Another Dumb Hypothetical: Would Downtown Detroit Be Better Now If...

[nain rouge]

Would Downtown Detroit be better now if New Center and the Michigan Central Station had been built within the downtown area, or as an extension of it? I understand that the building the latter downtown would've involved some complex logistics, but let's assume for the sake of argument that they figured out a way to basically do it.

Honestly, I've been thinking about this question every time I walk up Second Street. Although today it seems absurd to consider Grand Boulevard as a far off location, New Center was essentially the Southfield of its day, built at what was then the outer edges of the urban area. In fact, Joel Garreau, author of the landmark book Edge City, cites New Center as perhaps the first example of an "edge city". Clearly, the builders behind New Center picked the location with the automobile in mind, arguing that downtown was too expensive and crowded.

We've seen the good GM has done for downtown since the company relocated to the Renaissance Center. Just imagine if the GM HQ had been there the whole time! Undoubtedly, it would've saved at least a few buildings and historic businesses.

Michigan Central Station definitely would've been better served downtown. That whole office/hotel space above the main floor would've been fully utilized back in the day, whereas in Corktown, they never did find tenants for the topmost floors even during the 1920s. Plus, it would've dropped business travelers closer to where they actually had to go and encouraged commerce downtown.

As it stands, New Center and Michigan Central Station mark the beginning of the exodus from downtown. By the 1940s and early 1950s, Time and big magazines were already noting the obvious lack of investment in Detroit's central business district. To us, Grand Boulevard and Corktown are all part of the "inner city", but historically there was a clear distinction between those neighborhoods and downtown.

Seen through this lens, Southfield and Troy are the logical progression of what began roughly 100 years ago. Since the automobile, it's hard to find a time when we weren't trying to escape Detroit.

[Honky Tonk]

Would Downtown Detroit be better now if New Center and the Michigan Central Station had been built within the downtown area, or as an extension of it? I understand that the building the latter downtown would've involved some complex logistics, but let's assume for the sake of argument that they figured out a way to basically do it.

Honestly, I've been thinking about this question every time I walk up Second Street. Although today it seems absurd to consider Grand Boulevard as a far off location, New Center was essentially the Southfield of its day, built at what was then the outer edges of the urban area. In fact, Joel Garreau, author of the landmark book Edge City, cites New Center as perhaps the first example of an "edge city". Clearly, the builders behind New Center picked the location with the automobile in mind, arguing that downtown was too expensive and crowded.

We've seen the good GM has done for downtown since the company relocated to the Renaissance Center. Just imagine if the GM HQ had been there the whole time! Undoubtedly, it would've saved at least a few buildings and historic businesses.

Michigan Central Station definitely would've been better served downtown. That whole office/hotel space above the main floor would've been fully utilized back in the day, whereas in Corktown, they never did find tenants for the topmost floors even during the 1920s. Plus, it would've dropped business travelers closer to where they actually had to go and encouraged commerce downtown.

As it stands, New Center and Michigan Central Station mark the beginning of the exodus from downtown. By the 1940s and early 1950s, Time and big magazines were already noting the obvious lack of investment in Detroit's central business district. To us, Grand Boulevard and Corktown are all part of the "inner city", but historically there was a clear distinction between those neighborhoods and downtown.

Seen through this lens, Southfield and Troy are the logical progression of what began roughly 100 years ago. Since the automobile, it's hard to find a time when we weren't trying to escape Detroit.

You probably know this already, but there was a second train station, downtown, on 3rd and Jefferson, where WCCCD is now standing. I always thought MCS was put in a strange spot too, but it probably has something to do with tracks running towards OH and Canada.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

If MCS were directly downtown, I think it likely would have been torn down ages ago. Its isolation has helped spare it. Hudson's was torn down because it was viewed as a gigantic disincentive to build around it. No similar pressure [[or perceived pressure) around MCS. Of course, the office tower might have been better utilized rather than largely empty. But a gigantic rail station, regardless of location, made [[and makes) no sense for Detroit, once the interstate highway system was built and air travel became mainstream. But all speculation is a little pointless, really: every change made in the past would have had many subsequent consequences, for better or worse, foreseeable and unforeseeable.

[Khorasaurus]

Interesting hypothetical. I think downtown definitely would have benefited. It would have been bigger physically and would not have fallen so hard in the 80s, because GM would have been there continuously.

Cass Park and Brush Park would probably also have been better off, because the expanded downtown would have more or less encompassed them.

I think today's gentrification would have spread more quickly into Corktown, rather than what we now call Midtown, without New Center as an anchor on the north end. There would still have been redevelopment up to Wayne State, but not as dramatic, and not progressing as far north.

I would argue that MCS wouldn't be abandoned right now. It would also no longer be a train station. It would have lost its trains in the 80s, lost its office tenants in the 90s, and been redeveloped into apartments and event space in the 2000s.

Everything between 94 and Boston-Edison would have been much worse off, and would probably be largely vacant and blighted today. New Center has been a positive influence on that area, but there is still a lot of blight and abandonment today. It would be even worse without New Center.

All that said, the reason MCS and the New Center buildings were built where they were is because it was presumed Downtown Detroit would expand outward and reach them. It never did, although they do currently mark a couple of the end points of the "7.2 Square Miles" so it is kind of true that they mark the edges of "downtown" like they were supposed to.

[nain rouge]

All that said, the reason MCS and the New Center buildings were built where they were is because it was presumed Downtown Detroit would expand outward and reach them. It never did, although they do currently mark a couple of the end points of the "7.2 Square Miles" so it is kind of true that they mark the edges of "downtown" like they were supposed to.

Is there evidence for that? East Grand Boulevard, when created during the 1890s and 1900s, was thought to encompasses what would eventually be the outer limits of Detroit. Of course, by the time of the Fisher Building, we knew that wasn't the case, but did anyone really think downtown itself would extend out that far? Probably by then planners knew that less dense, automobile-oriented developments were the wave of the future. Actually, if you think about it, the lower levels of the Fisher were essentially the region's first mall.

[Khorasaurus]

Is there evidence for that? East Grand Boulevard, when created during the 1890s and 1900s, was thought to encompasses what would eventually be the outer limits of Detroit. Of course, by the time of the Fisher Building, we knew that wasn't the case, but did anyone really think downtown itself would extend out that far? Probably by then planners knew that less dense, automobile-[/COLOR]oriented developments were the wave of the future.

The Fisher Building and GM HQ and other New Center buildings are pretty dense. They aren't exactly auto-oriented.

My understanding was that Detroit was booming and developers thought there was money to be made in creating a second CBD - like Midtown Manhattan - and then building cultural institutions [[like the DIA) in between to attract development to fill in the gap.

[iheartthed]

I doubt that the location of MCS made much difference to the fate of downtown. But I could see how the fate of the MCS would be different if it were downtown. I think it would either be rehabbed or demolished by now.

If the city had built a subway rail line under Michigan Avenue like it planned to do then there probably wouldn't be much differentiation between downtown and Corktown by now.

[Bham1982]

The Fisher Building and GM HQ and other New Center buildings are pretty dense. They aren't exactly auto-oriented.

My understanding was that Detroit was booming and developers thought there was money to be made in creating a second CBD - like Midtown Manhattan - and then building cultural institutions [[like the DIA) in between to attract development to fill in the gap.

Your second point is absolutely right; developers thought that downtown would move north to the New Center, but it is definitely built in a more auto-oriented format than downtown.

Notice that the Fisher Building has its own in-house garage. That just wasn't done in prewar office space. I believe the other prewar buildings in the area also have on-site parking. Contrast with the Buhl, Guardian and the like, which were not built for the automobile.

[Khorasaurus]

Notice that the Fisher Building has its own in-house garage. That just wasn't done in prewar office space. I believe the other prewar buildings in the area also have on-site parking. Contrast with the Buhl, Guardian and the like, which were not built for the automobile.

Good point, although I'm not sure where the parking was originally supposed to be for the GM HQ/Cadillac Place.

Was there ever anything in what is now the big parking lot west of the Fisher Building? Or has that been parking ever since it was supposed to be the site of the other two Fisher towers?

It's still not exactly Southfield Town Center, which was built around its giant parking garage.

[Gistok]

Khorasaurus, you are correct. Detroit was booming in the 1900-1930 era, and people thought that the boom years were going to continue... and by that I mean that the area between downtown and New Center was going to fill in with higher density commercial space. Ditto for the area between downtown and the MCS.

Interestingly enough the largest of Detroit's neighborhood theatres was the Hollywood Theatre, which was located around 18th St. and Fort, built in 1927, in a Moorish movie palace style with 3,434 seats [[about 50 seats more than the Capitol Theatre [[DOH) ). The brothers who built the Hollywood built it so far from downtown because they fully expected downtown to continue expanding outward... something that never happened due to the Depression.

So the oversized Hollywood was pounded to rubble in the early 1960s, and is today a mere parking lot.

[Bham1982]

Detroit was the Dubai of its age. The expectation was that growth was limitless, and it was probably a reasonable expectation to think the city would grow to that extent outward.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I think they were right to think downtown would spread up to and include the New Center area. They were just several generations early.

[Bham1982]

I think they were right to think downtown would spread up to and include the New Center area. They were just several generations early.

Well we've gone way backward in the last 70 years, so how many generations are we talking here? Even downtown isn't being built now like New Center was built back then.

[Hermod]

Detroit had an early horsecar network and then quickly developed a streetcar network. These led to downtowns being able to expand in area using cheaper land for building.

[douglasm]

I would bet that there were too many logistical problems with setting MCS downtown, including access to the tunnel, and the lack of rail into the downtown area by the Michigan Central. I know at one time the MC had a downtown station, and I remember a freight house on Atwater near the foot of Second, but remember, except for Fort Street Station, and the GTW's Brush Street/Boat Yard/Ferry dock, there wasn't much rail in the central core of the city.