Detroit pension protesters offer own bankruptcy plan, vow to shut city down

[Vic01]

Shouting “No peace — no justice,” leaders of a planned protest this Sunday against the City of Detroit’s tentative bankruptcy settlement gathered in a city church today and promised they would “shut the city down.”

http://www.freep.com/article/2014022...ion-protesters

[bailey]

Shouting “No peace — no justice,” leaders of a planned protest this Sunday against the City of Detroit’s tentative bankruptcy settlement gathered in a city church today and promised they would “shut the city down.”

http://www.freep.com/article/2014022...ion-protesters

Theyre going to "shut the city down" by protesting on a Sunday afternoon? Is this a jimmy kimmel bit?

[Honky Tonk]

Shouting “No peace — no justice,” leaders of a planned protest this Sunday against the City of Detroit’s tentative bankruptcy settlement gathered in a city church today and promised they would “shut the city down.”

http://www.freep.com/article/2014022...ion-protesters

"Leaders said a plan of adjustment announced last week that would slash some city pensions by 34% was unacceptable and racist."

Well, there it is.....

"They submitted to the bankruptcy judge their own “People’s Plan for Restructuring Toward a Sustainable Detroit,” a 10-page document"

Does anyone know where the document is available for reading? I can't turn anything up with Google. Thanx

[Wesley Mouch]

Shouting “No peace — no justice,” leaders of a planned protest this Sunday against the City of Detroit’s tentative bankruptcy settlement gathered in a city church today and promised they would “shut the city down.”

http://www.freep.com/article/2014022...ion-protesters

An argument could be made that their pension management and 19th-century work rules did cause the city to shut down. Their too late to their own funeral.

[cla1945]

I am a City of Detroit Fire Department retiree. I am white. Please continue the fight for all retirees but leave race out of the equation, there is no place for that in this fight and no basis for that statement.

[Honky Tonk]

I am a City of Detroit Fire Department retiree. I am white. Please continue the fight for all retirees but leave race out of the equation, there is no place for that in this fight and no basis for that statement.

Any word on whether or not your Union is going to accept the agreement within the allotted time period? According to Kevyn Orr, from his interview on WDET, the DFD/DPD pensions were better funded. Early acceptance of the agreement would result in only a 4% pension reduction. Any insight if this is true?

[cla1945]

In my opinion, a 4% cut in my pension is acceptable and I could live with it. I think it's highly unfair for the general city retirees to be asked to endure such a heavy cut of 26%, that's huge and could put many people in jeopardy. So far, neither union is agreeing to accept those cuts and will continue to fight. I am absolutely appalled that some of the retirees are using race as a tool to fight, that's ludicrous and I am embarrassed and sorry that happened. To me, that will lose our battle faster than anything.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

An argument could be made that their pension management and 19th-century work rules did cause the city to shut down. Their too late to their own funeral.

This has nothing to do with "work rules" I guess this is your subtle dig at the unions. The people who managed the pension funds along with KK are to blame.

[Honky Tonk]

In my opinion, a 4% cut in my pension is acceptable and I could live with it. I think it's highly unfair for the general city retirees to be asked to endure such a heavy cut of 26%, that's huge and could put many people in jeopardy. So far, neither union is agreeing to accept those cuts and will continue to fight. I am absolutely appalled that some of the retirees are using race as a tool to fight, that's ludicrous and I, embarrassed and sorry that happened. To me, that will lose our battle faster than anything.

I appreciate your years of life-threatening public service, and certainly don't deny you your just pension. But things being what they are, wouldn't it make more sense, [[@ least for the DPD/DFD Pensions) to accept the 4% cut and move on? Your Union may or may not win this, and if not, it would certainly incur needless legal expense, and a larger deduction for the pensioners, no? Or is the DFD/DPD Union backing the City Employee Union because it's a "Union" thing?

[cla1945]

I appreciate your years of life-threatening public service, and certainly don't deny you your just pension. But things being what they are, wouldn't it make more sense, [[@ least for the DPD/DFD Pensions) to accept the 4% cut and move on? Your Union may or may not win this, and if not, it would certainly incur needless legal expense, and a larger deduction for the pensioners, no? Or is the DFD/DPD Union backing the City Employee Union because it's a "Union" thing?

Thank you for saying that, I appreciate the kind remark.
I don't know what the outcome of this will be. I hope everyone involved makes the right decisions regarding us retirees. We are in the hands of the judges and lawyers. It's a union thing because fighting this injustice is the right thing to do, but more importantly, it's a "human thing".

[poobert]

I am a City of Detroit Fire Department retiree. I am white. Please continue the fight for all retirees but leave race out of the equation, there is no place for that in this fight and no basis for that statement.

Yeah, this is bizarre. I'm not sure if the blame lies with the Free Press for slanting the coverage towards such a childish organization or the organizations fault for being loud and childish. I'd venture that city retirees are an extremely diverse group, perhaps even majority white, and screaming "racist" in general seems to win few allies. A ten page document? Did that kid in the front write it? What a joke.

The underlying issue here, obscured by the activist goofiness is that these people who worked all their lives, and are now elderly, are taking a 34% pay cut. If that happened to me, I'd be reduced to poverty. These people are already living on a meager income and have no way of supplementing it. It is simply unacceptable and must be avoided. Let's talk in terms of 5% - 10%.

As for "19th century work rules" you ghastly conservatives should be giddy over such a prospect, were it not for your perverted misunderstanding of history. The 19th century meant no government interference in private industry, thus child labor, routine maiming and death at the workplace, no pensions or retirements of any sort [[you simply worked until the company no longer found you useful and got rid of you), and as a result a much shorter life expectancy for the American worker. Mass casualties in mines and factory accidents were relatively common, as well, what with government "out of the way". Unions were all but illegal. I know you can only dream of such a time. You have indeed made much progress in bringing us back to the Guilded Age. Good show.

[Scottathew]

Those wanting to protect pensions are wanting to shaft Detroit residents services so bad that people are literally dying.

Everyone has taken a haircut, it's time for the pensioners to do so as well. It sucks, but it's reality.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Here is a link to the "plan":

http://www.d-rem.org/peoplesplan/

Other than violating state law, the US Constitution, and laws of basic mathematics, it's great.

Ditto on whomever made the comment about the Freep not doing any analysis. Would it be that hard to a) read the plan, and b) ask the leaders of this organization about some of its basic flaws?

[Ray1936]

Those wanting to protect pensions are wanting to shaft Detroit residents services so bad that people are literally dying.

Everyone has taken a haircut, it's time for the pensioners to do so as well. It sucks, but it's reality.

Various DPD blogs, including facebook, seem to trend the idea that most of my colleagues are not opposed to the 4% cut. Frankly, it's a good offer. It includes the loss of COLA for ten years, although I'm under the old plan which does not have COLA anyway. Remember, police and fire do not pay in to social security. Nor did the City have to pay their share.

[acer_ventura]

After reading the "People's Plan," I feel like I've just been shaken down by a hustler at a pool hall.

Most of the appropriate 'evil-doers' of the Western World are represented within the confines of this 10-page document: bankers, whites, corporations, state government, federal government, emergency managers, etc. ad nauseum.

As large as this bankruptcy actually has become -I'm not sure some of the special interest groups have completely wrapped their minds around the long-term threat to the city if this doesn't get completed with some sense of order [[and pain for all parties).

Manifestos that demand immediate action often seem to be short on details of workable plans on how to accomplish their gripes other than to put out a hand -and ask for another round of cash.

[313WX]

Those wanting to protect pensions are wanting to shaft Detroit residents services so bad that people are literally dying.

Everyone has taken a haircut, it's time for the pensioners to do so as well. It sucks, but it's reality.

^^^Completely agreed.

[Honky Tonk]

Well I read the document and some things come to [[my) mind. It might be a good idea if everyone who is currently receiving pensions, returned the "13th Month" bonus Pension checks that were paid out. This would probably put off having to cut the current Pension Benefits by 26%. [[34% if they end up losing in court) This would also allow the latest Pensioners to @ least get some benefits before the well runs dry. http://www.freep.com/article/2013100...irement-System The racial overtones in the document have no business being in there, [[IMO) if this was indeed an attempt @ a serious, alternative, solution to the bankruptcy crisis. The comments also aren't doing much to convince me to remain a long-term Detroit resident. I do agree that if banks or mortgage companies own property in Detroit, they too should be paying their fair share taxes for services and upkeep. To this day I'm unclear on the "Revenue Sharing Plan" with the State, and whether or not the State does owe Detroit money. There also seems to be this running suggestion, through the document, about what this 3rd person "Detroit" needs to do to resolve these issues. Aren't these the very employees that were in charge of collections, demolition, public services, etc., that dropped the ball in the first place, and allowed the current situation to come to a boil?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The one major flaw in the bankruptcy [[although I understand why it was done) is continued defined benefit retirement schemes. You can't assume future people will have either the wherewithall or the will to pay for services rendered long ago. The city should make a contribution to a retirement savings or investment account while you are working, with each check. The city's obligation would end the day you stop working for the city. No debt for future taxpayers.

[Danny]

As for "19th century work rules" you ghastly conservatives should be giddy over such a prospect, were it not for your perverted misunderstanding of history. The 19th century meant no government interference in private industry, thus child labor, routine maiming and death at the workplace, no pensions or retirements of any sort [[you simply worked until the company no longer found you useful and got rid of you), and as a result a much shorter life expectancy for the American worker. Mass casualties in mines and factory accidents were relatively common, as well, what with government "out of the way". Unions were all but illegal. I know you can only dream of such a time. You have indeed made much progress in bringing us back to the Guilded Age. Good show.

For the '20th Century work rules' Proto-Socialist and Proto-Communist Unions were formed to address working hazards, profit sharing, insurances for assurances and supplemental retirement pensions.[[ Just in case you're not getting Social Security bread and welfare cheese.) Governments have to step in make sure those conservative monopolizing moguls don't mess with the unions. Unions still have hold both political and voting power in American politics. [[Take Detroit city gov't for example whoever is running for mayor or city council will be backed by the UAW! If you're in the union, work your a%^ off, pay your dues, and receive protection just in case you get fired. Unions in the 20th Century was legal! And they are getting greedy every day. I wonder what 21st Century work rules would apply to the late Disney Generation.

As for Detroit city unions today. They still have power over public services and if they get what they wanted, they can shut Detroit down whatever they feel like it. It's going to be war from the U.S. Court of Law to the streets.


SOLIDARITY FOREVER!!!

[Király]

The big problem is that municipalities should not be funding their own pension plans. Too much volatility at the municipal level for any kind of stability. Cities change, cities empty out, cities disappear of the map completely.

Here in British Columbia there aren't any municipally-funded pension plans for municipal workers. Anyone who works for any municipality in the province is in a province-run pension plan.

I realize it's too late to do anything about that in Michigan now to fix the current situation but it's something to think about to plan for the future.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Kiraly, I understand that creating a larger [[province-run) pension dissipates financial risks [[and benefits), but the fundamental problems with defined benefits programs still exists: you have no ability to know in the present if the people of the future will have the ability to pay the assigned debt. The demographics and finances of the future are unknown. In the US [[and I presume in Canada), over the decades all the pertinent information changes. States that were growing by leaps and bounds years ago now aren't; states [[like Michigan) with a large amount of pension obligation have seen a steady erosion of younger professionals to pay into the system; the obligations of state and local officials to responsibly kick into pension funds every year varies widely; perhaps the biggest, and most innocent, problem: life expectancy keeps rising and rising, and there is no way [[except when you have substantial medical issues) to know when someone will die in the future, or how many people will still be around in 5 or 25 years. How can the taxpayers guarantee pensions when they don't know if retirees will live for 10 or 40 years after retirement? It's just not wise to put your eggs in assumed future baskets. No one would sign a mortgage if you didn't know how much the monthly payments were or how long the obligation was for. Why? Because it leaves you too exposed to risk, and all the uncertainty that goes along with that. We shouldn't take awful mortgage policy and convert it into a public pension plan. Terrible idea, except that it makes the choices today easier, because the potential timebomb will be for future politicians to deal with.

[Wesley Mouch]

This has nothing to do with "work rules" I guess this is your subtle dig at the unions. The people who managed the pension funds along with KK are to blame.

There's seldom a single cause. Both were causes. We have to fix everything. If we only fix the pensions funds and KK's malfeasance and ignore inefficiencies in operations, we aren't serving the citizens.

[Ray1936]

It's interesting that here in Nevada, all city/county/state employees are under the same pension fund, the PERS [[don't ask me what the acronym stands for). But local press has recently commented that it is actuarily rather severly underfunded.

As a Nevada taxpayer, that might bite me in the ass in the future. But what the hell, I'm 77, so I'll not lose any sleep over it.

[Gistok]

Ray1936... let me take an educated stab at PERS.... Public Employee Retirement System....

[Ray1936]

Ray1936... let me take an educated stab at PERS.... Public Employee Retirement System....

Yes, I'm pretty sure that is it, Gistock. I had a brain fart while typing that post. Happens a lot after I have my two glasses of pinot noir in the afternoon......