"Cities don't stand still, and the cities that stand still are Detroit"

[iheartthed]

It's a crass remark but raises a good question: why does change in Detroit take so freaking long? It seems like the only things that get planned, built, changed with any type of expediency are sports stadiums and casinos.

Mitchell Moss, a professor of urban policy and planning at New York University's Wagner School of Public Service, said the city has witnessed an enormous recovery since 2001, and the greatest change has been felt in Brooklyn, which has drawn newcomers because of its housing, access to Manhattan and improved safety.

"Cities don't stand still, and the cities that stand still are Detroit," Moss said. "So if Spike Lee wants to see a place where there is no gentrification, he'll also find a place where there are no investments. Obviously, he's someone who knows how to make a movie but doesn't know anything about cities."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/us/new...ion/index.html

[DetroitPlanner]

It maybe crass but it is true. For most of the world Detroit is not Campus Martius, it is the Packard Plant.

[313WX]

It maybe crass but it is true. For most of the world Detroit is not Campus Martius, it is the Packard Plant.

How much has downtown/midtown changed since 2001?

[bailey]

How much has downtown/midtown changed since 2001?

Is this rhetorical?

[bailey]

It's a crass remark but raises a good question: why does change in Detroit take so freaking long? It seems like the only things that get planned, built, changed with any type of expediency are sports stadiums and casinos.

because there is no reason to live in Detroit proper and the wealth of the entire World's "First City" isn't concentrated within it like in NYC?

I would disagree that things haven't been changing pretty fast for a State that has been in an economic depression for 15 years. Look at the pace of change in Ferndale, RO, the GPs...etc.

I also would point out that the CBD and shit load of stuff looks a hell of a lot different since 2001. Walk Jefferson from Hart Plaza to GCP and tell me stuff hasnt changed.

[313WX]

Is this rhetorical?

No.

There haven't been any large scale changes even in downtown/midtown since 2001. There have been few to no new skyscrapers, there are still numerous abandoned structures, retail is still severely lacking and the place is essentially a ghost town after sunset.

Any improvements have been extremely slow and gradual that, if you blinked, you would miss them.

[bailey]

No.

There haven't been any large scale changes even in downtown/midtown since 2001. There have been few to no new skyscrapers, there are still numerous abandoned structures, retail is still severely lacking and the place is essentially a ghost town after sunset.

Any improvements have been extremely slow and gradual that, if you blinked, you would miss them.

So, Campus Martius existed in 2001? Dan Gilbert had ...what? 20 buildings? packed with QL kids in 2001? Ford Field existed in 2001? Book Cadillac existed in 2001? I mean really?

Sure it's slow... but c'mon,I'm not disagreeing that Detroit is far from being a "real" city.. but again, for one in a city and a state with something like 25% U6 unemployment... what the hell do you want?

[rb336]

No.

There haven't been any large scale changes even in downtown/midtown since 2001. There have been few to no new skyscrapers, there are still numerous abandoned structures, retail is still severely lacking and the place is essentially a ghost town after sunset.

Any improvements have been extremely slow and gradual that, if you blinked, you would miss them.

take someone who has last seen the area in 1999. Drive them down Woodward and try to tell them there hasn't been substantial change. Change doesn't have to be new skyscrapers. Skyscrapers make economic sense only in dense developments

[poobert]

Nonsense. We spent the last decade or so disemboweling a decent chance at nascent mass transit.

We still have this mentality that the next big mega block project [[stadia, casionos) is going to save us. Things have indeed changed around here, but the change seems to reach us about 10 - 20 years after the rest of the country. We're extremely provincial and insular. The attitude is still "love it or leave it" and look at how well that has worked. I'm of the belief we could have saved this region before the housing bubble but that it's too late now, despite the incremental change we've seen [[trend toward urban living, willingness to elect new leadership in the city, friendlier city/suburban relations).

[bailey]

Nonsense. We spent the last decade or so disemboweling a decent chance at nascent mass transit.

We still have this mentality that the next big mega block project [[stadia, casionos) is going to save us. Things have indeed changed around here, but the change seems to reach us about 10 - 20 years after the rest of the country. We're extremely provincial and insular. The attitude is still "love it or leave it" and look at how well that has worked. I'm of the belief we could have saved this region before the housing bubble but that it's too late now, despite the incremental change we've seen [[trend toward urban living, willingness to elect new leadership in the city, friendlier city/suburban relations).

legit bitch re transit... but to rb's and my point, time travel someone forward from 1999 to today and you really think that person isn't going notice positive change?

[dmike76]

Did anyone read Spike Lee's comments to which Mitchell Moss is responding? I've heard the same comments mentioned at a Model D Speaker series [[minus the expletives).
http://www.freep.com/article/2014022...gentrification

[DetroitPlanner]

How much has downtown/midtown changed since 2001?

It has changed quite a bit, but that is not what his audience thinks or knows.

In order for cities to be viable lively places they must be innovating changing and growing. While this is true for a few square miles in and around downtown, it is not true of the rest of the City or the metropolitan area. That is the Detroit that most of the world thinks of. They have no idea who Gilbert is. Quicken? Yes. Gilbert? No. Do they know Quicken is in Detroit? I am willing to bet most think it is in New York or Silicon Valley.

[rb336]

There are many things "real New Yorkers" dislike about how NYC has changed. For one thing, cost of living. An apartment building in Bay Ridge where I lived was reasonable - $650/month for one bedroom. A one bedroom on the fourth [[walk-up) floor was listed for over $2000/month back in November. That is insane. I can't imagine what is going on in Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, Cobble Hill and Brooklyn Heights.

Another thing is the Disneyfication of Broadway and the influx of tourist-friendly eateries.

[mwilbert]

I don't think I would characterize Detroit as standing still, but I can see how a person might see it that way. The net progress in the city is a lot smaller than the amount of change because there are multiple trends that are moving in different directions.

Poor people across America, including Detroit, are getting relatively poorer, and Detroit has lots of them.

Middle-class people have been leaving Detroit in large numbers [[just about done now, I think).

Physical retail is in serious decline everywhere, including Detroit. People expecting to see some kind of significant retail revival are kidding themselves.

Cooperation with outside entities is much improved in some areas. Cobo. DIA. The zoo. Belle Isle. The change from twenty years ago is rather substantial.

A growing subset of people and businesses are increasingly seeking out urban locations, true all over, but only in the initial stages in Detroit, for reasons that everyone on this forum knows. The big difference between now and the last twenty years is that it looks like we are almost at the point where new unsubsidized residential development will be possible in the greater Downtown area, and when that happens you will start to see more rapid change.

So what you have seen up until now is something that looks like one step forward, two steps back when you look at the city as a whole, but real progess in specific areas--Corktown, for instance, looks better than it did when I was a kid, as best I can recall. Certainly better than it did when I was a young adult.

If the regional economy can stay reasonably healthy, the EM can get the city's financial situation under control, and the city administration can provide a modestly higher level of services than people in Detroit have been accustomed to, I would expect actual noticeable forward progress in the next decade, probably even noticeable by professors in NYC. More functional regional institutions, like a working RTA, would be a bonus, but aren't a requirement.

[hortonz]

The headline should have read: "Mitchell Moss, An Educated Fool From An Uneducated School Has Advice For Detroit" Contrary to popular opinion, Detroit has Not been standing still. Like other Rust-Belt cities it is fighting the tide of globalization that has led to the destruction of America's manufacturing base and middle class, destroyed the family farm and replaced it with industrial agriculture and transferred all of the accumulated wealth from the American Heartland to the playgrounds of the Top 1%: New York, San Francisco, Boston etc.

[DetroitPlanner]

You need to look at it in the context of who the average reader who was the intended target. What we need is to get more wins out there in the stage of national and world public opinion.

What we do have to sell however is often tempered by those who come here and think, "yeah downtown looks good, but get a load of the rest of the City and many of the other areas that surround it." You can't hide all of the empty factories, housing, or stores. You can't hide the potholed roads or the legions of people waiting for buses.

We are now only approaching some of the issues that most other cities have of increasing rents pushing out long-time residents that Spike Lee and others have mentioned in these articles. Warrendale ain't Williamsburg. Brightmoor ain't the Bronx.

[ABetterDetroit]

What we need is to get more wins out there in the stage of national and world public opinion.

Nothing more true could be said.

Whatever you support, it needs more money, and the above is how to get it.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I think it would be beneficial for everyone in Detroit to not care what anyone else thinks. Low self esteem is not keeping us down. Even the condescendingly "positive" article drive me nuts, you know the ones to the affect, "Even in the ruins of Detroit a [[business/church/artist/whatever) sees hope...". We should build, grow, change or who knows what because it's what we want to do. I'm overweight; I will never lose a pound because someone else wants me to. The rest of the world is welcome to come to Detroit, but I don't put too much stock in what other people say. Also, most people who use Detroit as either an adjective or point of comparison is doing so with an agenda beyond Detroit, political or otherwise.

[ABetterDetroit]

I think it would be beneficial for everyone in Detroit to not care what anyone else thinks. Low self esteem is not keeping us down.

Agree with your opinion of self esteem.

But and a big one, being associated with failure, ruin, falling population and for that matter bankruptcy is doing nothing for us at all, zero. If having a crap reputation as a city on the world stage paid dividends Detroit would be rolling in it.

Its about power, political power in Washington and Lansing and with leaders around the country. Having a shit reputation gets people to turn their backs on you, make excuses that are not acurate, basically say "fuck them" for whatever reason they want to fit that logic. It's time to change Detroits perception as we make a comeback and make leaders and polititions want to be part of it.

[Gistok]

legit bitch re transit... but to rb's and my point, time travel someone forward from 1999 to today and you really think that person isn't going notice positive change?

OK Bailey... you live in GP... tell me you haven't seen the 48224 zip code go to hell?? Home values went from 100K average down to 15K and less [[depending on area of the zip code).

Morningside has been decimated, EEV is struggling... Cornerstone Village [[Balduck Park area) is a basket case with 4 murders within 4 blocks of the park in the past year.

And you think things are OK??

Granted they look rosey when you're going down Woodward... but venture too far off of downtown and midtown... and it's depressing...

Since 2001 the last of the middle class has pretty much has exited the city... and outside of say 10% of the city and its better neighborhoods... the other 90% has gotten worse...

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

ABetterDetroit, I think I see where our thought processes diverge. Yes, a great reputation can enhance political power in Lansing and Washington, economic power on Wall Street, or status in cultural references. But I don't think any of that really controls our future [[or caused our past). Our problems will not be fixed by outside forces. As I have said many times, if Washington wrote us a trillion dollar check [[which, of course, could never possibly happen), we would still have all of our social problems, and they are what keep our people down. Everything else is just symptoms. That is why I think it is pretty irrelevant, if sometimes annoying, what other people say about us.

[Scottathew]

I'm not too concerned about Spike Lee's comments. He's bitching the the place is getting nicer and that it wasn't nice when poor minorities lived there. He perceives that the city is doing a better job protecting the area now, when in reality there's less crime because there's less poverty. But it's not like the people there got richer, they just got replaced.

As to the Downtown\Midtown Detroit now vs. 2001 argument, it's a world different.

I started working in Downtown in 2011, and even the change since 2011 is amazing. The Campus Martius to Hart Plaza area is buzzing with foot traffic. Business are opening up. A 10 story parking garage has been built. Retail is starting to return. Towers are being renovated for residential space. Rent is soaring as supply struggles to keep up.

Now it's time to see positive trends in the neighborhoods.

If Duggan keeps his promises, 2014 will be the year that the bleed stops, and future years will be the start of an upward trajectory.

[ABetterDetroit]

MikeyinBrooklyn I will tell you that your perspective is often refreshing because of a moving forward approach with patience. Patience is not one of my better virtues and I always admire it in others. I would like to continue the debate if your willing to indulge me. Would you think that a city like Boston that managed to get 7 billion federal dollars for a project like the "Big Dig" is at all relevant to its reputation leading to more political muscle to win those federal dollars? When the the federal transportation secretary has to make multiple trips to Detroit to chip in 25 million on M1 rail and federal support for any kind reginal transportation system seems weak at best, I often think Detroit is short changed by its reputation. "More wins out there" as DP stated will lead to "more logs on the fire" IMO

[rb336]

those are very good points

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

ABD, of course I would be happy to talk about these things further. And I appreciate your words. I will make a few points below. Also, I have included part of the wikipedia blurb about the Big Dig at the bottom of this post.

First point: about political clout. Michigan has two Senators with a combined half century of tenure, and two area House members are the longest and fourth longest serving members in history. Unfortunately for those wanting to bring home the bacon, our Carl Levin [[and I think this is a positive) has dedicated himself to foreign affairs, defense and regulatory committee work for the bulk of his career. He has never had much say in transportation or appropriations work, unlike Ted Kennedy, who did, and focused much of the largesse on Massachusetts. I think that had at least as much of an impact on it as any perception of Boston as "better" city than Detroit. In fact, when they began lobbying for the Big Dig, Detroit had about 80% more people than Boston. Do not forget as well that the Big Dig was not a mass transit project, but was funded through normal highway funds, which are much more plentiful than federal transit funding [[a topic I am not trying to bring up here).

Second point: of course it would be great if we had some other person or entity to subsidize light rail, BRT, commuter rail, better buses & stations and perfectly smooth and sound roads and bridges. But perfect transit will have at best marginal impact on Detroit's worst problems [[although they would make downtown sparkle). Our most vexing problems are the several hundred thousand residents that lack substantive education, a job, or abstinence from drugs and alcohol. I think Lansing allowing money to follow Detroit kids to the best school they can get into, including religious schools or suburban schools, is infinitely more beneficial to the future of Detroit than any amount of money for the RTA [[although I do hope they approve that money).

Third point: yes, we are shortchanged by our reputation. That is reflected in the "Imported from Detroit" slogan: living and working in Detroit is regarded by some as more exotic than a place across the ocean with a different language and culture. Chrysler using that slogan [[oddly, since it was then partly owned by an Italian automaker; of course Chrysler is now foreign automaker doing part of their business here), was just a way of trying to turn a bad rep into a positive. People and businesses here I think are better off just getting on with their work and their lives. Fretting about destructively mean comments by writers and pundits and politicians, or condescending if well-intentioned pity or fascination gains us nothing. Buying or improving your house, raising good kids, and building and running profitable businesses is a better and truer answer to everyone else. If you are trying out for the basketball team, and you can't make a free throw to save your life, and the other kids make fun of you, I think you are better off practicing your free throws than complaining to the coach that the other guys are jerks. And, frankly, since you can't control what others will say or write anyway, why bother caring?


As for the Big Dig, I am overjoyed a similar "gift" wasn't given to Detroit. And it really didn't add transportation infrastructure! It just moved it. Imagine Robert Ficano decided to dig a tunnel...
The Big Dig was the most expensive highway project in the U.S. and was plagued by escalating costs, scheduling overruns, leaks, design flaws, charges of poor execution and use of substandard materials, criminal arrests,^[2][3] and one death.^[4] The project was originally scheduled to be completed in 1998^[5] at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion [[in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006).^[6] However, the project was completed only in December 2007, at a cost of over $14.6 billion [[$8.08 billion in 1982 dollars, meaning a cost overrun of about 190%)^[6] as of 2006.^[7]The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it will not be paid off until 2038.^[8] As a result of the deaths, leaks, and other design flaws, the consortium that oversaw the project agreed to pay $407 million in restitution, and several smaller companies agreed to pay a combined sum of approximately $51 million.