Ukraine/Crimea

**Bobl** · March-02-14, 04:14 PM

Not particularly well educated, but it appears to me that the whole Russia/Ukraine/Crimea story is:

Follow the money. Russia wants to maintain their naval base, continue their stranglehold on natural gas deliveries to Europe, restore lost influence in eastern Europe, and influence oil production and delivery from the Mideast.

Will this be a defining event for the future of Europe?
How will it affect us?
What will NATO do?

**rb336** · March-02-14, 07:00 PM

All depends...on the Crimea. The Crimea was a gift to the Ukraine and is historically Russian. The Russians have a long lease for the naval base. We have to see just how power mad Putin has become. Invading Ukraine would make him an international pariah. All Russian funds in the US and Western Europe would be frozen. Not just Russian state funds, but those of the oligarchs who bankroll Putin. We are talking about dozens of mega-millionaires and billionaires suddenly having no access to vast amounts of their holdings

**Gistok** · March-02-14, 08:46 PM

That defense "shield" system over Eastern Europe that was scrapped would definitely be revived...

A lot of nervous former Soviet republics may think twice about getting closer to the Russians.

The Tatars in the Crimea would be a group that Moscow better think twice about pissing off again. They're Muslims, and fierce. Could be another Chechnya all over again for Russia.

**Zacha341** · March-04-14, 12:29 PM

Does the USA desire to go to war over this? Historically, small regional conflicts usually proceed bigger wars. How are we [[with Kerry as a mouth-piece no less) attempting to call any shots as we deplete our military force?

Moreso, under a waffling president -- presenting as though we have a force of will. Or the means to dictate? Remember Yalta? This could blow up really bigger than any 'community organizing' partisan smoozing.

They [[the Russians) have to be laughing at John Kerry's silly threats: "We are not looking for confrontation...", "territorial integrity"... yah-dah contradictions.

Is this in our sphere of influence?

**rb336** · March-04-14, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

And how are we with Kerry as a mouth-peice be attempting to call any shots as we deplete our military force under a president waffling, yet presenting as though we have will or a way.

Remember Yalta? NO one seems too. And this could blow up really bigger, far bigger than any 'community organizing' partisan smoozing.

They [[the Russians) have to be laughing at John Kerry's silly threats... "we are not looking for confrontation...", territorial integrety"... yah-dah contradictions.

Is this in our sphere of influence?

please re-write this in a cogent manner.

**Zacha341** · March-04-14, 12:34 PM

I DID edit it [[as I was writing it) you must have read it in 20 seconds but your assessment skills are quite adept. Thank you. Now re-read. Or not.

Originally Posted by rb336

please re-write this in a cogent manner.

**rb336** · March-04-14, 02:12 PM

better, but how is Obama waffling on this?

Craig Ferguson did a good bit on it

**oladub** · March-04-14, 03:09 PM

The EU has a larger population, a larger GNP and is closer to Ukraine than is the US. It follows that the US should consider taking the lead of of the EU. However, as Ukraine is not a ally of the US and has no defense treaties with the US, there is no need to even play a minor role to the EU. Yet, today we have a photo of SOS Kerry handing out $1B to Ukraine. We just cut our veterans' pensions but had a spare $1B to watch disappear in Ukraine. Meanwhile, what has the EU contributed? The US should stop doing chores and paying bills for the EU.

**rb336** · March-04-14, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

The EU has a larger population, a larger GNP and is closer to Ukraine than is the US. It follows that the US should consider taking the lead of of the EU. However, as Ukraine is not a ally of the US and has no defense treaties with the US, there is no need to even play a minor role to the EU. Yet, today we have a photo of SOS Kerry handing out $1B to Ukraine. We just cut our veterans' pensions but had a spare $1B to watch disappear in Ukraine. Meanwhile, what has the EU contributed? The US should stop doing chores and paying bills for the EU.

Bitched about if you do, bitched about if you don't

**oladub** · March-04-14, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

Bitched about if you do, bitched about if you don't

True enough about Obama being blamed by big government Republicans who are demanding up to and including US military action on one hand and constitutional libertarians and some progressives who don't want to fan the fires of a new cold war on the other. I'm just being consistent about wasting money and interfering in others nations' affairs. Yesterday's Rasmussen poll showed only 37% of Americans wanted to get involved politically in this matter. When John Kerry gave away $1B like a drunk fairy, he involved us.

**Jimaz** · March-04-14, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

...When John Kerry gave away $1B like a drunk fairy, he involved us.

That was so unkind to drunken fairies.

**NickCharles** · March-04-14, 08:10 PM

Based on what I'm seeing in most of the posts, maybe this topic is inappropriate for discussion in this forum.
Great goddamighty.

GUSHI · March-04-14, 09:45 PM

Europe borders were pretty much subject to change, always have been always will, Its Ukraine not currently Russian land, what Russia is doing is b/s.

Originally Posted by rb336

All depends...on the Crimea. The Crimea was a gift to the Ukraine and is historically Russian. The Russians have a long lease for the naval base. We have to see just how power mad Putin has become. Invading Ukraine would make him an international pariah. All Russian funds in the US and Western Europe would be frozen. Not just Russian state funds, but those of the oligarchs who bankroll Putin. We are talking about dozens of mega-millionaires and billionaires suddenly having no access to vast amounts of their holdings

**Zacha341** · March-05-14, 06:27 AM

$1B here, $1B there, the great ones have spoken and proceeded. What's the big deal? 'Buy what you want, beg [[take) for what you need' mentality here... it'll all work out as we're told.

Furthermore, do as you're told. It's good for you!

Originally Posted by oladub

Yet, today we have a photo of SOS Kerry handing out $1B to Ukraine. We just cut our veterans' pensions but had a spare $1B to watch disappear in Ukraine. Meanwhile, what has the EU contributed? The US should stop doing chores and paying bills for the EU.

**coracle** · March-06-14, 09:25 AM

From lucianne.com 03.06.2014

**Zacha341** · March-06-14, 03:33 PM

Now I hear we are going to 'isolate' Russia for their actions! They have to be re-doubling with laughter at this point! But actually no one is laughing. This is very serious... it will be interesting to see how far some will go around-the-corner with our leaders on this.

**oladub** · March-06-14, 05:54 PM

Some thought is being put into accelerating the development of export LNG and oil ports so Europe wouldn't be as dependent on Russian gas and Russia would not get as high of a price for its gas as competition was brought in. Of course fracking and exporting in the service of Europe's economy would raise gas prices here which are presently giving us an edge in energy based manufacturing costs resulting in jobs and would increase our home heating prices. No matter, now our leaders have an excuse to further subsidize the petroleum industry.

**Zacha341** · March-06-14, 07:59 PM

Course it could all be a grand 'distraction'.....

GUSHI · March-06-14, 10:17 PM

Ww3, wasnt another world war started by slavs? Hmmm, i think so.

**Danny** · March-07-14, 08:52 AM

The pro-Soviet folks who live at the Crimea Peninsula wants to be annexed to Russia. To the SOVIE---[[ I-mean Russians) want their naval base the access to the Black Sea so they can touch the middle Middle East.

I can see it now, COLD WAR II!

**oladub** · March-07-14, 09:34 AM

I don't feel any sense of there being a national emergency. Yet President Obama declared a national emergency yesterday in order to legislate sanctions against Russia citing emergency executive powers reserved for some horrendous situation in which Congress cannot act. Such a situation does not exist as far as I know. This constituted a dangerous precedent because if a president can whimsically give him/herself legislative powers Congress is just window dressing.

edited to add-
The press of course did not address this but look at the last two sentences of paragraph 1 of the executive order.

“I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with this threat. I hereby order:”

http://mashable.com/2014/03/06/us-sa...ussia-ukraine/

**Zacha341** · March-07-14, 12:17 PM

It's getting increasingly obvious that the mainstream media is giving a great deal of this a pass.

**coracle** · March-07-14, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

It's getting increasingly obvious that the mainstream media is giving a great deal of this a pass.

Especially this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...mbezzling.html

**gnome** · March-09-14, 02:32 AM

Putin: knock, knock
Barry: who's there?
Putin: Crimea
Barry: Crimea who?

Putin: Crimea river.

**Papasito** · March-14-14, 09:30 AM

The Chinese government is publicly siding with Russia on the crisis in Ukraine, and that is very bad news for the United States. Not only does it mean that the U.S. is essentially powerless to do anything about the situation in Ukraine, it also means that Russia and China are starting to understand how much economic leverage that they really have.
http://www.econmatters.com/2014/03/will-china-have-russias-back-over.html

USA vs Russia & China =

Our country is broke. No one will loan it money to fight a lopsided war when we likely will not be able to pay it back.

Our country is an import society. We don't make anything. We buy our ammunition and military equipment from other countries. China needs only to stop shipping to us for the US to collapse.

Our leaders are weak. Compared to battle hardened Russian and Chinese leaders, our flim flammy politicians are a joke.

This is a bad time for America to risk a world war. Better to shut up and sit back then to pick a fight they can't win.

Russia has been embarrassing the USA on the world stage, and this is going to be another example.