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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by nain rouge View Post
    The idea that bankruptcy is a definite positive for Detroit strikes me as naive. In the long run, all bankruptcy actually does it make it harder for Detroit to borrow money. Any positive effects you might associate with bankruptcy are changes we could've made and made more effectively had Detroit not been forced to declare bankruptcy.
    No, they could not. The current deal with the banks on the swap debt could not have been reached without the bankruptcy--it almost wasn't reached with the bankruptcy. The changes in retiree benefits aren't final yet, but you can be reasonably sure that whatever they end up being, they wouldn't have been possible outside bankruptcy. Nor could the other proposed debt reductions, although again those aren't final so we will have to see how they turn out. But nonetheless I don't see how the balance sheet of the city without bankruptcy could have been anywhere near as good as it will be with bankruptcy. Which is the reason your assertion about Detroit's ability to borrow is probably also wrong--lenders care more about your actual financial condition than your past.

    If you are talking about management, staffing, and operational changes, I expect in general those could have been done outside bankruptcy, but of course they hadn't been. Maybe just bringing in the EM would have been sufficient.

  2. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwilbert
    Which is the reason your assertion about Detroit's ability to borrow is probably also wrong--lenders care more about your actual financial condition than your past.

    Sure, bankruptcy is all sunshine and rainbows. Hell, with the way you depict it, why shouldn't every city declare bankruptcy? Creditors cut you deals and continue lending to you like nothing ever happened.

    Or not.

    As a creditor, I'd imagine that you'd have much, MUCH tougher requirements for Detroit now. Detroit's population loss has yet to display any signs of bottoming out, and it's now proven that the state and federal government are only willing to go so far to bail Detroit out when it screws up financially. What's your incentive to float a loan so the city can fix streetlights on Fenkell?

    Individuals looking to start businesses in recovering areas will still be able to get their hands on loans, of course, but the city is certainly going to have a rougher go of it.
    Last edited by nain rouge; March-13-14 at 07:18 PM.

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic01 View Post
    Can anyone show me where it says move into city of Detroit?
    kevyn orr and puppeteer snyder's plan for the city of detroit is to get a larger tax base. so naturally, adding people into the city of detroit would be how to do that.

    bloomfield, southfield, warren, redford, livonia, taylor... these places do not have space for 50,000 people.

    this plan is like a guy trying to catch a unicorn with a butterfly net. a total distraction from the actual problems we have now, completely unrealistic. to throw this out as an actual idea makes me question snyders' mental competency.

    hes wasting his time on this crap, we're not going to get any bridge built. maroun won. at least the roads got fixed under granholm.

  4. #29
    GUSHI Guest

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    Yea bring immigrants to a market with hardly any jobs, how does that make sense? We have enough people on wel-fare. Only way to save Detroit is shrink it. My dad/mom came in 68, jobs were in surplus. Now there ain't really shit.

  5. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by compn View Post
    kevyn orr and puppeteer snyder's plan for the city of detroit is to get a larger tax base. so naturally, adding people into the city of detroit would be how to do that.

    A verbal plan or newspaper article makes it so? Again, show me the requirement...


    bloomfield, southfield, warren, redford, livonia, taylor... these places do not have space for 50,000 people.

    8336 people to only each of the 6 cities listed = maybe not room for 50,000 people, add another 10 cities to the list and it gets even more likely that if they were to come they'll spread out all over Metro-Detroit.
    Question - are there 50,000 move in ready homes in Detroit? (meaning needing very little repair or rehab) Any realtors on the board here? I'd like to hear some facts on the housing stock, not just opinions...
    Last edited by Vic01; March-14-14 at 03:07 AM.

  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by nain rouge View Post

    Sure, bankruptcy is all sunshine and rainbows. Hell, with the way you depict it, why shouldn't every city declare bankruptcy? Creditors cut you deals and continue lending to you like nothing ever happened.

    Or not.

    As a creditor, I'd imagine that you'd have much, MUCH tougher requirements for Detroit now. Detroit's population loss has yet to display any signs of bottoming out, and it's now proven that the state and federal government are only willing to go so far to bail Detroit out when it screws up financially. What's your incentive to float a loan so the city can fix streetlights on Fenkell?

    Individuals looking to start businesses in recovering areas will still be able to get their hands on loans, of course, but the city is certainly going to have a rougher go of it.
    Who says the city is having a rougher go of getting bond money for streetlight repairs due to the bankruptcy??
    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/p...e/-/index.html

    It may not be all sunshine and rainbows.... but it's sure a lot less bleak than the picture you paint....
    Last edited by Gistok; March-14-14 at 03:27 AM.

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by nain rouge View Post
    The truth is that people are secretly hoping that bankruptcy has destroyed the black power structure in Detroit. Don't lie - that's what most people in the metro area hope, even if they won't say it out loud.
    The pre-existing power structure in Detroit NEEDED to be destroyed since it was almost wholly and fully corrupt or incompetent. If that structure was a "black" one, then so be it. It changes nothing. I would also note that if the power structure in Detroit is defined as being black in nature, then that was just as much by the doing of black Detroit politicians (using race as a shield to deflect criticism or appeal to the voters) as it was by the negative perceptions of white suburbanites.

    Remember "Y'all's boy?" Remember Freman Hendrix being derogatorily referred to as "Helmut" to remind voters that he had a white mother? Remember Lonnie Bates and pretty much every single thing he said and did? The list goes on and on, it's freaking endless. Going all the way up to the latest generation, like George Cushingberry using the race card after what should have been a DUI stop.

  8. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by nain rouge View Post
    The idea that bankruptcy is a definite positive for Detroit strikes me as naive. In the long run, all bankruptcy actually does it make it harder for Detroit to borrow money. Any positive effects you might associate with bankruptcy are changes we could've made and made more effectively had Detroit not been forced to declare bankruptcy.

    The truth is that people are secretly hoping that bankruptcy has destroyed the black power structure in Detroit. Don't lie - that's what most people in the metro area hope, even if they won't say it out loud. The thought is Detroit will get more white investment after the bankruptcy. Maybe. But it's still a stupid way to go about business.
    [/COLOR]
    Completely true.

    The power structure needed to be destroyed. It was dysfunctional and self-serving. It did not help the citizens.

    Where you're wrong is that this has nothing to do with being a 'black' power structure. Its all about dysfunctional. Only a few wackos ever wanted to destroy the 'black' power structure. Most people just want good services for the majority-black citizens. Be it red, yellow, white, or purple.

    Summary: Don't let thoughts about racism cloud doing good for citizens.

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by nain rouge View Post

    Sure, bankruptcy is all sunshine and rainbows. Hell, with the way you depict it, why shouldn't every city declare bankruptcy? Creditors cut you deals and continue lending to you like nothing ever happened.


    Because they aren't eligible? Bankruptcy is a perfectly sensible path for cities with intractable debt problems, but there aren't so many cities in Detroit's position. And if your budget is only a bit out of balance, putting your fate into the hands of a bankruptcy judge might not be such an appealing option.

    As a creditor, I'd imagine that you'd have much, MUCH tougher requirements for Detroit now.
    We will see. I'm guessing it will turn out to mostly be your imagination.

    Detroit's population loss has yet to display any signs of bottoming out, and it's now proven that the state and federal government are only willing to go so far to bail Detroit out when it screws up financially. What's your incentive to float a loan so the city can fix streetlights on Fenkell?
    What was a lender's expectation previously? Detroit wasn't actually creditworthy before the bankruptcy, which is why the city had to do things like pledge casino revenue in order to float bonds.


  10. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by nain rouge View Post
    The original "Mexicantown", closer to Grand Boulevard, is showing serious signs of decay, as is Warrendale, the original home of the west side's Arab population. And let's not forget Chaldeantown near 7 & Woodward, now basically gone, replaced by a very healthy business district near 14 & Ryan.

    If anything, I've been noticing more immigrants flocking to South Warren and other struggling inner ring burbs. It's easier to sustain development there.
    Correct. Little discussed, but the technical "Mexicantown" is emptying out. Chaldeantown is gone. SW Detroit as a whole is still very Mexican, but families are mostly moving out to Melvindale, Lincoln Park, Taylor, Westland and the like. Springwells area is still very Mexican, but the original Mexicantown along Bagley is almost gone, and 2nd generation Mexicatown along Vernor near Clark Park and the church is dying.

    The real Detroit ethnic neighborhoods are in semi-crappy inner suburbs like Warren, Madison Heights, Westland and the like. Drive down Dequindre, Ryan, John R, Ford Rd, etc.

  11. #36

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    Welp, maybe I stand corrected. Maybe you can get away with declaring bankruptcy as a city relatively scot-free. Still, it'd be interesting to see how much money the banks lent vs. how much money the banks made in interest payments, derivatives, and etc. Maybe the banks still made a killing, or maybe there is inside pressure from the government to forgive bad debts issued during the last crazy years before the federal bailout.

    Either way, I feel we're not getting the whole story, though I understand why. Untangling all of these complex financial mechanisms is very difficult.

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by nain rouge View Post
    Welp, maybe I stand corrected. Maybe you can get away with declaring bankruptcy as a city relatively scot-free. Still, it'd be interesting to see how much money the banks lent vs. how much money the banks made in interest payments, derivatives, and etc. Maybe the banks still made a killing, or maybe there is inside pressure from the government to forgive bad debts issued during the last crazy years before the federal bailout.

    Either way, I feel we're not getting the whole story, though I understand why. Untangling all of these complex financial mechanisms is very difficult.
    One of the things I found was that the Detroit Lighting Department now uses a special state bonding authority to get bonds for the city... so it's not all a bed of roses either... I believe the state started this authority especially for distressed cities.

  13. #38

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    Because they aren't eligible? Bankruptcy is a perfectly sensible path for cities with intractable debt problems, but there aren't so many cities in Detroit's position. And if your budget is only a bit out of balance, putting your fate into the hands of a bankruptcy judge might not be such an appealing option.



    I beg to differ. Chicago's mayor just announced that he's going to be forced to double the property tax on Chicago homeowners to help pay for that cities underfunded pension obligations. Detroit is just the first major city to go bankrupt, more will follow. (sorry I don't know how to put quotations around a previous post)
    Last edited by Cincinnati_Kid; March-15-14 at 02:45 AM.

  14. #39

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    It's NOT just the Labor...they would bring cultural diversity. In Queens New York, they have Latinos, Orientals and Indopak sections. Lots of stores and restaurants. Same with other big cities. Greektowns (OK we have THAT) Chinatowns, Little Italies, and Hungarian and Poletowns with actual Poles. We just have Hamtramck anymore. We either need the coastal cities to flood from climate change, or we need a Cambodia situation, tragic as it Was, where the Boat People come to the D and remake it.

  15. #40
    GUSHI Guest

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    How about offering visa to the Ukrainians in Crimea. We have a Ukrainian Church in Hamtramck, Maybe another large of Ukrainians would help stabilize the area of Davidson and Conant or surrounding areas.

  16. #41

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    GUSHI, they'd never bother. Warren already has a "Little Ukraine" on Ryan, just south off I-696. Considering the real estate in Warren is cheap by American standards and the built environment already exists, why would you go to 6 Mile and Davidson?! Just check out this Google Street View: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4172...vdaqxsJZOQ!2e0 . Boarded up homes and a kid in a white t-shirt that feels the need to hide his face inside his shirt when the Google Camera rolls by. Don't get me wrong, there are good people in those neighborhoods, but there are also some overwhelming problems present.

    In fact, I feel like this idea of "magic immigrants" that will clean up our messes is borderline offensive. Why can't we clean up our own messes, or at least stop making new messes all the time?

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid View Post
    Because they aren't eligible? Bankruptcy is a perfectly sensible path for cities with intractable debt problems, but there aren't so many cities in Detroit's position. And if your budget is only a bit out of balance, putting your fate into the hands of a bankruptcy judge might not be such an appealing option.



    I beg to differ. Chicago's mayor just announced that he's going to be forced to double the property tax on Chicago homeowners to help pay for that cities underfunded pension obligations. Detroit is just the first major city to go bankrupt, more will follow. (sorry I don't know how to put quotations around a previous post)
    If you want to understand the difference between Chicago's situation and Detroit's, consider that people are seriously talking as if it might be possible to handle their pension problem by doubling Chicago's property tax, whereas no one was foolish enough to think that doubling Detroit's property tax would accomplish anything except the complete abandonment of the city. I'm sure some other cities will go bankrupt at some point--some already have. But to be as fiscally messed up as Detroit is a pretty high bar.

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