Belle Isle State Park

[Detroitnerd]

If this policy hurts anybody, it's bad policy. If it means that one hot family on the edge of poverty cannot come onto the island for a bit of refreshment, then it means that, despite all glib answers to the contrary, we have failed in the mission of providing for our neediest.

On the one hand, you have people saying it won't change a thing because OF COURSE Detroit's desperately poor people will be able to pay it, or walk or bike [[despite being perhaps crippled) or take the bus [[which doesn't exist). On the other hand, you have people delighted that the island will have fewer poor people on it. Sorry, y'all can't all be right.

[ABetterDetroit]

I think the most important thing for Detroit residents is that the city has 4 to 6 Million dollars more to spend on emergency responders now! immediately! and every year vs. financing admission to a run down park for free.

[rjlj]

"With the DNR and State Police assuming security responsibilities for the island, Detroit Police will be able to redeploy up to 22 officers to other city priorities." Belle Isle, Questions and Answers http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7...025---,00.html

I think the most important thing for Detroit residents is that the city has 4 to 6 Million dollars more to spend on emergency responders now! immediately! and every year vs. financing admission to a run down park for free.

[Khorasaurus]

If this policy hurts anybody, it's bad policy. If it means that one hot family on the edge of poverty cannot come onto the island for a bit of refreshment, then it means that, despite all glib answers to the contrary, we have failed in the mission of providing for our neediest.

On the one hand, you have people saying it won't change a thing because OF COURSE Detroit's desperately poor people will be able to pay it, or walk or bike [[despite being perhaps crippled) or take the bus [[which doesn't exist). On the other hand, you have people delighted that the island will have fewer poor people on it. Sorry, y'all can't all be right.

Anyone who is happy there will be "less poor people" is elitist at best, racist at worst.

But the fee is $11 per year. And it's charged to people who own cars and are already required to pay $65 or so every year for their registration. It increases that to $76 and also allows access to every other State Park. It's about as good of a deal as adding a "fee" can be.

The fact that we have people who are forced to pay for the upkeep of a car but might struggle to to come up with 91 additional cents per month shows what a disaster our public transportation system is. That's the way we're failing our poorest residents, not the nominal fee for an annual pass to take a car onto Belle Isle.

[bailey]

If this policy hurts anybody, it's bad policy.

yeah, because that is a logical standard. I mean what policy anywhere has zero negative effect on anyone?

The rest of your post has been repeatedly debunked and refuted.

[Detroitnerd]

yeah, because that is a logical standard. I mean what policy anywhere has zero negative effect on anyone?

The rest of your post has been repeatedly debunked and refuted.

Hi, Bailey. I think you're confused. It's quite possible to have a public good that's open to all without picking winners and losers and erecting hurdles.

As for your other comments, I think it's awfully cute to have my own personal peanut gallery in you, Bailey. It's adorable the way you follow me around and try to get my attention like that, sort of like a little yappy dog. I'd pet you if I could.

[Detroitnerd]

Anyone who is happy there will be "less poor people" is elitist at best, racist at worst.

But the fee is $11 per year. And it's charged to people who own cars and are already required to pay $65 or so every year for their registration. It increases that to $76 and also allows access to every other State Park. It's about as good of a deal as adding a "fee" can be.

The fact that we have people who are forced to pay for the upkeep of a car but might struggle to to come up with 91 additional cents per month shows what a disaster our public transportation system is. That's the way we're failing our poorest residents, not the nominal fee for an annual pass to take a car onto Belle Isle.

Welp, when you have to renew your registration, and scrape together the money to do so, asking even ten more dollars can be a lot. Then there's the matter of how many people have expired tags because they simply can't renew. I predict you will see whole families start getting detained and ticketed on Belle Isle and then the kids start crying, and tempers start flaring, and proud parents start yelling, and then people get arrested.

And, yeah, there are some real knuckleheads on this board who'll be overjoyed by all this.

[ABetterDetroit]

If this policy hurts anybody, it's bad policy. If it means that one hot family on the edge of poverty cannot come onto the island for a bit of refreshment, then it means that, despite all glib answers to the contrary, we have failed in the mission of providing for our neediest.

Yes, Detroit has completely and utterly FAILED "in the mission of providing for our neediest" Time to change that, finally.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

If this policy hurts anybody, it's bad policy. If it means that one hot family on the edge of poverty cannot come onto the island for a bit of refreshment, then it means that, despite all glib answers to the contrary, we have failed in the mission of providing for our neediest.

On the one hand, you have people saying it won't change a thing because OF COURSE Detroit's desperately poor people will be able to pay it, or walk or bike [[despite being perhaps crippled) or take the bus [[which doesn't exist). On the other hand, you have people delighted that the island will have fewer poor people on it. Sorry, y'all can't all be right.

What if it means one ADDITIONAL hot family visits the park because its less of a dump?

[Detroitnerd]

What if it means one ADDITIONAL hot family visits the park because its less of a dump?

Those who say it's a dump are overstating matters. The litter is picked up after busy weekends. I've never seen it in very bad shape for long. I think there are unstated goals and a lot of wishful thinking going on here. If people have money and resources, there's nothing keeping them from going to our flagship metroparks if they really must have lots of space and many recreation choices.

The other day, a friend of a very close friend, somebody I like and enjoy talking to, was very frank in saying that she was pleased fewer poor people would use the park. I bet those "poor folks" use the park more and enjoy it more than she does. What a bummer. But at least she's honest. I have more respect for her than I do for the glibsters who say, "Oh, scraping together $11 is as easy as two returnable deposits a week."

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

This is invented outrage. While I would prefer all parks be free, this is not a particularly tough blow to anyone. If someone can't come up with $11 once a year to drive the car they own, register, insure and buy gas for, well I will be blunt and say that person needs to be LOOKING FOR A JOB and not going to the park. Getting a job is better for your kids than a day in the park. Plus, every other city park is completely free.

[mwilbert]

Hi, Bailey. I think you're confused. It's quite possible to have a public good that's open to all without picking winners and losers and erecting hurdles.

But that isn't the same as not having winners and losers. You have to have some policy--the old Belle Isle had a set of rules and regulations and a level of maintenance and a level of enforcement. I don't doubt some people were better off with the old policies. I expect more people will be better off with the new ones, but as I and [[apparently) Bailey understand your notion of what is acceptable, the change in policy isn't OK regardless of how many people are better off, if it makes anyone worse off.

I don't think that is a reasonable criterion for deciding how to run a park, or probably anything else.

[old guy]

Plus, every other city park is completely free.

I'm only going by what photos I've seen of numerous parks in the city on this forum, but free parks in the city don't look extremely inviting.

[JohnnyFreddy]

HonkyTonk, did you even read my post? I praised the architecture and stated emphatically that converting it from a Potemkin aquarium open a few hours a week into something that would have more users all week long is a better tribute to it's architecture and history than pretending we have an aquarium, which is a shadow of it's former [[even then thin) self. I appreciate the nostalgia for it. I have wonderful memories of the Olympia Stadium; that doesn't mean the Wings should still be playing there. Nostalgia is an emotion, not a logical argument. A tiny, unimpressive aquarium that is almost always closed is not a sensible use of a great old building on an island with very limited capacity for further buildings. The island, at least in nice weather, gets thousands of visitors a day. On the one day a week the aquarium is open, it's patronized by just a fraction of them. I think there could be a use for the building that could enhance the park-going experience for thousands. Not the odd, 15-minute diversion for dozens twenty hours a month. I say: save the building and do something useful with it; make other plans for an aquarium.

mikeyinbrooklyn....do us ALL a big favor and stay in Brooklyn. Limit your interests and your stupid remarks to New York. You have absolutely NO IDEA what in Hell you're talking about. If you feel the actual FISH have NO IMPORTANCE AT ALL in this conversation, you are really missing any kind of point. This Aquarium was devastated and ruined by the Kwame Kilpatrick administration, closed, and used for storage for his summer patio furniture. All the fish were given away or left for dead. The glory of the Aquarium is slowly being restored, but it IS being restored. The volunteers that have taken on this project, this project of love, of self sacrifice, putting in MANY, many long hours and loving every minute of it. Love, sir. We here in Detroit don't want your concessions, or your sporting equipment, or to FILL the Island Park with....anything. This is NOT Central Park, this is not even Corrona Park. It's your attitude, and attitudes like yours....that are EXACTLY what the people of Detroit were afraid would happen, and against, when the State took over. I hope to Christ you are NOT on any kind of decision making panel regarding public interest. You're just plain WRONG. Sssssssshhhh.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

mikeyinbrooklyn....do us ALL a big favor and stay in Brooklyn. Limit your interests and your stupid remarks to New York. You have absolutely NO IDEA what in Hell you're talking about. If you feel the actual FISH have NO IMPORTANCE AT ALL in this conversation, you are really missing any kind of point. This Aquarium was devastated and ruined by the Kwame Kilpatrick administration, closed, and used for storage for his summer patio furniture. All the fish were given away or left for dead. The glory of the Aquarium is slowly being restored, but it IS being restored. The volunteers that have taken on this project, this project of love, of self sacrifice, putting in MANY, many long hours and loving every minute of it. Love, sir. We here in Detroit don't want your concessions, or your sporting equipment, or to FILL the Island Park with....anything. This is NOT Central Park, this is not even Corrona Park. It's your attitude, and attitudes like yours....that are EXACTLY what the people of Detroit were afraid would happen, and against, when the State took over. I hope to Christ you are NOT on any kind of decision making panel regarding public interest. You're just plain WRONG. Sssssssshhhh.

Bad news, JohnnyFreddy. I am from Detroit and I live in Detroit. I did live in NY for awhile, and did when I started posting here. But I am lurking among you. I work in Detroit. I visit parks in Detroit. I pay taxes in Detroit. And I am on a decision making panel regarding public interest: I am a voter. I do have strong opinions about most things, including Belle Isle and the various questions surrounding it. If you are interested in my opinions about NY's parks, I have opinions about them, too. Beyond that, it's nice to meet you.

[Gianni]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but are they going to have a "guard shack" at the entrance to the island? In other words, stopping cars as they enter and checking for the parks pass? Or are the state cops/rangers just going to be checking randomly and ticketing people who have taken their car onto the island without a pass? If the former, it would be a disaster during the summer, creating long backups on the bridge. I know from visiting other state parks, some do have a manned entrance, which depending on when you visit may or may not be staffed.

If no "guard shack," were will people be able to buy day pass on the island?

[Gistok]

MikeyinBrooklyn, I too am uninpressed by the aquarium as a destination. However every time I bring family here, we go to the Conservatory.... and every time the little ones insist on also seeing the Aquarium as well... even though we grownups have seen it countless times.

So perhaps we have to look at it from the perspective those who can appreciate it more. Kids love the place... they love staring at all the tanks and fish.

I don't think that the aquarium has a life as anything else, without destroying the integrity of the place. The Pewabic tiles are merely a frame for the fish tanks throughout the building. There is no other real use for it, other than its intended use, or its' previous use as a storage facility, which was appalling.

I don't see any other recreational use for this building... whos curved walls cause sound to bounce off them in an echo like fashion.

It's been a destination for 11 decades... I don't see why that should change just because a few of us [[me as well) are not as impressed as we once may have been...

[noise]

we have failed in the mission of providing for our neediest.

Is this the stated mission of Belle Isle?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Is this the stated mission of Belle Isle?

Of course it's not. And Detroitnerd's original statement is preposterous in a city where a couple of hundred thousand people live in public housing and/or eat off of one aid program or another. The only two ways in which we have failed to provide for our neediest are 1) Providing terrible educational opportunities to a large amount of students and 2) Establishing low expectations for life accomplishments for a large number of people. We treat too many people as if they are weak, helpless creatures, no better than a starving stray puppy. The nanny state is wrong not because of the cost to those funding it but because of the dehumanization of those persisting on it. Sorry for getting off of the Belle Isle topic...

[Hypestyles]

there needs to be regular bus service to Belle Isle.

[Honky Tonk]

Of course it's not. And Detroitnerd's original statement is preposterous in a city where a couple of hundred thousand people live in public housing and/or eat off of one aid program or another. The only two ways in which we have failed to provide for our neediest are 1) Providing terrible educational opportunities to a large amount of students and 2) Establishing low expectations for life accomplishments for a large number of people. We treat too many people as if they are weak, helpless creatures, no better than a starving stray puppy. The nanny state is wrong not because of the cost to those funding it but because of the dehumanization of those persisting on it. Sorry for getting off of the Belle Isle topic...

You mean things like this......

http://www.freep.com/article/2014021...day-incentives

[Bham1982]

Of course it's not. And Detroitnerd's original statement is preposterous in a city where a couple of hundred thousand people live in public housing and/or eat off of one aid program or another. The only two ways in which we have failed to provide for our neediest are 1) Providing terrible educational opportunities to a large amount of students and 2) Establishing low expectations for life accomplishments for a large number of people. We treat too many people as if they are weak, helpless creatures, no better than a starving stray puppy.

I think only #2, not #1. If you control for income, background and the like, I don't think schools in Detroit are particularly bad. The poor outcomes are from the population served, not the schools themselves. If we put kids from Detroit in Birmingham or GP schools, I doubt outcomes would be significantly better.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Gistok, I understand what you're saying. I disagree about repurposing the building: it could house many different things while preserving basic elements of it's architecture. And I think those other avenues should be explored to determine what the costs and benefits they would carry. I happen to think the aquarium will never serve many people there. It certainly doesn't now, I doubt it did in the years before the 2005 closure. It is also expensive to fix up/fill up with fish, operate for significant hours, and maintain. Tying it in to serve in some way the throngs who use the park for recreational and sports activities on the island just seems like a better use of the building. If an analysis could show that it could be financially kept afloat in the long run, and that it would become a significant asset to a great many, it wouldn't bother me. It just seems like right now a great building on a recreational island with lots of potential is being held down because a small number of people have wistful memories. Does anyone know if there is some sort of "master plan" for the aquarium spelling out costs, improvements, current and potential visitor numbers? While I have an existing opinion, my mind is open to being changed with further information.

[Wesley Mouch]

So, everybody enjoying the park without all the poor people?

They were smart to institute it during the coldest time of the year. I can't wait until that first hot day when people try getting on the island and are PISSED. By then they'll probably have a Starbucks at the Casino.

Yay! Income-based segregation is color-blind and progressive!

DN, quite the bitching. And bring some fact. If there's a reduction in park use by 'poor people', let's hear the facts and then think about solutions.

Even if there is a drop in 'poor people' at the park, that's not necessarily such a big deal. A society fixes things. Poor people shouldn't stay poor. Social programs help people. Charities help people. Government helps people. People help people... yes -- even poor people.

So bring a solution -- not just a bitch.

And while I'm typing... I like the existing aquarium. Not everything needs to be 'world-class tourist destination'. Sometimes small is better. I haven't been there since my youth, but I have very fond memories and wish those fond memories on others, including those 'poor people' you pity so much.

[Honky Tonk]

And while I'm typing... I like the existing aquarium. Not everything needs to be 'world-class tourist destination'. Sometimes small is better. I haven't been there since my youth, but I have very fond memories and wish those fond memories on others, including those 'poor people' you pity so much.

Please read my post about attending, and especially the part about dropping a $20 into the slotted barrel. Thank you.