Greektown Casino renovations

**astongraham** · February-26-14, 05:16 PM

I know this was discussed on this site before, but I can't seem to find the thread. Instead of doing a renovation of Greektown Casino and changing the floor plan to not make it such.a sucky mess as it currently is, Gilbert will instead replace the carpet. I guess the casino will continue to be a confusing mess for the foreseeable future, but with new carpet and a/c. I know many love the original nostalgic design but you have to admit its really bad for anyone that isn't a Detroit native. My aunt that visits from California will no longer go to that casino due to the confusion of catwalks, many leading to nowhere.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/mobile/...oreUserAgent=1

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-26-14, 05:35 PM

The current casino layout is confused. And, alone among the 3 casinos, it does not a have a floorplan map on it's website. Little wonder.

I wonder how his casinos in Ohio, which were designed, unlike Vegas-style casinos, to be integrated into the neighborhood are doing. I think retrofitting the casino is going to be difficult, because it needs to keep fully operating during any renovation. I do like that they're putting more money into it. And, if he ends up getting the jail and associated properties, the neighborhood will really take off. It won't be particularly Greek, of course, but it will be busy.

**astongraham** · February-26-14, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

The current casino layout is confused. And, alone among the 3 casinos, it does not a have a floorplan map on it's website. Little wonder.

I wonder how his casinos in Ohio, which were designed, unlike Vegas-style casinos, to be integrated into the neighborhood are doing. I think retrofitting the casino is going to be difficult, because it needs to keep fully operating during any renovation. I do like that they're putting more money into it. And, if he ends up getting the jail and associated properties, the neighborhood will really take off. It won't be particularly Greek, of course, but it will be busy.

Do you think that there is any glimmer of possibility that eventually he would abandoned that current casino location, do something else with the site and build anew in one of the newly acquired jail sites? It would still be close to the current hotel. I just have a strange feeling that the long term goal now would be to construct a new locale. I know people will argue the historic significance of "trappers alley", but historical significance isn't a valid argument in a business word.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-26-14, 06:22 PM

Astongram, I actually had the same thought, but I though of a few reasons why not. First, building a whole new casino from scratch [[plus converting the existing one into apartments, stores, etc) would undoubtedly be much pricier than the casino reno and development of the old "jail" properties. Second, I presume the People Mover station brings in a hefty chunk of gamblers when there is an event at the Joe/Cobo or RenCen. A relocated casino wouldn't really benefit from that. Third, the massive infrastructure of the parking garage and current hotel would be a lot less revenue-producing when detached from the casino. Lastly, I can't imagine taking on so much more debt [[to build a new casino would certainly be in the hundreds of millions of dollars) while the existing casino has so much debt, and more casinos proliferate both in Michigan and throughout the country.

But there are some reasons why it could be beneficial. First and foremost, it would be much closer to the stadiums & theatres, and would be much more visible physically. Currently you can see Greektown Casino signs all over the place in Greektown, without actually knowing which building is the casino. Second, it allow would Gilbert & Co to design the casino the way they want it, both to provide a better layout, and to integrate it better into the surrounding area. Third, I think the current Greektown casino is perceived [[rightly or wrongly; the Greektown location makes me prefer it to the others) as being Detroit's smallest/weakest casino in terms of amenities. Launching a new one would give them the chance to create a new pecking order among the casinos in the public eye.

In most circumstances I would be very worried about the old site if the casino did in fact move; but I think Dan Gilbert would create an amazing something where the casino currently is, so that doesn't bother me here. In the end, I think financially it would seem to be more prudent to stay put, but if DG says the move would be the smartest plan, I would be in favor of it.

**rb336** · February-26-14, 07:49 PM

Something is in the works. I have a friend who is working on it but can't mention more because it is very hush-hush right now. Even tried lubing his tongue with alcohol, but he won't say more

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-26-14, 08:06 PM

RB, do you know if it is the casino itself, or just development in the neighborhood?

**Bobl** · February-27-14, 01:32 AM

The damned thing never should have been built there, in the first place.
End of rant.

**animatedmartian** · February-27-14, 02:52 AM

I remember reading about how Gilbert wanted to connect Greektown to Campus Martius via Monroe street. So really, Gilbert's potential for development could be anywhere within the Gratiot, 375, Lafayette, Randolph city blocks if he does in fact acquire the jail sites [[among a few parking lots). Also someone from Bedrock had mentioned putting residential at Monroe and Randolph which I'm not sure if he got a hold of yet last I heard.

I can only imagine that Gilbert will either do one project at a time or maybe do them all at once. If he does them all at once, then there's going to be a lot of build up to his plans. Though I imagine it would be financially easier and safer to do them one at a time.

**compn** · February-27-14, 07:12 AM

i've walked down a few stairs in the casino only to find they are not exits at the bottom of said stairs. honestly looks like a fire hazard violation.

greektown casino seriously needs better ventilation.
you can actually see the cloud of smoke, thats not good to be breathing.

**Scottathew** · February-27-14, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by astongraham

Gilbert will instead replace the carpet.

Read your own article, he's still investing 40+ million and making many improvements.

My guess is that they're holding off because they have big plans for the fail-jail site.

I do agree that Greektown is a terrible, confusing mess. I've been there a few times and I still have a very hard time finding my way around.

**softailrider** · February-27-14, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Bobl

The damned thing never should have been built there, in the first place.
End of rant.

I totally agree - casinos should be stand alone buildings, within walking distance of each other and all the gaming on one floor would be ideal.
I don't gamble much any more anyway. I figured out I would be better off if I kept my money.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-27-14, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by softailrider

I totally agree - casinos should be stand alone buildings, within walking distance of each other and all the gaming on one floor would be ideal.
I don't gamble much any more anyway. I figured out I would be better off if I kept my money.

I also virtually never gamble [[I have spent probably $100 in Detroit's casinos over the years; I have spent much more at the restaurants and hotels).

I disagree about your assessment for Detroit casino placement, though. Pooling the casinos into one central location would make sense if Detroit were a casino-resort destination. But Detroit gamblers are not flying into town to go drop a bundle on a luxury multi-day stay. Our gamblers are mostly local residents making a several hour long trip to the casinos or visiting them briefly while being downtown anyway [[on business, seeing a game, going to a convention, etc). Placing the casinos in and around downtown, and at three different places, provides more opportunity for the "proximity" gamblers to stop in and drop a little money. If there were a "casino campus", the people staying or meeting or working downtown would be less likely to pass right by or near a casino, and thus less likely to patronize a casino. There is more total gambling [[and thus revenue for the casino and government coffers) if casinos can pick off more "gamblers of opportunity." We'd lose that if they were grouped together. I do wish MGM and MotorCity were in spots with more pedestrians, although I think as downtown "fills in" they will be. Greektown, had they built a casino as good as either of the other two, would be the busiest of them, because it undoubtedly gets more spillover from sporting events, concerts, etc.

Also, if the casino campus idea were built, I don't know where a great location would have been. I'm thrilled it's not the riverfront. I think the RiverWalk would not have come into existence- or had the peaceful, family environment it does- if they were built there.

**astongraham** · February-27-14, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by compn

i've walked down a few stairs in the casino only to find they are not exits at the bottom of said stairs. honestly looks like a fire hazard violation.

greektown casino seriously needs better ventilation.
you can actually see the cloud of smoke, thats not good to be breathing.

I agree with you 100%, about the potential hazards of the current casino. The location fills up with smoke really fast and it can be a bit hard to breath if you're sensitive to smoke such as that [[and cigars). The maze of catwalks that go nowhere, the sheer height of the catwalks, along with scary and narrow stairways that often times lead to locked doors and in some cases to employee only areas is a fire nightmare waiting to happen. Can you imagine a stampede of people rushing to get out of the place that aren't familiar with the layout? I really don't know how it passes a safety inspection. If you are in the main floor area you may be fine. If your in the back poker area close to Monroe on a higher up floor, you are basically screwed and I hope you have a parachute.
The reason I was excited about the originally announced renovation was because It was going to simplify the design and do away with hazards and bottlenecks. Most people only saw it as taking away from the charm of the place. The charm is deadly and makes no sense. Besides, I still think the Monroe side of the building looks like basic shit. It reminds me of a side of a building that would be facing an alley.

**astongraham** · February-27-14, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by 48307

Read your own article, he's still investing 40+ million and making many improvements.

My guess is that they're holding off because they have big plans for the fail-jail site.

I do agree that Greektown is a terrible, confusing mess. I've been there a few times and I still have a very hard time finding my way around.

Yes he is investing 40 mill on carpet and ventilation. The casino is still basically a mess, a loss leader and the red head stepchild of all casinos in the area. Like I said before, the Monroe side of the building still looks like an alley. So overall he is doing a reno to make it not smell like cigarette smoke for the foreseeable future.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-27-14, 09:49 AM

It amazes me how a story about how someone is investing millions into a building that they own and operate can result in such a b!#chfest on this site.

**rb336** · February-27-14, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

RB, do you know if it is the casino itself, or just development in the neighborhood?

My friend just said "we are working on something for the Greektown Casino"

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-27-14, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

It amazes me how a story about how someone is investing millions into a building that they own and operate can result in such a b!#chfest on this site.

There are some people you couldn't hand a million dollars to without hearing, "How am I supposed to pay the taxes on that money!?"

**Gistok** · February-27-14, 12:00 PM

OK a few things... the Monroe side of the building IS AN ALLEY... Trappers Alley is an 1850s former alley that was turned into a fesival marketplace, and then into a casino.

I would hate to see some cheap redo to match the rest of the historicized building.

If anything it would be nice to have more stores or restaurants there... rather than a 5 story hallway with a lot of dead space, which it currently is.

Remove some of the cheezy marketplace look... OK... but destroy the antebellum character of the place because a few folks don't like the look... no f***ing way!

**Ltdave** · February-27-14, 03:41 PM

my wife and i gamble about $70 a year. she $20 on slots, me $50 on craps...

we go to detroit to stay and see things [[museums, plays, belle isle, greektown, restaurants ect) but we end up more often than not staying anywhere BUT in the casinos. we dont gamble a lot so we would rather spend time in the pool or hot tub. none of the casino hotels have these...

we stayed at motorcity for our anniversary and the spa was $25 each, without a pool AND gender-segregated. hard to sit and talk with your significant other when theyre IN ANOTHER ROOM...

i realize pools are a distraction to the gaming areas but Atlantic City and Vegas have pools...

whats better? $120 i night hotel stay and $70 gambling or $0 a night and $0 gambling because someone stayed in a hotel with a pool?

**Honky Tonk** · February-27-14, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Ltdave

my wife and i gamble about $70 a year. she $20 on slots, me $50 on craps...

we go to detroit to stay and see things [[museums, plays, belle isle, greektown, restaurants ect) but we end up more often than not staying anywhere BUT in the casinos. we dont gamble a lot so we would rather spend time in the pool or hot tub. none of the casino hotels have these...

we stayed at motorcity for our anniversary and the spa was $25 each, without a pool AND gender-segregated. hard to sit and talk with your significant other when theyre IN ANOTHER ROOM...

i realize pools are a distraction to the gaming areas but Atlantic City and Vegas have pools...

whats better? $120 i night hotel stay and $70 gambling or $0 a night and $0 gambling because someone stayed in a hotel with a pool?

Pool your money and next time try the beach @ Belle Isle. No hanky-panky, though......

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-27-14, 04:02 PM

Ltdave, I think you and your wife are a small part of the casino market in Detroit. Not a lot of "resort stayers". A pool and larger spa cost money and take up land; I suspect they were considered but rejected by MGM & MC [[Greektown probably couldn't have found the space). The gains in sales from those assets were probably not judged to be very large because most of the potential market are "pop-in" visits, not extended stays. I think a casino in Detroit built to actually reflect Vegas-level amenities would be the busiest Detroit casino, but would also close due to the inability to meet it's debt service. Detroit can support "regional" casinos, not national destination casinos. Just my opinion.

Slightly separate thought: I have thought for some time that the Ilitches should buy and develop the land between the casino and the Jeffries into a year-round indoor/outdoor waterpark with an attached hotel. There is nothing like that in Detroit, and it would be a great place to stay with kids. Although it wouldn't literally be part of the casino, it would be next to it. It could bring in more gamblers, and offer an additional amenity to Motor City Hotel guests [[selling waterpark or pool passes with room packages). But that's just what I would do if I had the billions.

**softailrider** · February-27-14, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Pool your money and next time try the beach @ Belle Isle. No hanky-panky, though......

Especially during the winter, won't be much hanky-panky on that beach.

**Scottathew** · February-27-14, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

It amazes me how a story about how someone is investing millions into a building that they own and operate can result in such a b!#chfest on this site.

That's how I feel about it too. 40 million is a LARGE investment and it shows that they're serious about fixing issues.

My guess is they're not renovating until they can get a for-sure deal on the fail jail site.

**detroitbob** · March-04-14, 02:27 AM

If something happens on the fail jail site, it will be ironic as that was the space that the Casino project was originally supposed to relocate to from Trappers Alley. I could imagine some sort of connection/walkway/tram from the hotel leading a block north to the jail site. Interestng...

**belleislerunner** · March-04-14, 08:44 AM

I could see how Greektown is confusing the first time you go - but if you can't figure it out within 30 minutes - you shouldn't be gambling in the first place, given your limited intelligence. You come in off the valet entrance or Monroe - you have slots and a circle bar - You take the esclators/stairs up to more gaming. Maybe "confusing" is code word for people who are lazy and want everything on one floor.