facade work like Cliff Bells; is working to salvage the Metropolitan & the Vinton & the Globe Dry Docks & the Harmonie Club; provided incentives for the Argonaut; provided incentives for any number of residential projects like Willys-Overland & the Carola & Carlton & the Iodent & 55 Canfield & Canfield Lofts & 44 Amsterdam and 5200 2nd....

All that experience gets scrapped because you are pissy about two buildings?

Thats nice.

[PQZ]

As for downtown renovations done by private co's -- let's try Kresge Bldg [[Kellifanos), Iodent Building [[Harrington), Orchestra Hall [[Fisher), Wright-Kay Building [[currently under renovation), Crosswinds community [[a number of historic townhomes were restored as part of this private project)... shall I go on?

A little history lesson.

The Kresge builing has received tax abatements through DEGC.
Orchestra Hall was funded through donations, not through an economic model of reuse.The historic lighting along Woodward in front of Orchestra Hall was doen through the DEGC via the EDC.
The Wright Kay building received tax abatements and facade dollars through the DEGC/DDA.
The buildings restored by Crosswinds were buildings the City and DEGC acquired and mandated be restored by Crosswinds in exchange for vacant parcels through the EDC and City and new infrastructure constructed by the EDC.

You forgot to mention the $8 million spent by the DDA on the Detroit OPera House.

Shall I go on?

The truth is NO project, whether new build or renoavtion works in Detroit right now. Every single project you could point out has some sort of tax abatement or tax credit or tax-payer supported loan / grant or land write down as part of the its financing structure.

[Novine]

"The truth is NO project, whether new build or renoavtion works in Detroit right now. Every single project you could point out has some sort of tax abatement or tax credit or tax-payer supported loan / grant or land write down as part of the its financing structure."

Which is why the argument that demolition is necessary to create a site for private development has no basis in reality. Demolition Jackson's created enough vacant sites downtown. There's no need to add to the inventory. If all new projects, new construction or rehab, are going to be subsidized, then favor the projects that utilize existing buildings over those that insist on demolition.

[Gistok]

Thanks for the insight PQZ.... any idea what might going on at the United Artists Building?

[kraig]

"The truth is NO project, whether new build or renoavtion works in Detroit right now. Every single project you could point out has some sort of tax abatement or tax credit or tax-payer supported loan / grant or land write down as part of the its financing structure."

Which is why the argument that demolition is necessary to create a site for private development has no basis in reality. Demolition Jackson's created enough vacant sites downtown. There's no need to add to the inventory. If all new projects, new construction or rehab, are going to be subsidized, then favor the projects that utilize existing buildings over those that insist on demolition.

Feasibility/Cost Benefit Analysis. That's what companies are looking at when they're looking to develop in an area. Sometimes new construction is better, sometimes renovating an existing structure is better. While the DEGC does assist the developer, and very well I might add. It's up to the developer to decide if the project will be worth it to them. The DEGC can't make the developer want to develop an old building, they can simply offer the incentives and work with the developer as much as possible. At this point, barring any real development, it's better for the DEGC to get rid of the building than keep it.

It's all a matter of feasibility. If the State offered to give a casino license to anyone that would develop the Lafayette Building and/or the MCS you would have developers falling over themselves to rehab the buildings. See, feasibility.

[Novine]

"At this point, barring any real development, it's better for the DEGC to get rid of the building than keep it."

Which building Kraig? It's not a rhetorical question. Using this logic, every building that's not currently occupied [[and some that are) could be a demolition target. The funds being used by DDA for demolition are not slated exclusively for that purpose [[contrary to what was stated before). The DDA is choosing to divert those dollars for demolition with absolutely no return for that expenditure. Don't want to spend money mothballing buildings? Then find a productive way to spend it elsewhere on infrastructure or rehabbing occupied buildings.

[HazenPingree]

Orchestra Hall was only vacant a few years.

Book-Cadillac was vacant for a while, but was only rebuilt with massive taxpayer funds, and has nothing to do with a market for hotels, restaurants or apartments.

If you want to subsidize the renovation of every vacant building downtown, it can be done, but I don't think the taxpayers will put up the billions to renovate properties, especially when it will just cause currently occupied buildings to become abandoned [[see Ponchatrain and Greektown hotels).

And Orchestra Hall and the Book are extraordinary buildings, not run of the mill.

BTW, their renovations caused tons of demolition. Orchestra Hall took out every neighboring building in the neighborhood for parking lots and a temporary park. The Book Cadillac now wants the abandoned buildings on Washington to be demolished.

Well, we should be fair here. I believe that Detroit has subsidized every major non-casino development in the past 10 years - not just historic preservation projects!

[REL]

Crawford: "Please inform me of ONE recent non-massively taxpayer-subsidized downtown Detroit renovation. You can't. There are none"

Forgive me, but what is wrong with using tax dollars to renovate older or historic buildings? Tax dollars pay for plenty of things that the public can't or doesn't pay for as individuals, but greatly benefit the community. Isn't that what tax dollars are for [[schools, roads, disaster relief to name a few)?

[Irvine Laird]

Detroit is a world capital for engineering, so almost every initiative that seeks to draw investment to the region focuses on this asset. And it works. Almost every major global automotive concern has a base of operations here.

Other assets include our universities, natural resources, proximity to Canada, medical centers, Metro and Willow Run airports, etc. We've promoted all of these for good reason: They are indisputable assets that give us an edge if we leverage them properly.

What I haven't seen is the same kind of emphasis on our historic architecture as an economic asset. Detroit is a veritable hall of fame for early 20th century architects and architecture. We are nothing short of world class. So why is this not part of the package that we promote to the world? Is this not another edge that Detroit has over the Sun Belt and the West, not to mention Asia and India?

Look, I agree with the critics who say that we don't have the resources to preserve these buildings. We don't. However, I believe these buildings are vital to drawing economic resources back to Detroit if we are smart about the way we market them to the world. They are not a liability, they are a competitive edge.

[Stosh]

Detroit is a world capital for engineering, so almost every initiative that seeks to draw investment to the region focuses on this asset. And it works. Almost every major global automotive concern has a base of operations here.

Other assets include our universities, natural resources, proximity to Canada, medical centers, Metro and Willow Run airports, etc. We've promoted all of these for good reason: They are indisputable assets that give us an edge if we leverage them properly.

What I haven't seen is the same kind of emphasis on our historic architecture as an economic asset. Detroit is a veritable hall of fame for early 20th century architects and architecture. We are nothing short of world class. So why is this not part of the package that we promote to the world? Is this not another edge that Detroit has over the Sun Belt and the West, not to mention Asia and India?

Look, I agree with the critics who say that we don't have the resources to preserve these buildings. We don't. However, I believe these buildings are vital to drawing economic resources back to Detroit if we are smart about the way we market them to the world. They are not a liability, they are a competitive edge.

I'd agree that these buildings are architectural gems. But at some point we all need to face reality concerning these buildings. In there present form and function there's no need for them. There's a glut of office space in the region. The auto companies are elimatating engineering positions left and right.

Marketing them to business would require that there's a business looking to relocate here. And that also assumes that there's a call for a massive white collar workforce in these theoretical businesses.

I think the future for some of these buildings is residential, or perhaps even some sort of a live/work arrangement. And the key to all of this is to address the future use before the building goes dark. There may be a few buildings that are salvagable once left alone for a while, but not much. I think that preservation groups should pay more attention to retention of what's working now.