Tesla, Panasonic and a new battery factory

[renf]

Reports in the morning newspapers suggest that Panasonic and Tesla may spend several billion to build a “gigafactory” to produce lithium-ion batteries. They are reported to be looking at sites in the Southwest. Is there any chance that Gov. Snyder and his team will convince Tesla and Panasonic to locate in the greater Detroit area? It would help his reelection campaign.

[DetroitPlanner]

123 systems has capacity in Livonia and Muskegon for this.

[dmike76]

Unfortunately, they chose four finalists in the southwest.

[Hermod]

Unfortunately, they chose four finalists in the southwest.

Where is the Tesla main assembly plant?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Where is the Tesla main assembly plant?

Fremont, CA. In the former GM/Toyota "NUMMI" plant

[Hermod]

Fremont, CA. In the former GM/Toyota "NUMMI" plant

Precisely. The battery is the heart of the car. Why would they want their battery plant two-thirds of the way across the country?

[Pickford-Bentler]

A huge solar power field is part of the proposed plant design, thus making the southwest an ideal location. And then Musk would also want it close to the Mexican plants that will feed subcomponents to this point of final battery pack assembly.

[Pickford-Bentler]

The plants in Michigan were getting cells from Korea. The battery is a case of hundreds of 3.7 volt wired in series.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...n-battery1.htm


I believe that Musk will be making cells on location.

[JBMcB]

Interesting:

http://www.sfgate.com/business/artic...rs-5263864.php

[DetroitPlanner]

A huge solar power field is part of the proposed plant design, thus making the southwest an ideal location.

Like this one at the CMAX/Electric Focus plant?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2799...-2crnczkWQ!2e0

[Pickford-Bentler]

Best plant in the USA, IMO.

However, Musk has made many public statements denigrating the engineering acumen of the D3. And the southwest does have more day of 100% sunshine than Michigan.

So I am basing my opinion on how I perceive Musk thinks.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

More Tesla news: Not a Detroit investment, and not a battery plant, but they bought a Grand Rapids area tool and die shop:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...d-die-heritage

Frankly, since the anti-free-enterprise Michigan GOP made Tesla's business model illegal in Michigan, I'm surprised that they made any investment in Michigan at all. I do like this exchange:

Asked by a reporter whether he would consider setting up an assembly plant in Michigan, Tesla-founder Musk responded: "It's not out of the question. Maybe Michigan shouldn't stop us from selling cars here. That would be a nice gesture." Musk was referring to a 2014 law that bars Tesla from selling vehicles directly to consumers.

It seems the FTC doesn't like the Michigan law either:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...esla/27122673/

[maverick1]

Best plant in the USA, IMO.

However, Musk has made many public statements denigrating the engineering acumen of the D3. And the southwest does have more day of 100% sunshine than Michigan.

So I am basing my opinion on how I perceive Musk thinks.

That's funny since his company has been recruiting engineers from Detroit like crazy.

[noggin]

Michigan also is in the highest third for electricity rates in the country. Not exactly an attraction for a battery plant.

[emu steve]

One thing I've wondered, not about making the batteries, but the feasibility of solar cells [[and batteries) in other parts of the country [[e.g., the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, etc.) besides places like CA, AZ, FL, etc.?

Is the key factor the percentage of sunny or mostly sunny [[i.e., not cloudy) days? Does sunny and 50 degrees work well or does it need to be more 'sun beltish' - bright sun?

[Onthe405]

One thing I've wondered, not about making the batteries, but the feasibility of solar cells [[and batteries) in other parts of the country [[e.g., the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, etc.) besides places like CA, AZ, FL, etc.?

Is the key factor the percentage of sunny or mostly sunny [[i.e., not cloudy) days? Does sunny and 50 degrees work well or does it need to be more 'sun beltish' - bright sun?

Solar cell energy is captured by the sun's light, not heat. However, the southern region of the US still has two advantages in this area--neither directly related to temperature. The first is there are generally fewer overcast days. Secondly, being closer to the Equator, the sunlight is more direct. Even during Summer in the Northern Hemisphere, the light rays are still shorter [[more direct) at the lower latitudes than they are at the higher ones.

As such, I'm not certain what kind of overall return on investment northern European countries like Germany have gained from offering incentives to residents & businesses to install solar panels. I believe the German government has been both offering subsidies and manipulating utility rates upward in order to eventually achieve energy independence and freedom from fossil & nuclear electricity. Since projects like this are so long-term, the ROI [[if any) is probably difficult to measure at any given point along the way.

At this point, advancing battery [[and related energy storage) technology is more important than renewable sources of generating energy--for the very question you are posing. If we could somehow store that unused sunny/windy day energy for cloudy/calm days, it would open the door to innumerable benefits

[gvidas]

full size: http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/map_p...km_dec2008.jpg

from: http://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html

[emu steve]

Solar cell energy is captured by the sun's light, not heat. However, the southern region of the US still has two advantages in this area--neither directly related to temperature. The first is there are generally fewer overcast days. Secondly, being closer to the Equator, the sunlight is more direct. Even during Summer in the Northern Hemisphere, the light rays are still shorter [[more direct) at the lower latitudes than they are at the higher ones.

As such, I'm not certain what kind of overall return on investment northern European countries like Germany have gained from offering incentives to residents & businesses to install solar panels. I believe the German government has been both offering subsidies and manipulating utility rates upward in order to eventually achieve energy independence and freedom from fossil & nuclear electricity. Since projects like this are so long-term, the ROI [[if any) is probably difficult to measure at any given point along the way.

At this point, advancing battery [[and related energy storage) technology is more important than renewable sources of generating energy--for the very question you are posing. If we could somehow store that unused sunny/windy day energy for cloudy/calm days, it would open the door to innumerable benefits

Excellent answer and much thanks!!

I assumed that cloud cover, obviously, was a big issue and that can be looked up. I know areas in MI [[e.g., Saginaw, etc.) have a bad reputation for having lot of cloudy days [[don't tell the Chamber of Commerce). I remember seeing a chart or graphic in a book titled: "Places Rated...". Cities got marked down for too many cloudy days.

The next question was: Well, what about sunny days when the temps are cold? Maybe a spring sun day in March?

By looking at gvidas' graphic, I assume one can assign 'grades', maybe "A+" in the So. Cal deserts, "A" in much of the areas of AZ, NV, etc. a "C" for much of the country and a 'D' for the Midwest.

Where I see big possibilities, but not going off the grid, are for those with all-electric houses say mid-Atlantic and south of it, where trying to lower, maybe significantly, the electric usage during winter for heating...

I can't see why anyone in Phoenix wouldn't try to let mother nature cool their houses with solar - peak electric usage would be during the long, hot, sunny days when solar would be optimal. Save some electricity for evening usage. Perfect.

BTW, maybe in 10 years, Musk and Tesla will be known more for their batteries and solar than their fancy electric cars...

[emu steve]

One other thought:

Not sure 'public policy' is the right context, but from a public policy/energy policy/etc. does it make sense to have more all-electric homes and have those homes built with solar cells for houses south of the Mason-Dixon line?

Why use a gas furnace when solar/electric would be kind of a 'free' renewable?

[BankruptcyGuy]

The existing gigafactory for battery construction has been a well-documented taxpayer boondoggle.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/nevada-g...ked-1410821915

[emu steve]

The existing gigafactory for battery construction has been a well-documented taxpayer boondoggle.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/nevada-g...ked-1410821915

I have 'mixed feelings' about this.

Yes, a classic case of 'Corporate welfare'. Economically makes no sense for Nevada. They got ripped off, unless the [[NV) governor is smarter than we think. Maybe some day Tesla electric cars will be built in Nevada???

That said, the 'public policy' [[big picture, macro) is that it will encourage development/manufacturing of the much, much needed batteries which, as described in this thread, are necessary for solar [[and electric cars) to take off.

So: Musk robs Nevada blind but the other 49 states are big winners [[or something like that) as they reap the fruits of Tesla's battery development/manufacturing efforts in NV. As widely discussed, cheap/high capacity batteries will drive this industry [[along with more efficient solar cells).

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The existing gigafactory for battery construction has been a well-documented taxpayer boondoggle.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/nevada-g...ked-1410821915

From the Murdoch WSJ: "He's figured out that as long as you pick a politically favored industry you can be one of the world's richest men and still get taxpayers to finance your operations and become even richer."

I wonder how many thousands of times the WSJ could have said that about the oil and gas industry but failed to?

[BagAJellyDonuts]

I have 'mixed feelings' about this.

Yes, a classic case of 'Corporate welfare'. Economically makes no sense for Nevada. They got ripped off, unless the [[NV) governor is smarter than we think. Maybe some day Tesla electric cars will be built in Nevada???

That said, the 'public policy' [[big picture, macro) is that it will encourage development/manufacturing of the much, much needed batteries which, as described in this thread, are necessary for solar [[and electric cars) to take off.

So: Musk robs Nevada blind but the other 49 states are big winners [[or something like that) as they reap the fruits of Tesla's battery development/manufacturing efforts in NV. As widely discussed, cheap/high capacity batteries will drive this industry [[along with more efficient solar cells).

IMO, not a fan of Musk or Tesla, consider them frauds in every way. I too wonder when the shine comes off of Tesla, who will get hurt? IMO, their efforts to avoid dealer franchises is just as sleazy as the days of fair trade electronics. IOW, if anybody really thinks that avoiding the current method of auto sales is going save you money I've got plenty of bridges to sell you.

We as a nation have no intelligent energy policy. The same incompetent boobs that gave us cash for clunkers also has given us CAFE. Both are failures. There is no real incentive to use less. We want style or image. And IMO the solution is so simple, make energy cost more and reap benefit in a way that benefits all. Nobody from either political spectrum would dare embrace that.

[emu steve]

I consider CAFE a big, big success because it forced 'Detroit' to do what it didn't want to do [[for self interest: sell less expensive gas guzzlers and more vehicles with better fuel economy), what the nation wants [[buy less big, stylish automobiles and more fuel efficient vehicles), but what D.C. WANTED [[and got).

Isn't there a || [[parallel) thing going on with renewal energy production? Aren't there standards for renewal energy which energy companies have to meet? I saw the number '10%' somewhere... [[e.g., 10% of their energy produced has to come from renewal sources).

IF I'm right, 10% will become 12.5% and then 15% and...

BTW, for every Volt, Prius, Tesla, etc. sold, that means that more folks can buy their SUVs.

It all averages out...

[Onthe405]

Isn't there a || [[parallel) thing going on with renewal energy production? Aren't there standards for renewal energy which energy companies have to meet? I saw the number '10%' somewhere... [[e.g., 10% of their energy produced has to come from renewal sources).

Other than nebulous long-term overall national percentage goals outlined by the EPA & the Administration, I don't believe [[could be wrong) there is a federally mandated, enforceable ratio of renewables in place. Part of the reason being what we discussed in other postings on the thread: some states don't have sufficient wind, hydroelectric, or solar resources available to meet a guaranteed percentage. California is currently generating +26-% [[including hydro) of its electricity from renewables and has its own enforceable timetable for all public & private utilities. Of course, this only applies to electricity generated by/for customers within the state.

However, I know there is a federal mandate timetable with regard to power plant emissions--with the goal of replacing all coal-fired power plants. States like WV and the coal producers have fought the EPA and the Feds tooth-and-nail on this one. I believe the only requirement is to replace coal plants with natural gas or oil, without a specific renewable component.