Troy Transit Center Update

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Did Ficano plan this place?

Remarkably bad planning. Almost stunning, considering it is not in Wayne County. "Read the contract all the way before signing anything" is always a good idea. The article does contain an error. Troy had until 2010 to complete the project before ownership of the land reverted back to the developer. The article only says they needed the financing in place. Not true. Either they didn't notice that clause in the contract, which is incompetence of the first order; or they knew and proceeded anyway, which is a clear abuse of power, and possibly a crime.

Janice Daniels is an idiot and I am glad she is no longer mayor. But the idiot, unlike the smart people, was at least able to determine that the project was going to cost taxpayers many millions more than promised. As it now is. For God's sake, they built the station, without permission, on land the contract said they didn't own! If you built a house on land you didn't own, the house would be torn down and you would go to jail!

Although the developer is certainly just holding out for more money [[that he is rightfully due), he could challenge the station's necessity at the eminent domain trial in court, and develop the land himself.

I will be glad when the fuss is over and the station opens. But everyone involved should do public transit a favor, and not involve themselves in further public projects. Maybe they can stay at the new Wayne County Jail downtown!
http://www.freep.com/article/2014022...ail-passengers

[DetroitPlanner]

This project had major set-backs due to too many agencies being involved in the project. Not only is Troy involved, but Birmingham, Oakland County, SMART, Amtrak, US DOT, MDOT......

Grand Sakwa had an agreement that they would be happy to donate the land if the transit center was built by a certain date. That date came and went even before a shovel was put in the ground.

Its a real shame as the current train station in Birmingham is fully inadequate and the newer one would serve not only Birmingham, but be walkable to the Grand Sakwa development that included housing and shopping. A huge step in this region toward true Transit Orientated Design [[TOD).

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

They had 10 years! And then AFTER the time they had to build it expired, they built it. I realize the orphan had many illegitimate parents, but wow. No one said or did anything about that?

Well, the station is built. When they finally get around to paying a lot of money for land they had for free, it'll be nice. Does anyone know who the lead agency was? I would presume the city of Troy. If so, they might end up spending more money having waited around for others to chip in than had they just payed for it. Ridiculous.

[Scottathew]

Troy also had tea-baggers fighting the project, including their former mayor and current homophobe, Janice Daniels.

Give Troy some credit, they successfully recalled Ms. Daniels.

[DetroitPlanner]

Janice Daniels has little to do with this her tenure was short and after the agreement expired. Sure its fun to vilify her, but look at the time-line.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Janice Daniels has little to do with this her tenure was short and after the agreement expired. Sure its fun to vilify her, but look at the time-line.

No disagreement with what you wrote. But she tried to kill it as a huge waste of money. The project will, I hope, prove to be worthwhile [[we'll know when it's been open for a year or two if more people are using the train or catching buses there). But it certainly will have wasted a huge amount of money before anyone boards a train there.

[motz]

Janice Daniels has little to do with this her tenure was short and after the agreement expired. Sure its fun to vilify her, but look at the time-line.

Her and her ilk rabble roused constantly, non-stop, throughout the tenure of the project. They actively seeked to block it and make sure it didn't go through, and are at least partially responsible for where we're at now. Kind of frustrating.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Her and her ilk rabble roused constantly, non-stop, throughout the tenure of the project. They actively seeked to block it and make sure it didn't go through, and are at least partially responsible for where we're at now. Kind of frustrating.

Motz, you are assigning too much power to criticism. People in favor of this project were in control for enough time to build it before a majority opposed to it briefly came to power. They did keep delaying it, looking for other people's money to build it. Ultimately, they got the worst of all worlds: a very delayed and downscaled project that other people did have to pay for, and the people of Troy will now have to pay for all over again before anyone can use it. JD was elected mayor more than a year AFTER the land legally reverted back to the developer. I generally will- and a lot of people on the right will- support good transit projects. But that does mean that the practicalities have to square up with the dream, including how to pay for it, and yes, owning the land you need. People were so in favor of this project that they willfully ignored the plainly apparent legal and financial issues involved. That mindset pervades a lot of transit dreams. The biggest example is California's silly "high speed rail" project. It's proponents [[a rapidly shrinking group) ignore that it's meager benefits don't warrant it's $68-100B budget + perpetual operating losses. They are so committed to it that some would stick to it if it's cost were $1T and would take 100 years to build [[as opposed to the 20-30 now estimated). People with that outlook should not be in charge of anything, let alone of managing the pipe dream project.

If the rabble rousers had been followed, the current transit situation would be unchanged, and many millions would not have been spent. If the rabble rousers had been listened to, and their criticism combined with intelligent and responsible work on the project, there would have been a modest but much improved station opened 3.5 years ago, serving the riders and costing all sources much less than we'll spend now. But putting your fingers in your ears and your rose colored glasses on your face gets you situations like this.

[Bham1982]

This project is Exhibit A of pork-barrel funding, and the reason people lose faith in the ability of our elected leaders to actually build anything of use.

Image a fancy, $7 million transit center, in a region desperate for decent transit options. Now imagine we built it in a location where public access may be illegal, per the adjacent property owner's land use rights.

Imagine we built in in a location, where, even if public access is somehow granted by the courts, there are generally no sidewalks, very spotty bus service, and three trains serving a few dozen folks per day.

Oh, and they moved the transit center from a very walkable-transit friendly location, to the alley behind a strip mall, basically inaccessible to all.

[That Great Guy]

This project is Exhibit A of pork-barrel funding, and the reason people lose faith in the ability of our elected leaders to actually build anything of use.

Image a fancy, $7 million transit center, in a region desperate for decent transit options. Now imagine we built it in a location where public access may be illegal, per the adjacent property owner's land use rights.

Imagine we built in in a location, where, even if public access is somehow granted by the courts, there are generally no sidewalks, very spotty bus service, and three trains serving a few dozen folks per day.

Oh, and they moved the transit center from a very walkable-transit friendly location, to the alley behind a strip mall, basically inaccessible to all.

There is more

After I-75 is widened, rename it the Brooks Patterson Freeway

[Novine]

The claim that the city "didn't own the land" in 2010 ignores the fact that the city had a court ruling that upheld the city's claim to the property. Grand/Sawka already got away with highway robbery with the initial judgment that allowed the existing development. Now Bowman is allowing them to abuse the legal process to extract millions for a piece of property that has little value to them and wouldn't get them anything near what they claim it's worth.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Novine, I can't speak to the judge's decision you reference, having not read it. But four things seem not disputable:
1) The original agreement, signed by all, required the would-be station to be done and running by 2010, or the property would revert back to Grand/Sawka.
2) There being ongoing litigation and dispute after said deadline passed without a station, it was irresponsible to invest any further money in the station until final [[and now, unsuccessful) conclusion.
3) 10 years is more than enough time to build a relatively modest station, especially considering no tracks needed to be laid or moved. The Renaissance Center [[phase 1- the first 5 towers) took less time to go from proposal to completion. And it is somewhat larger.
4) Grand/Sawka was operating in its own best interests. Leadership for the station was not. Perceptions as to the inherent value of the land, or the conditions under which nearby developments were built, are not even slightly pertinent. Resenting a bad deal doesn't mean one was not entered into. G/S has the legal right now to develop the site however they wish within existing zoning, including tearing down the station. Of course there will be an eminent domain claim made in court; I am not convinced that would be a sure thing. Since the station does not expand transit options, but does make them more pleasant, public necessity is a bit of a stretch. Ultimately, of course, they will pay G/S a large amount of money to buy or lease the land they once had free and clear.

I do not oppose transit projects. I am writing about this project because boneheaded ideas, bad planning, ignoring relevant dissenting arguments, and mismanagement jeopardize future transit projects, both in concept and in execution. Specifics matter. As Bham1982 notes, this particular station in this particular place might not have been the best use of anyone's money [[it is absolutely less pedestrian and bike friendly than the Birmingham side; and I suspect Bhamsters would be more likely to use it than the Trojans anyway); Also, it was not logistically well planned and executed from 2000 to my typing this. This will play out how it plays out, to the chagrin of Troy taxpayers. I just hope a sense of well-intended reality can accompany future SE Michigan transit projects.

[That Great Guy]

This Project is like the SMART Property Tax Renewal of August 2014.

The SMART Property Tax is a direct tax shift, siphoning off the gas tax from public bus service to build vast NEW Multi Billion dollar freeway expansions.

The result is a transportation system which only benefits those with cars and lots of money who can afford to pay Michigan car insurance rates.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

GreatGuy, I haven't read the specifics of anything on the August ballot [[although I will before I vote), but I think mass transit and automotive infrastructure should be planned together. In SE Michigan, most people will continue to own and use cars. But locating bus & rail lines, stations, and parking to flow with commuters' use of their cars makes sense. It can help alleviate traffic where it is worst, make dense areas more easily accessible, and assist those who don't have their own car. I wish people pushing for both mass transit and highways could get over the adversarial role they play. It doesn't help their own side in the end, let alone SE Michigan commuters and communities.

[That Great Guy]

GreatGuy, I haven't read the specifics of anything on the August ballot [[although I will before I vote), but I think mass transit and automotive infrastructure should be planned together. In SE Michigan, most people will continue to own and use cars. But locating bus & rail lines, stations, and parking to flow with commuters' use of their cars makes sense. It can help alleviate traffic where it is worst, make dense areas more easily accessible, and assist those who don't have their own car. I wish people pushing for both mass transit and highways could get over the adversarial role they play. It doesn't help their own side in the end, let alone SE Michigan commuters and communities.

At the voting booth, it is in writing your property tax replaces the fuel tax for all operating expenses

Google save fuel tax

then scroll

[Danny]

This Project is like the SMART Property Tax Renewal of August 2014.

The SMART Property Tax is a direct tax shift, siphoning off the gas tax from public bus service to build vast NEW Multi Billion dollar freeway expansions.

The result is a transportation system which only benefits those with cars and lots of money who can afford to pay Michigan car insurance rates.

...and I'm voting yes on that proposal. So deal with it.

[That Great Guy]

...and I'm voting yes on that proposal. So deal with it.

I think it should be raised from 0.59 to 2.3 mil

So, all bus service can be fully restored.

Fighting for federal and state fuel tax money for public bus service is a lost cause and a waste of time, barring unforeseen circumstances.

Without more ridership or more taxes for public bus service, you all can forget about light rail or seeing any improvements for mass transit or our transportation system in Greater Detroit, ever. It won't happen.

It's all about money.

So, vote YES, YES, YES because it won't be us who will pay but future generations.

In 100 years, people will say, why was it we built all those roads that can't be fixed without raising taxes again and agan. And again.

YES, YES, YES, And again YES.

It makes no difference to me how the vote comes out next August.

If high taxes and bus service reductions are your game, then vote YES

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

This relates to the several other transit related threads. I think what we need most, for transportation, is a game plan. That is why I think the RTA needs an Eisenhower and not a committee chairman. Someone who puts together a blueprint for SE Michigan for transportation, complete with priorities, timelines, and price tags for each project, and a plan for how to fund and operate things. And there could be adequate state and local scrutiny of the plans in advance and the operations as they proceed. I think the Troy stink bomb went off because it wasn't hugely on anyone's radar.

[DetroitPlanner]

This relates to the several other transit related threads. I think what we need most, for transportation, is a game plan. That is why I think the RTA needs an Eisenhower and not a committee chairman. Someone who puts together a blueprint for SE Michigan for transportation, complete with priorities, timelines, and price tags for each project, and a plan for how to fund and operate things. And there could be adequate state and local scrutiny of the plans in advance and the operations as they proceed. I think the Troy stink bomb went off because it wasn't hugely on anyone's radar.

Even Eisenhower had committees. They were called congress and the cabinet.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Even Eisenhower had committees. They were called congress and the cabinet.

Referring to Operation Overlord, not his presidency. As Supreme Commander, he had lots of people advise him and work under him, but he made all big decisions and had full responsibility. That allowed decisions to be made quickly when necessary, and one person to be accountable to Roosevelt and Churchill. Lots of commanders get the heave-ho in war, when they aren't getting done what needs to be done.

Also, just for future reference, the cabinet is not a committee. It does not take collective votes or make decisions as a whole. Decisions are still just the president's to make; specific polices made within each department. It is just an informal group that gathers [[in modern times, somewhat infrequently and mostly for ceremonial reasons) to take direction from the president and offer advice, if solicited. Nowadays Presidents [[in both parties) rely much more heavily on advice from White House staff, and conduct major policy initiatives through the West Wing, not government departments.

[sirrealone]

Grand Sakwa could have gotten a lot of positive publicity and been seen as a good corporate citizen had they said "Hey, you know what, city of Troy? We see that you missed the deadline, but we know this is something that was pretty complicated. Plus, everybody knows that we've done pretty well with the rest of the land and the retail we put up [[plus, we know the parcel in question wouldn't be a top of the line corporation anyway), so we'll go ahead and honor the original deal, even though it's a couple of years past the agreement that was signed way back when."

Yeah right.

Grand Sakwa has always been litigious. It's the one thing they can be counted on. Get them involved in a deal because they have the means to plan and organize large developments, but you can pencil in 'Getting involved in a lawsuit' in just about any deal they do. Their owners would not hesitate even a second to sue their own grandmothers if it added even one dollar to the bottom line.

So, yeah, they have every right to go down the path that they're currently on. I'm not arguing that. But, would it put them out of business for just one time to show up as a partner. Especially when you know that the cost of that land was written off the books long ago. Anything they get now is just gravy.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Sierraleone, I can't say I know much about GS. I don't. Even if everything you report is true, I just can't paint as the bad guy the side that didn't violate the contract. Would it be nice at this point for them to donate the land? Sure. But if there are investors involved [[I don't know their ownership structure), they would have an obligation to maximize the profit on the land, or would open themselves up to lawsuits. It would also have been nice for the owners of that restaurant in the old station to close down and donate it to be renovated as the new station. But asking people to just donate things isn't realistic. Lastly, if, as you say, they have a history of being litigious [[which would be a matter of public record), WHY WOULD THEY HAVE EVER BEEN A PARTNER TO DO BUSINESS WITH IN THE FIRST PLACE? Red flags are red for a reason.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...y-amid-dispute

The saga continues! Bad government policy- be it in the city or the suburbs- should always remain on our radar screens to remind us of the kinds of things we should avoid. The proponents of this project are continuing to make several non-sensical arguments. Among them:
1- One of the main reasons to build it was that federal funding was available. I think that is one of the stupidest and most jack-assed reasons to support something. If the transit center wouldn't have been on the horizon without federal money [[and with the number of potential users, it wasn't), it should not have been built just because someone else was willing to pay the tab. Would we take money to build Hoover Dam in metro Detroit if the feds would fund it?
2- More money should be spent to prevent the already spent money from going to waste. Similarly, Wayne County should pay to finish the jail, because if we don't spend $200M more then we wasted the first $200M. This point fails to realize lost money is lost and cannot be recovered with further spending.
3- Going to court to condemn and claim the property will just be a formality that we regret having to go through. In reality, the city might in fact lose the lawsuit since eminent domain lawsuits normally include a demonstration of the public necessity of the project. In the case of transit projects, that would include an expansion or improvement of the transit operations; the Troy transit center does not add any service or capacity. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the project actually is worse for pedestrians than the old station.

Grand/Sakwa, among other things, is holding out for detailed plans about future operations and finances. How the project ever broke ground without such a plan being already established is a demonstration of an absurd level of hubris and irresponsibility. I am concerned that no one in Troy government really seems to be acknowledging what has gone wrong here. Adding together the cost of the station's construction with the current property cost estimate, the project's cost [[not including operating costs) will amount to about $40 per paying rail customer, spread out over 10 years. We could have just hired them all a cab to downtown and saved money, with no messy transit project. Spend the money now, politicians! Worry about the details later, if at all. If your intentions are noble the realities are completely unimportant!

At this point the city will probably eventually gain control of the land, but boy it will be expensive, further undermining any logic the project may have once had. As someone who supports transit in the real world and not responsibility-free fantasy land, I know that transit funds are and will remain finite. Terribly planned and executed white elephant projects set back our region's efforts to build mass transit. When it eventually does open [[assuming it does), the Troy Transit Center will have spent in excess of $8M to serve a small pool of users without expanding capacity, usage, or better integrating our region's various systems. That is a victory for no one. We need no further projects like this in Metro Detroit.

[Bham1982]

1- One of the main reasons to build it was that federal funding was available.

And this is the dumbest part of the whole situation. There is no logic whatsoever to this project, even if you're a hard-core transit advocate. It's just spending money because it's available.

In a perfect world, the money could have been diverted to an actual transit-oriented location [[like the Detroit or Ann Arbor Am-shack stations) but instead we get a Taj Mahal of a station behind a strip mall for 40 daily customers. I bet you the annual maintenance/security alone runs six figures.

The old station, on the Birmingham side, was actually much more walkable and transit-friendly, but that's shutting down, so the interplay of the Rail District with the station will be lost.

[DetroitPlanner]

The old station, on the Birmingham side, was actually much more walkable and transit-friendly, but that's shutting down, so the interplay of the Rail District with the station will be lost.

It also did not conform to ADA and was open to the elements. To look at the current ridership and assume that is all that will use it is probably a mistake. Besides being unusable to many with disabilities, the current platform does not instill a sense of pride and is wholly inadequate should the RTA resume rail service along this corridor in the future. Yes a resumption of commuter rail may be optimistic, but having the infrastructure in place makes it more of a reality.