Where are the "Trade Schools" now that we need them?

**dguy4evr** · March-15-14, 10:25 AM

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2011/05...rce-committee/ A while back, [[a long, long, way back) I attended Wilbur Wright Trade School located on 12th. street [[Rosa Parks) and Grand River. I had to take two busses to get there, the Gratiot bus to the end of the line behind Hudson's, then I caught the Grand River bus at Fort and Griswold to 12th. street. The travel time was over an hour. I chose Wilbur Wright because it offered the best automotive curriculum in the state. I never regretted my choice as I received the best all round education in everything automotive. They had a chassis lab, engine lab, electrical lab, and a fully functional garage where the public could bring their cars in and have them serviced for only the cost of the parts. You were also required to take machine shop courses.
Not only that, they had great math and science teachers. [[A shout out to Mr.[[Sudsy) Lathers, my math teacher, the greatest teacher in the world!
What I'm getting at is, with all the kids either dropping out of high school or graduating from college with 50K and more in college loans and no job, we need to bring back the trade schools. Above, is a link to the address that Mike Rowe, star of the TV series, "Dirty Jobs" proposed to congress: [[Tried to post link here but it didn't work)
I am now working in an automotive testing facility where my 25+ years of turning wrenches was key to me getting hired. My machine shop experience enabled me to use my knowledge to fabricate fixtures for various tests we perform. Right now there is a shortage of people trained in CNC machining. Where are the schools that train the people that want to get into a trade without having to go to a university?

**Hamtragedy** · March-15-14, 11:07 AM

When the economy tanked and auto workers lost their jobs, and all the machine shops moved to China, there was an initiative thru community colleges to retrain a lot of the affected employees in, among other things, CNC machining. Macomb Community College still offers CNC training, but from an article I heard on the news the other day, Community College enrollment figures are drastically reduced even from a couple years ago, resulting in cut-backs.

I think another issue became, even with the reduced-cost training, most entry level CNC jobs are paying, what, a fraction of what said employee was used to making before the market tanked. Oddly enough, now that machine shops are realizing that cheap labor in China didn't translate to "skilled labor" the machine shops are moving back, but not to Detroit or Ferndale or Warren, but to 23 Mile and Hayes, so the job that used to pay 25/hr is now paying 13/hr and where the hell is 23 and Hayes.

Off the subject, Wilbur Wright's reputation during WWII was such that, even black students were recruited by the military to join the war effort for their mechanic and machine skills, including those required on airplanes [[Wilbur Wright, go figure!!). Also, if you're referring to a long time ago as being in the 80's or 90's was that Mr. Lathers a chunky bearded white-guy?, cuz we a had a "sub" at Renaissance for a long time who for a few semesters had his own math classes, but was low man on the scrotum pole, so he may have been bumped to Murray Wright.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-15-14, 11:14 AM

dg, I suggest that our educational system has become too rigid in its thinking. We want all students to go to college. But of course not everyone should nor wants to. Trades are just as important as 'college prep'. Probably much more important.

This rigidity needs to be broken. Your story is great. [[And I likewise remember an early math teacher as the greatest teacher in the world.)

The biggest benefit of charter schools in my mind is breaking the lock of the current 'big Education' and 'big Labor' on schools. Can you imagine a regular school district trying to create a Trade School? Do you think they could hire you? Probably not. You didn't take Education in college. So you're not worthy. And you probably aren't in the Union. No, let's use our seniority system and send Mr. C. Fingernails. He's never touched a wrench, but its his right to that job.

You ask where the schools are that train people for trades. I don't know. Is it all 'on-the-job'? Or are there good trade programs in high school that I don't know about. Have we left this field to 'ITT Tech' and other for-profit schools?

**Dan Wesson** · March-15-14, 11:15 AM

Trade schools were big when there was an economy to rebuild and men who were returning home from WWII/Korea intersected.

Do such conditions exist today and [[loaded question) who and what stands in the way?

**mwilbert** · March-15-14, 11:20 AM

http://michigan.gov/documents/MICHIG...TY_57080_7.htm

Not all of these are what I would call trade schools, but a lot of them are.

**Lowell** · March-15-14, 11:55 AM

There is Focus Hope and each of the Big 3 have UAW / Their Name training / retraining programs, for example UAW-Chrysler National Training Center.

**dguy4evr** · March-15-14, 12:07 PM

Hamtragedy:
Actually, a "long, long, time ago" was 1965-1967. So Mr. Lathers could indeed be the math teacher that you mention. During my sophomore year they opened Murray Wright. We had to walk from Wilbur Wright where we took our shop courses to Murray Wright where we had the academic classes. So yes he could be one and the same only he probably came from Murray Wright. And yes, he was a bearded white guy only not so chunky back then. But then, I was not so chunky back then!

**Dan Wesson** · March-15-14, 01:07 PM

My elementry school,grades k-4, were located in the Trombley Trade Building & School on Harper and Baldwin. Trombley Trade later became part of Kettering High. That too also required a walk across the Ford Freeway to the main Bldg.

I somewhat remember the older guys and machine shops back then.

Later a lot of classes geared toward Kettering students who weren't on the college track took place at the Trombley Bldg. Those classes were geared towards finding work when you graduated.

**Hermod** · March-15-14, 02:20 PM

When I went to Andrew Jackson Intermediate back in 1951-1953, you had to take a year of General Shop in the 7th grade and a semester of Machine Shop and a semester of Wood Shop in the 8th grade. You also took a year of Drafting in the 8th grade. All high schools had complete machine shops, wood shops, and print shops as well as large mechanical drawing class rooms for the non-college prep students. The most dedicated of the vocational students would go to Cass Tech where a diploma was an automatic ticket into the world of work.

**248lurker** · March-15-14, 03:34 PM

This seems to be a companion thread to the one recently posted about Marathon Oil. It makes me wonder if Marathon would have an easier time finding qualified CoD residents as employees if there was vocational education that was geared towards the jobs they want to fill.

I don't even think my school district even offers Vocational Auto any more. I think interested students may have to pursue it through the Oakland Technical Center.

**ddaydetroit** · March-15-14, 05:12 PM

I own a shop and finding skilled labor is almost impossible it took us 6 months to find 1 top notch welder that we could trust working on the high dollar equipment we repair.
When we put ads online we are lucky to even get one or two resumes worth looking at I also deal with many shops and shop owners and they are having the same problem finding non production CNC machine operators I see the help wanted signs all over. Wednesday March 12 I was in Oklahoma on business I drove pass a billboard sign that a local business had turned into a huge welders wanted sign it's that bad.
Yes there are many welders out there but the ones with good welding skills and work ethics have jobs and many out of work skilled welders that send me resumes we find out there is usually a good reason they are not working.
Where I went to high school we had a great weld and machine shop and some idiot years ago decided Utica high needed to get rid of the shop classes and put in computer labs everyone I know who took and did well in vocational welding and machine shop is in high demand making a decent living and did it without running up a high college tuition. I actually posted something about this about a month ago in the non-Detroit section

**dguy4evr** · March-15-14, 05:18 PM

Hermod:

I too, went to Jackson Jr. High, 1963-1965. Took wood shop and drafting. Mr. Burgess was our drafting teacher. I also took a print shop class there. Can't remember the other teachers name. I was in Mr. Braisted's class when President Kennedy was shot, he came in crying and sent us all home. Couldn't do that now days.

**douglasm** · March-15-14, 05:57 PM

I don't know about back in Michigan, but out here [[Washington) a lot of "trade school" training is cone on the community college level. With all the apple orchards out here, and their corresponding packing sheds and cold storage facilities, trained HVAC workers are hard to come by, so the local CC put together a course that has been very well received.

I wonder if one of the problems is that as things become more complex, the necessary training also has. Ddaydetroit's point about finding qualified top notch welders to work on "high dollar equipment" could point to the thought that a welder who was "qualified" 30 or 40 years ago couldn't come close to being qualified to work on the complex equipment now in use. The operating engineers union in Seattle has set up a large training area outside of Ellensburg that includes high rise cranes to train people. That wouldn't have happened 30 years ago.

**Hypestyles** · March-15-14, 06:02 PM

There should be a lot more trade schools in Detroit proper, and elsewhere in the region. I don't see why the various local/regional skilled trade associations have not "adopted" local, currently empty school buildings and set up their own middle/high schools and training centers for adults. Why not?

**Hermod** · March-15-14, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by dguy4evr

Hermod:

I too, went to Jackson Jr. High, 1963-1965. Took wood shop and drafting. Mr. Burgess was our drafting teacher. I also took a print shop class there. Can't remember the other teachers name. I was in Mr. Braisted's class when President Kennedy was shot, he came in crying and sent us all home. Couldn't do that now days.

Mr Bird-doo was my drafting teacher too. The woodshop teacher's name was Mr Nancarrow.

**Hermod** · March-15-14, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

There should be a lot more trade schools in Detroit proper, and elsewhere in the region. I don't see why the various local/regional skilled trade associations have not "adopted" local, currently empty school buildings and set up their own middle/high schools and training centers for adults. Why not?

When I went to Denby in the fall of 1953, as a part of our orientation we were told to choose a "track" as College Prep, Vocational, Commercial, or "General Education". In the 1960s, the term "tracking" became a dirty word in the civil rights movement. I believe that was the beginning of the decline for vocational and commercial high school education.

**dguy4evr** · March-15-14, 08:09 PM

Hermod:

That'd hilarious! We called him Mr. Birdshit too!!! I don't know if my woodshop teacher's name was Mr. Nancarrow or not but I do remember he had a special paddle made with holes in it to cut down on wind resistance when he paddled someone.

**rex** · March-15-14, 08:42 PM

Thats a good fucking question. Thats what Detroit really needs. Targeted education. Teach the basics, reading, writing and basic math but try to filter students into a trade. Kids from the suburbs whose parents have a little $$$ can afford to go to college and figure out what they want to do. Detroit should have secondary trade education. From the age 14 on teach them how to work on cars so they can make 75K a year as a mechanic or teach them plumbing or how to paint, teach them how to use lathes and operate a hilo, stuff like that. Teach them how to work in a kitchen and be successful somewhere and make 35-40 K a year
A few years ago I took networking classes at oakland community college with a bunch of kids from Pontiac who were in highschool. These were presumably top of the class students. I dont know but when you have students who are destined to fail, who arent succeeding on an academic track they need to push them into an employability track

**Hermod** · March-15-14, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by dguy4evr

Hermod:

That'd hilarious! We called him Mr. Birdshit too!!! I don't know if my woodshop teacher's name was Mr. Nancarrow or not but I do remember he had a special paddle made with holes in it to cut down on wind resistance when he paddled someone.

That was Nancarrow.

I think the 7th grade Gen Shop teacher was a Mr Felden.

**dguy4evr** · March-16-14, 07:31 AM

The schools, if they do wise up and open them, need to run them with real life experiences. At Wilbur Wright they had a working garage for the seniors. This gave them real experience in the real world dealing with rusted bolts and nuts and problems you deal with in the field. These schools could also include a sort of start up apprenticeship in whatever field they sign up for, be it plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanics, tool and die, or electrician. Maybe working as a helper in the field for school credits. Like the old co-op programs.

**313WX** · March-16-14, 10:33 AM

As another poster said, the reason there aren't many trade schools around any more these days is because the demand for them has changed. The days of graduating trade school and then walking straight into a job that pays a living wage are long gone.

People aren't going to pay good money out of their pockets, nor will the government spend the taxpayer's money, to pay for an education for jobs that either no longer exist or are in limited supply and pay poorly.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-16-14, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

As another poster said, the reason there aren't many trade schools around any more these days is because the demand for them has changed. The days of graduating trade school and then walking straight into a job that pays a living wage are long gone.

People aren't going to pay good money out of their pockets, nor will the government spend the taxpayer's money, to pay for an education for jobs that either no longer exist or are in limited supply and pay poorly.

I think you could say the same thing about the education we are providing right now, if you wanted to be depressing about the world.

I see jobs everywhere. Sure, things are tight right now, and we have significant economic challenges in how we are allocating income and capital. Nonetheless, I see jobs being done every day that require good trade skills. Just drive past Marathon and tell me there are no jobs. Enough jobs? OK, let's debate. But geez.

**SDCC** · March-16-14, 12:21 PM

Trade Schools
Are here, there, and everywhere; here in San Diego there are ads for trade schools on every bus and on every trolley car. All of these trade schools are Pell Grant eligible and every one of them is vying for that $5500.00 per year. Hell on my Facebook page, in the ads on the right side of the page, there is constantly an ad asking me “To old to return to school” – and this ad just like all the other ads – states there is $5500.00 waiting for you [[me).
Accreditation and FAFSA [[Pell grant) money is a slippery slope, a trade school for example, wouldn't need to be accredited by the Western Association of Colleges and Universities – WASC, to offer Pell grants to its students. Some of these schools are shady, and sort-of flim-flam students out of their Pell grant. For example, at San Diego City College, Pell grant money is directly dispersed to the students, at a non-traditional college, or trade school, some of these schools require that the entire grant amount be assigned to the school, with the student receiving zip.
Additionally there are innumerable traditional schools that offer certificate programs in the trades, cosmetology, or in health care.
Pell grants are now good for 6 years, a person could obtain one certificate after another. All that is required is a person maintains satisfactory progress, which is clearly defined and monitored by the schools.
Anybody can go to school to free, and there is every kind of school available – it’s the field they choose, or the certificate program they enroll in, that will decide their employment opportunity.
It takes weeks [[months) to get the FAFSA application downloaded and processed by the school – now is the perfect time to enroll for the fall semester.

**Hermod** · March-16-14, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by SDCC

Trade Schools
Are here, there, and everywhere; here in San Diego there are ads for trade schools on every bus and on every trolley car. All of these trade schools are Pell Grant eligible and every one of them is vying for that $5500.00 per year. Hell on my Facebook page, in the ads on the right side of the page, there is constantly an ad asking me “To old to return to school” – and this ad just like all the other ads – states there is $5500.00 waiting for you [[me).
Accreditation and FAFSA [[Pell grant) money is a slippery slope, a trade school for example, wouldn't need to be accredited by the Western Association of Colleges and Universities – WASC, to offer Pell grants to its students. Some of these schools are shady, and sort-of flim-flam students out of their Pell grant. For example, at San Diego City College, Pell grant money is directly dispersed to the students, at a non-traditional college, or trade school, some of these schools require that the entire grant amount be assigned to the school, with the student receiving zip.
Additionally there are innumerable traditional schools that offer certificate programs in the trades, cosmetology, or in health care.
Pell grants are now good for 6 years, a person could obtain one certificate after another. All that is required is a person maintains satisfactory progress, which is clearly defined and monitored by the schools.
Anybody can go to school to free, and there is every kind of school available – it’s the field they choose, or the certificate program they enroll in, that will decide their employment opportunity.
It takes weeks [[months) to get the FAFSA application downloaded and processed by the school – now is the perfect time to enroll for the fall semester.

Yes, but "the trades" used to be taught effectively in high schools. A vocational student who followed a vocational path in school ought to be able to graduate at age 18 with certificates showing proficiency and certification in one or two different trades.

**douglasm** · March-16-14, 04:45 PM

True, but the trades that you and I might have learned in high school are not really relevant to current work needs. When I graduated high school [[1966, GO EAGLES!) the guys in auto shop were working with a 1953 Plymouth. That would be fine for the time, but try to use that skill to fix my current car, with it's computers and whatnot. Most things are much more complex than they were "back in the day", and there isn't enough time in a school day to give adequate voc/ed training. A start, maybe, but not a to the point of being ready to meet many current job requirements.