Lawsuit Challenging Michigan EM Law Proceeds

**Baselinepunk** · February-07-14, 01:23 PM

Win for Democracy:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...aw-can-proceed

**313WX** · February-07-14, 01:50 PM

What I don't understand is how can Kevyn Orr get a free pass to operate under the guise of a law that's unconstiturional, if it's ruled to be unconstitutional.

My guess is the Sugar Law Center will wait for the court ruling by Judge Steeh and if the EM law is ruled unconstitutional, they'll use that to go above Judge Rhodes head [[up to the Supreme Court) to have Orr removed [[if that's possible).

But the bullshit continues to stink to the high heavens...

**brizee** · February-07-14, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

What I don't understand is how can Kevyn Orr get a free pass to operate under the guise of a law that's unconstiturional, if it's ruled to be unconstitutional.

Shit continues to stink to the high heavens...

It doesn't make alot of sense.

I GUESS I can see the judge's point in that it would interfere with the bankruptcy, but the EM initiated it and if the entire mechanism wasn't kosher...

Whatever.

Rhodes has said contradicted and talked over himself so many times it doesn't matter.

Snyder and the republicans are gonna what they want hell or high water anyway.

**Honky Tonk** · February-07-14, 02:03 PM

Too bad, just when things were starting to look up for the City. Back to business as usual.

**313WX** · February-07-14, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

It doesn't make alot of sense.

I GUESS I can see the judge's point in that it would interfere with the bankruptcy, but the EM initiated it and if the entire mechanism wasn't kosher...

Whatever.

Rhodes has said contradicted and talked over himself so many times it doesn't matter.

Snyder and the republicans are gonna what they want hell or high water anyway.

We'll see I guess. Rhodes may have just opened Pandora's Box.

It's also possible that the law could be ruled unconstitutional, but not retroactively.

As far as your last sentence, but of course. I'm sure they have yet another replacement law already drafted and "legally reviewed" by Miller Canfield sitting in the wings.

**YounginDetroit** · February-07-14, 02:35 PM

Right cause Detroit has had nothing but class A mayors and city councilmen and women. Don't get me wrong in happy Duggan won but still i have absolutely no faith in most of the derelicts that have the opportunity to vote in thus city. Kevyn Orr should stay until bankruptcy is over. We dontdeserve to have a vote in this city.

**Detroit Stylin** · February-09-14, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by YounginDetroit

Right cause Detroit has had nothing but class A mayors and city councilmen and women. Don't get me wrong in happy Duggan won but still i have absolutely no faith in most of the derelicts that have the opportunity to vote in thus city. Kevyn Orr should stay until bankruptcy is over. We dontdeserve to have a vote in this city.

So who exactly are these "derelicts" of which you speak?

**Danny** · February-09-14, 08:45 AM

Oh enough with the EM laws and appeals! Getting rid of EM's will not make any Michigan cities financial problems go away. Just put it rest and move on.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

You will find no truth in politics.

please remember Neda, George Stinney, Rodney King, Guy Fawkes and 99 Percenters.

**Gistok** · February-10-14, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Too bad, just when things were starting to look up for the City. Back to business as usual.

Let them enjoy their Pyrrhic victory.... by the time the Federal Courts act, the entire bankrupcy will be a fait accompli....

**professorscott** · February-10-14, 02:04 PM

I am not a lawyer but I will be astonished if Ms. Romano is able to carry the day, based on what she frames as the issue: "The right of Michigan voters to choose their leaders is so fundamental that we have to remain vigilant and steadfast".

First of all, Michigan chose its leaders by voting for them, and the leaders that the voters of Michigan elected enacted the statute under which Mr. Orr operates.

Second of all, Mr. Orr did not replace the elected leadership of Detroit; during his tenure, an election was held in which the voters elected Mayor Duggan, who serves, and a council, which serves. The law moved authority around within municipalities: when an emergency manager is appointed, he has certain authority that otherwise would go to elected officials.

Third, municipalities in Michigan are subordinated to the State, are creations of the State and can be utterly demolished by the State. It hasn't happened to any cities that I know of, and I don't know if a mechanism is in place to do it, but it has certainly happened to school districts.

Note that none of my points even come anywhere near the matter of the chaos that would reign if these folks' fantasies come true: the bankruptcy collapses; Detroit is utterly broke and can't begin to pay its debts; the lawsuits pile one atop the other and Detroit's very limited resources must now go to pursuing multiple attempts at defense, many of which will fail. Boy, if the pensioners think they're getting the short end of the stick now, wait until there is no stick at all.

No, I really believe the current situation will continue along unimpeded, and thank God for that. Any alternative is going to be catastrophically worse.

**Wesley Mouch** · February-10-14, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I am not a lawyer but I will be astonished if Ms. Romano is able to carry the day, based on what she frames as the issue: "The right of Michigan voters to choose their leaders is so fundamental that we have to remain vigilant and steadfast".

First of all, Michigan chose its leaders by voting for them, and the leaders that the voters of Michigan elected enacted the statute under which Mr. Orr operates.

Second of all, Mr. Orr did not replace the elected leadership of Detroit; during his tenure, an election was held in which the voters elected Mayor Duggan, who serves, and a council, which serves. The law moved authority around within municipalities: when an emergency manager is appointed, he has certain authority that otherwise would go to elected officials.

Third, municipalities in Michigan are subordinated to the State, are creations of the State and can be utterly demolished by the State. It hasn't happened to any cities that I know of, and I don't know if a mechanism is in place to do it, but it has certainly happened to school districts.

Note that none of my points even come anywhere near the matter of the chaos that would reign if these folks' fantasies come true: the bankruptcy collapses; Detroit is utterly broke and can't begin to pay its debts; the lawsuits pile one atop the other and Detroit's very limited resources must now go to pursuing multiple attempts at defense, many of which will fail. Boy, if the pensioners think they're getting the short end of the stick now, wait until there is no stick at all.

No, I really believe the current situation will continue along unimpeded, and thank God for that. Any alternative is going to be catastrophically worse.

Well said. I think the pensioner's leaders are just getting bad advice... and the pensioners themselves somehow think that the Unions are looking out for their best interests. They are not. I hope the pensioners realize this. They would toss the current pensioners to the wolves for 5 cents an hour today.

btw, I don't blame the Unions any more than I blame wolves for eating little girls with red bonnets. Its what we designed them to do. Think only of themselves. About what they accuse corporations of.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · February-10-14, 04:18 PM

Perfectly put, Professor. Some people will grasp at straws. There will probably be lawsuits against/about the EM law and the bankruptcy for many, many years to come. The people who are more offended by the lawful attempt to fix a disaster than they are by the disaster lack any moral credibility; of course their arguments also lack logic. If they aren't careful, Cheney will send in the black helicopters to set up fracking wells all over the city, most prominently in poorer neighborhoods.

But seriously, in spite of the lawsuits and protests, the disgruntled will get to live in a better, solvent city. When Orr is done here in Detroit, he should hold a press conference, and say only "You're Welcome."

**ABetterDetroit** · February-10-14, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

Oh enough with the EM laws and appeals! Getting rid of EM's will not make any Michigan cities financial problems go away. Just put it rest and move on.

Bankruptcy actually does make financial problems go away.

If a city CAN NOT do both and HAS to choose, what is more important taking care of their creditors? or taking care of there citizens?

**Richard** · February-11-14, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Bankruptcy actually does make financial problems go away.

If a city CAN NOT do both and HAS to choose, what is more important taking care of their creditors? or taking care of there citizens?

There needs to be a middle ground,as both creditors and residents are needed for a strong future.

Some residents are also creditors.

**compn** · February-11-14, 08:53 AM

i dont doubt that the state has the power to replace mayors and take power away from cities.

seriously, just call kevin orr the mayor and bing/duggan the co-mayor-elect or whatever. arguing about whos the boss is moot.

but everyone MUST be upset how the entire state of voters specifically voted down the EM law and then the legislators turned around and put in a new EM law. thats the part that is unconstitutional and anti-democratic and anti-voter.

whens the last time you saw a legislature be that much against the people of the state?

**Honky Tonk** · February-11-14, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by compn

i dont doubt that the state has the power to replace mayors and take power away from cities.

seriously, just call kevin orr the mayor and bing/duggan the co-mayor-elect or whatever. arguing about whos the boss is moot.

but everyone MUST be upset how the entire state of voters specifically voted down the EM law and then the legislators turned around and put in a new EM law. thats the part that is unconstitutional and anti-democratic and anti-voter.

whens the last time you saw a legislature be that much against the people of the state?

Kwamie Kilpatrick.

**aj3647** · February-11-14, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Bankruptcy actually does make financial problems go away.

If a city CAN NOT do both and HAS to choose, what is more important taking care of their creditors? or taking care of there citizens?

Where would the citizens be without the tens of billions in dollars borrowed from creditors over the years?

**bailey** · February-11-14, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by compn

i dont doubt that the state has the power to replace mayors and take power away from cities.

seriously, just call kevin orr the mayor and bing/duggan the co-mayor-elect or whatever. arguing about whos the boss is moot.

but everyone MUST be upset how the entire state of voters specifically voted down the EM law and then the legislators turned around and put in a new EM law. thats the part that is unconstitutional and anti-democratic and anti-voter.

whens the last time you saw a legislature be that much against the people of the state?

The people of the state have an answer to that alleged overreach and its in about 8 months and then again in 2016. Somehow I don't think we'll see much turn over unless due to term limitations.

**Wesley Mouch** · February-11-14, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Bankruptcy actually does make financial problems go away.

If a city CAN NOT do both and HAS to choose, what is more important taking care of their creditors? or taking care of there citizens?

Take care to distinguish between two 'financial problems'.

#1 is lack of money to fulfill the promises you have made to pay.

#2 is the inability lack of real income to cover your real daily costs.

The 'problem fixing' of which you speak is only #1. Sure, you can make debts to pensioners and creditors go away with #1. Fixing #2 is the only solution that keeps you away from returning, and crucially the only solution that lets you provide decent services and be a good place to live.

**bailey** · February-11-14, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Take care to distinguish between two 'financial problems'.

#1 is lack of money to fulfill the promises you have made to pay.

#2 is the inability lack of real income to cover your real daily costs.

The 'problem fixing' of which you speak is only #1. Sure, you can make debts to pensioners and creditors go away with #1. Fixing #2 is the only solution that keeps you away from returning, and crucially the only solution that lets you provide decent services and be a good place to live.

Yup. However, if you're throwing 80 cents of every new dollar at #1... not doing that anymore goes a long way to fixing #2.

**Wesley Mouch** · February-11-14, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by compn

i dont doubt that the state has the power to replace mayors and take power away from cities.

seriously, just call kevin orr the mayor and bing/duggan the co-mayor-elect or whatever. arguing about whos the boss is moot.

but everyone MUST be upset how the entire state of voters specifically voted down the EM law and then the legislators turned around and put in a new EM law. thats the part that is unconstitutional and anti-democratic and anti-voter.

whens the last time you saw a legislature be that much against the people of the state?

I do agree that cramming an EM bill down the throats of the voters was at the edge of responsible actions. But the city's actions for the last couple decades has long been past the edge of responsible action.

Voters voted. And they got legislators. Those legislators decided it was more important to get this law right to fix Detroit than it was to respect the intent of the majority of voters who elected them. When voters deny reality, somethings gotta give. The legislators decided it was better to break a few eggs than let Detroit go through the real pain of bankruptcy without an Emergency Manager. Yes, it was a stretch of voters intentions using technicalities. But that happens all day long in politics. Do you think voters would approve half the bills passed if they could individually vote on each and every one?

I mostly agree with the voters, however. If the citizens wanted to let Detroit rot and die through painful bankruptcy without a powerful representation, I think we should have allow them the right to effectively Kevorkian themselves.

**BankruptcyGuy** · February-11-14, 03:27 PM

As I think I mentioned before, the lawsuit has a Blutarsky [[0.0) percent chance of succeeding, for the following reasons:

First, cities here and everywhere are creatures of the state. The state can give power, and take it away. Limitations exist as to protected classes, but no facial challenge to the law exists.

Second, there is a concept in jurisprudence of avoiding "political questions." If the solution is political [[change the law, elect new reps), the judges won't step in, at a risk of politicizing the judiciary. That concept has eroded over recent years, but probably is still in play here.

Finally, I think the EM law stands on practical grounds--if the local government refuses to live within its means, the state must have some ability to replace those officials. If the state can't, what's to stop cities from borrowing and borrowing and simply not repaying the money? Or from making pension promises it can't keep? Or [[using Wayne County as an example) having hugely bloating executive staffs with astronomical benefits? What is the state's recourse?

Just my $0.02.

**ABetterDetroit** · February-11-14, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Yup. However, if you're throwing 80 cents of every new dollar at #1... not doing that anymore goes a long way to fixing #2.

Beat me to it. Exactly.

In fact Detroit's net income potential is only looking up from the bottom it crashed into, but paying off 18 billion of debt is not realistic.

Detroit needs to get 100% in the business of supplying immediate quality of life services to ALL of its citizens, not to paying off its creditors whether they be a bank, a citizen or smokey the bear.

**Honky Tonk** · February-11-14, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Beat me to it. Exactly.

In fact Detroit's net income potential is only looking up from the bottom it crashed into, but paying off 18 billion of debt is not realistic.

Detroit needs to get 100% in the business of supplying immediate quality of life services to ALL of its citizens, not to paying off its creditors whether they be a bank, a citizen or smokey the bear.

Capitol idea! Detroit should just stiff all of it's creditors and pensioners, and supply immediate quality of life services to ALL of its citizens! With what? How? Now Detroit has a reputation of stiffing both pensioners and creditors. Who is going to come to work for Detroit? Who's going to give Detroit tires for the buses, computers for the administrators, GASOLINE for the vehicles, bullets for the cops guns? Would you? Would you extend credit to someone who just stiffed everyone they owed money to? If your answer is yes, I'd like to borrow $50 please. Not even Smokey the Bear would show up to put out a Forest fire, without cash up front.

**Wesley Mouch** · February-11-14, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by BankruptcyGuy

...Finally, I think the EM law stands on practical grounds--if the local government refuses to live within its means, the state must have some ability to replace those officials. If the state can't, what's to stop cities from borrowing and borrowing and simply not repaying the money? Or from making pension promises it can't keep? Or [[using Wayne County as an example) having hugely bloating executive staffs with astronomical benefits? What is the state's recourse?

The argument against the EM is mostly a denial of circumstances. [[Pretty hard to imagine believing that, but believe they do seem to.)

Your hypothetical is clear. I agree. You must have a mechanism that corrects when local officials avoid reality.

Does anyone anti-EM care to answer the questions posted by BG?