Wooden Water Main Pipes

**jackie5275** · February-14-14, 03:15 PM

I just heard a snippet of LBP's state of the county address earlier in the week. This part focused on Oakland Co not wanting to be part of Detroit's water system anymore & wanting to create their own. Anyway, he made a comment that Detroit's system still contained water main pipes made of wood. I thought to myself that's crazy & can't be accurate. However, not being an expert, I'm wondering if this is true. Do any DYes folks with that background or knowledge of the water system know anything about it?

**DetroitGuy76** · February-14-14, 03:29 PM

I do recall stories of still-in-use 19th Century wooden mains being dug up when they upgraded the utilities in Brush Park a decade ago. So I wouldn't be surprised if there are others elsewhere.

Originally Posted by jackie5275

I just heard a snippet of LBP's state of the county address earlier in the week. This part focused on Oakland Co not wanting to be part of Detroit's water system anymore & wanting to create their own. Anyway, he made a comment that Detroit's system still contained water main pipes made of wood. I thought to myself that's crazy & can't be accurate. However, not being an expert, I'm wondering if this is true. Do any DYes folks with that background or knowledge of the water system know anything about it?

**Detroitnerd** · February-14-14, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitGuy76

I do recall stories of still-in-use 19th Century wooden mains being dug up when they upgraded the utilities in Brush Park a decade ago. So I wouldn't be surprised if there are others elsewhere.

The science goes, more or less, that wood doesn't rot when it's always full of water. Every 40 years, another water main job uncovers the "last" wooden pipe in Detroit.

**mikefmich** · February-14-14, 03:55 PM

While at MichCon in the early 70's a number of street crews from the former E. Jefferson Station dug these up, particularly in older but still slightly lived in areas close to Elmwood Cemetery.

I had slice of one for awhile....but it's been long MIA.

Let me add to the best of my knowledge even decades ago, there were not any remaining active wood lines. LBP is full of shit....as usual.

**corktownyuppie** · February-14-14, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

The science goes, more or less, that wood doesn't rot when it's always full of water. Every 40 years, another water main job uncovers the "last" wooden pipe in Detroit.

I'm certainly not an expert, so there's my disclaimer first. Wood mains when coated on the outside [[tar? rubber?) can supposedly last for a long time.

To my knowledge the problem with DWSD water mains is that many of them are brick and mortar. Of course, just like brick and mortar above ground, they're subject to the same issues of water freezing, expanding a crack, rinse and repeat.

**Detroitnerd** · February-14-14, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

I'm certainly not an expert, so there's my disclaimer first. Wood mains when coated on the outside [[tar? rubber?) can supposedly last for a long time.

To my knowledge the problem with DWSD water mains is that many of them are brick and mortar. Of course, just like brick and mortar above ground, they're subject to the same issues of water freezing, expanding a crack, rinse and repeat.

Well, not necessarily. If these lines are [[a) below the frost line and [[b) always flowing at service water pressure anyway, then how does the water freeze?

My information on wooden pipes comes from A Splintered History of Wood."

**Honky Tonk** · February-14-14, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

I'm certainly not an expert, so there's my disclaimer first. Wood mains when coated on the outside [[tar? rubber?) can supposedly last for a long time.

To my knowledge the problem with DWSD water mains is that many of them are brick and mortar. Of course, just like brick and mortar above ground, they're subject to the same issues of water freezing, expanding a crack, rinse and repeat.

LBP is painting a picture, but he isn't staying between the lines. I didn't hear the speech, but if he's insinuating that ALL of Detroit's water system is running through wooden pipes, then, as another poster so aptly put it, "he's full of shit". HOWEVER, I have no doubt, that in some very old sections of Detroit, some of the old wooden, hollowed out log pipes still exist, and are even functioning. Why? Here is a long, drawn out scientific explanation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247634/

There are businesses retrieving, drying out old growth, sunken piers, etc. and making boards out of it. As long as those wooden pipes remain buried and wet, they'll be fine.

**Smirnoff** · February-14-14, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Well, not necessarily. If these lines are [[a) below the frost line and [[b) always flowing at service water pressure anyway, then how does the water freeze?

My information on wooden pipes comes from A Splintered History of Wood."

[[a) Many are not under the frost line.....

**catch22** · February-14-14, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

I just heard a snippet of LBP's state of the county address earlier in the week. This part focused on Oakland Co not wanting to be part of Detroit's water system anymore & wanting to create their own. Anyway, he made a comment that Detroit's system still contained water main pipes made of wood. I thought to myself that's crazy & can't be accurate. However, not being an expert, I'm wondering if this is true. Do any DYes folks with that background or knowledge of the water system know anything about it?

Not sure if it's still there, but during the Jeffries construction in the early 70s, I installed temporary phones for a subcontractor who was installing a cement cap over a wood water line that ran along the east side of Greenfield in the Jeffries right-of-way. They had hand-dug down to the line in a few spots to make sure it was where their prints said it was and was really odd to behold. It was 8-foot sections of hollowed-out cedar logs with tarred joints.

**old guy** · February-14-14, 11:58 PM

It's amazing where you can find information on these topics.

Discuss Detroit: Wooden water mains

**jackie5275** · February-19-14, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by old guy

It's amazing where you can find information on these topics.

Discuss Detroit: Wooden water mains

Please forgive me for not searching for this topic. [[BTW, Is this going to be a criteria now that you must do a search for asking a question?) Anyway, I just didn't think wooden water mains were an actuality. I thought it was just LBP's bullshit. I always thought they were made of cement.

**Detroitnerd** · February-19-14, 11:30 AM

http://www.aqueduct.org/newsletter/pipe-dreams

**DetroitPlanner** · February-19-14, 11:30 AM

On WWJ just this morning they were interviewing Ken Cockrell who mentioned that wooden pipes still exist all over the place, but they are no longer being used. The interview was about the state of watermains.

**downtownguy** · February-19-14, 12:38 PM

The New York Times had a front page story Sunday about how many northern cities are coping with water main breaks. Detroit was mentioned in the second paragraph. The story is linked below. Along with the story is a slide show. One of the photos show a cross section of a wooden water pipe once used in Syracuse. Another photo shows the two Detroit cops using a construction front loader to rescue a driver during the Gratiot water main break.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/us...-as-pipes.html

**poobert** · February-19-14, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by mikefmich

Let me add to the best of my knowledge even decades ago, there were not any remaining active wood lines. LBP is full of shit....as usual.

Yep.

He also referred to a respected New Yorker columnist as a dilettante, among other shitbombs of assorted nonsense, after he predictably failed to impress her by slandering Detroit with anecdotes about "Indians" and taking her to a Yacht Club in Wayne County.

In short he's still a nasty, rancid old man.

**old guy** · February-19-14, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

Please forgive me for not searching for this topic. [[BTW, Is this going to be a criteria now that you must do a search for asking a question?) Anyway, I just didn't think wooden water mains were an actuality. I thought it was just LBP's bullshit. I always thought they were made of cement.

My apologies jackie. I wasn't trying to be a topic cop, just ran across that thread and thought I'd toss it in.

**Detroitnerd** · February-19-14, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Smirnoff

[[a) Many are not under the frost line.....

Well, I wonder what the science is. Maybe it's like when you keep your faucet dripping during a freezing night so the pipes won't burst. As long as water is moving through ... even incrementally ... that may be enough to keep it from freezing.

Anyway, I'd rather have wooden pipes than a wooden head like Patterson.

**jackie5275** · February-19-14, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by old guy

My apologies jackie. I wasn't trying to be a topic cop, just ran across that thread and thought I'd toss it in.

Thanks old guy.

**Mikeg** · February-19-14, 06:49 PM

As I mentioned in that earlier thread from 2008 [[emphasis is mine):

From page 5 of the Detroit Water and Sewage Department - the First 300 Years:

Early Water Mains

Tamarack trees were harvested from marshy regions along the Clinton River before being rafted down to Detroit. The logs were hollowed out and laid end-to-end along Jefferson Avenue and parts of Larned and Congress. Individual sections were joined together with smaller sleeves, most frequently made of lead.

The term fire plug - slang for a fire hydrant - originated during this period. Crews responding to fires, exposed and tapped into the wooden main to connect their hoses. When finished, the crews used a plug to seal the hole.

Work crews continue to find wooden mains. The quality of workmanship that went into these early mains was superior. So superior, in fact, that most would still be perfectly functional today if the pressures of modern water systems were not so high.

In other words, there are not any wooden water mains still in service - if they were, they would be continually breaking because of the higher pressures used today. The old wooden water mains were abandoned in place when they were superseded by new cast iron water mains. It's the abandoned wooden mains that are still being found when repairs are being made to adjacent utility lines.

**Don K** · February-19-14, 07:53 PM

Now the question I'd like answered is where LBP is going to get the water. Would the OC water authority build a new inlet in Lake Huron and pipe the water across St Clair and Macomb counties? Will they drill wells to go after ground water? If so will we all have to install water softeners like everyone in OC who depends on wells? And what's the sustainability of the ground water if it's supplying water for close to a million and a quarter people [[not that LBP ever worried about sustainability beyond his remaining lifetime). At the end of the day, will it save us money, or is it just another way to stick a finger in the eye of Detroit?

**WaCoTS** · February-19-14, 11:15 PM

there are still wooden pipes under Fort Wayne, which used to form the intake and outlet of the fort's sewage system, and probably date to the 1840s. a diver observed what was believed to be the intake, while diving for other artifacts in the area of the old docks [[now offshore of the Army CoE boatyard). of course this system has been non-functional for many decades, but you can still see down into the latrine pit if you come to the fort in the summer and take the tour.

the intake brought water in from upstream, into the star fort where the latrine was located, then continued to flow to the downriver outlet.

**Detroitnerd** · February-20-14, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by WaCoTS

there are still wooden pipes under Fort Wayne, which used to form the intake and outlet of the fort's sewage system, and probably date to the 1840s. a diver observed what was believed to be the intake, while diving for other artifacts in the area of the old docks [[now offshore of the Army CoE boatyard). of course this system has been non-functional for many decades, but you can still see down into the latrine pit if you come to the fort in the summer and take the tour.

the intake brought water in from upstream, into the star fort where the latrine was located, then continued to flow to the downriver outlet.

Fascinating! Thanks, WaCoTS!

**JBMcB** · February-20-14, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by WaCoTS

the intake brought water in from upstream, into the star fort where the latrine was located, then continued to flow to the downriver outlet.

Do plans exist for the fort? It would be interesting to overlay old plans and blueprints over existing maps. I think Google Maps lets you do this...

**Honky Tonk** · February-20-14, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by wacots

there are still wooden pipes under fort wayne, which used to form the intake and outlet of the fort's sewage system, and probably date to the 1840s. A diver observed what was believed to be the intake, while diving for other artifacts in the area of the old docks [[now offshore of the army coe boatyard). Of course this system has been non-functional for many decades, but you can still see down into the latrine pit if you come to the fort in the summer and take the tour.

The intake brought water in from upstream, into the star fort where the latrine was located, then continued to flow to the downriver outlet.

no #@$% !!!!!