Let's talk about how the roads around here are PISS POOR, and an embarassment.

[Dan Wesson]

And YOUR underhanded governor wants to put the road repairs on the backs of the tax payers AGAIN, by raising the gas tax and vehicle registration fees. What a concept!! Just keep eroding away the people of the state of michigan's income by suggesting THEY be responsible for everything state government should be.

You're kidding aren't you?

[GP For Life]

Okay let's play your game!

A graduated income tax is what you really prefer.

And if the shit really hits the fan a good old property tax is your back up.

Or you can always find what you really need between the couch cushions.!!!

It's a dime a gallon on gas or diesel no exceptions no get out of jail free card, farms and boats or the off road toys still use the roads. Ain't life a bitch pay your F-ing dime, nothing to see here folks move on....

I am really not entirely opposed to consumption taxes, especially in this example. I mean, the more gas you burn, the more road destruction you cause [[in theory). My problem with it is that it disproportionately affects the working poor, or just poor in general. The working poor especially. You have to get to work, right? But your counterpoint is very relevant, how else are we going to pay for it? I would do away with the gas tax and replace it by adjusting the income tax.

As for graduating the income tax scale, basically, yes. That's what I prefer, just how it is graduated. Less deductions and a lower maximum tax bracket. Followed by a much higher standard deduction and/or starting the brackets at a much higher income level and then smaller steps from there.

[Hermod]

As for graduating the income tax scale, basically, yes. That's what I prefer, just how it is graduated. Less deductions and a lower maximum tax bracket. Followed by a much higher standard deduction and/or starting the brackets at a much higher income level and then smaller steps from there.

And instead of moving to Traverse City or Houghton Lake, the high income retirees will bail out to Tennessee, North Carolina, Texas, or Florida.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

You're kidding aren't you?

You must be a Snyder apologist.

[rb336]

As for graduating the income tax scale, basically, yes. That's what I prefer, just how it is graduated. Less deductions and a lower maximum tax bracket. Followed by a much higher standard deduction and/or starting the brackets at a much higher income level and then smaller steps from there.

I like Jefferson’s idea on taxation: “Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometric progression as they rise.”

Further, in almost every statement he made on taxes, his preference was that they be imposed on the wealthiest, which was why he supported high tariffs on imported goods which, at the time, were almost wholly consumed by the wealthy

[Hermod]

"Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that fellow behind the tree."

Sen Russell Long [[D-La)

[Wesley Mouch]

I am really not entirely opposed to consumption taxes, especially in this example. I mean, the more gas you burn, the more road destruction you cause [[in theory). My problem with it is that it disproportionately affects the working poor, or just poor in general. The working poor especially. You have to get to work, right? But your counterpoint is very relevant, how else are we going to pay for it? I would do away with the gas tax and replace it by adjusting the income tax.

As for graduating the income tax scale, basically, yes. That's what I prefer, just how it is graduated. Less deductions and a lower maximum tax bracket. Followed by a much higher standard deduction and/or starting the brackets at a much higher income level and then smaller steps from there.

Well, I'm not much for defending the poor, as we all know. [[Because our defense of them seems to keep them trapped, but that's another story.)

Gas taxes do NOT disproportionately hurt the poor. Just increase the EIC [[Earned Income Credit) by the reasonable amount of gas a poor person needs to drive a reasonable distance, and voila. You're suddenly 'fair'.

The EIC is a wonderful tool. Better than 50% of our government in helping the poor. We should use it more.

Then we should eliminate mortgage deduction [[truly a benefit to the wealthy more than working-class) and the cap on SS earnings [[come on, its not insurance, its really wealth redistribution and a very simple mechanism).

[Dan Wesson]

You must be a Snyder apologist.

Now I know you're kidding!

[GP For Life]

Well, I'm not much for defending the poor, as we all know. [[Because our defense of them seems to keep them trapped, but that's another story.)

Gas taxes do NOT disproportionately hurt the poor. Just increase the EIC [[Earned Income Credit) by the reasonable amount of gas a poor person needs to drive a reasonable distance, and voila. You're suddenly 'fair'.

The EIC is a wonderful tool. Better than 50% of our government in helping the poor. We should use it more.

Then we should eliminate mortgage deduction [[truly a benefit to the wealthy more than working-class) and the cap on SS earnings [[come on, its not insurance, its really wealth redistribution and a very simple mechanism).

The EIC only works at the end of the tax year. Doesn't help the line guy who just got laid off and has to drive 20 miles to some crap job that paid half as much as his old job, maybe after weeks/months of being unemployed.

Also, why should that guy have to rely on the government to get to his job is beyond me.

[Dan Wesson]

After reading this entire thread I now know absolutely why the roads are the way they are...

Politics!

The art and science of who get's what, where, how and when.

[DetroitPlanner]

Also, why should that guy have to rely on the government to get to his job is beyond me.

Everyone who takes transit, walks on a public sidewalk, or drives to work depends on the government to get to their jobs! These are not owned by private businesses.

[ABetterDetroit]

And instead of moving to Traverse City or Houghton Lake, the high income retirees will bail out to Tennessee, North Carolina, Texas, or Florida.

What? You mean we have to actually compete with other states
to keep business and residents in Michigan? Whoa that's amazing, wonder if anyone in Lansing knows this?

Fix the roads elected idiots! Now! .10 cents a gallon will be plenty to get it started.

[KJ5]

This thread needs to be renamed. I couldn't find one mention of the piss puddles that plague our roads in this area. DaveWindsor would be ashamed of all of you.

[Honky Tonk]

What? You mean we have to actually compete with other states
to keep business and residents in Michigan? Whoa that's amazing, wonder if anyone in Lansing knows this?

Fix the roads elected idiots! Now! .10 cents a gallon will be plenty to get it started.

Though I share your enthusiasm and agree, I am getting tired of being taxed to death. Taxing retirees, a big screw-up on Ricky's part, IMO, leaves me no choice other then to seek a non-retiree tax State for retirement. I'd be more for the State going through the books and seeing what money can be shaken loose, or spending curtailed, to pay for road repairs. Back to the post about putting people on assistance to work, what's wrong with that? Not everyone on assistance CAN work, but I bet more then a few can and are willing. You're spending the money anyway, have people do something to earn it.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Though I share your enthusiasm and agree, I am getting tired of being taxed to death. Taxing retirees, a big screw-up on Ricky's part, IMO, leaves me no choice other then to seek a non-retiree tax State for retirement. I'd be more for the State going through the books and seeing what money can be shaken loose, or spending curtailed, to pay for road repairs. Back to the post about putting people on assistance to work, what's wrong with that? Not everyone on assistance CAN work, but I bet more then a few can and are willing. You're spending the money anyway, have people do something to earn it.

+1 and then some. The "Nerd" is doing more harm than good for this state.

[noise]

Though I share your enthusiasm and agree, I am getting tired of being taxed to death. Taxing retirees, a big screw-up on Ricky's part, IMO, leaves me no choice other then to seek a non-retiree tax State for retirement. I'd be more for the State going through the books and seeing what money can be shaken loose, or spending curtailed, to pay for road repairs. Back to the post about putting people on assistance to work, what's wrong with that? Not everyone on assistance CAN work, but I bet more then a few can and are willing. You're spending the money anyway, have people do something to earn it.

Gas is cheaper and the roads remarkably better in Ohio.

[GP For Life]

Everyone who takes transit, walks on a public sidewalk, or drives to work depends on the government to get to their jobs! These are not owned by private businesses.

I thought it was pretty-well implied, but apparently it wasn't, so I'll rephrase it.

Why should a person have to rely on individual government funds transfers to get to work is beyond me.

[ABetterDetroit]

Gas is cheaper and the roads remarkably better in Ohio.

Wholesale gas is cheaper in Ohio, their tax structure is different and they have toll roads.

How each state funds it's road systems are not the same, but the real difference is some states get the job done where Michigan does not. They just FAIL on roads indefinitely.

This is one of those examples of how F-dup government is in this state when they can not solve a straight forward problem like god awful roads. How would they solve a problem that doesn't have a clear and obvious solution?

[DetroitPlanner]

Wholesale gas is cheaper in Ohio, their tax structure is different and they have toll roads.

How each state funds it's road systems are not the same, but the real difference is some states get the job done where Michigan does not. They just FAIL on roads indefinitely.

This is one of those examples of how F-dup government is in this state when they can not solve a straight forward problem like god awful roads. How would they solve a problem that doesn't have a clear and obvious solution?

Gas is cheaper in Ohio, but it has a higher gas tax. How can this be?

Michigan has a sales tax of six percent it charges above the ad-valorem tax of 19 cents. Only the 19 cents goes to transportation. The six percent goes to fund the State's general fund and schools.

Here is something interesting as well. The general price you pay on a gallon of gas goes down when you get close to the Ohio border. Places like Temperance you can get gas for only a few cents more than in
Toledo.

[noise]

Wholesale gas is cheaper in Ohio, their tax structure is different and they have toll roads.

How each state funds it's road systems are not the same, but the real difference is some states get the job done where Michigan does not. They just FAIL on roads indefinitely.

This is one of those examples of how F-dup government is in this state when they can not solve a straight forward problem like god awful roads. How would they solve a problem that doesn't have a clear and obvious solution?

Certainly and our point is the same: some states get the job done where Michigan does not.

I only used Ohio due to proximity.

[RO_Resident]

Wholesale gas is cheaper in Ohio, their tax structure is different and they have toll roads.

How each state funds it's road systems are not the same, but the real difference is some states get the job done where Michigan does not. They just FAIL on roads indefinitely.

This is one of those examples of how F-dup government is in this state when they can not solve a straight forward problem like god awful roads. How would they solve a problem that doesn't have a clear and obvious solution?

For one, there isn't enough money to go around. For the past century, Michigan [[and just about every other state) had a 'build it, worry about maintenance later' attitude.

It has only been in the last decade or so that they learned that the traditional strategy is unsustainable.

Road owners are finally learning that their 'worst-first' strategy is going to cost them more in the long-run.

Contractors are learning to adjust, too. They like long-term, heavy construction that guarantees work over several months, or years. Now, there is emphasis on quicker, less intensive maintenance while roads are still in relatively good shape. Contractors have to adapt to projects that may only be days, or weeks long.

Doing the right fix at the right time results in roads being in better shape over the long haul.

Another thing, there are roughly 614 agencies that get a cut of the gas tax in Michigan. MDOT and the 83 counties get a cut, but that leaves ~530 cities and villages that get a share, too.

[RO_Resident]

Certainly and our point is the same: some states get the job done where Michigan does not.

I only used Ohio due to proximity.

No doubt I-75 is in much better shape in Ohio. However, get off some of the main roads, and you will see the same sort of issues you see in Michigan. Secondary routes show overloading due to traffic, poor drainage, or other issues.

A couple of years ago, we took the back way to Cedar Point. You would be hard-pressed to see any difference in the quality of roads between the two states.

Certainly not a random sample, but Ohio's roads aren't always 'paved in gold'.

[Hypestyles]

the Greenfield stretch from 8 mile to 10 mile is treacherous. Gah! what entity has oversight over that? is it the state or the county? [[or the municipality?)

[RO_Resident]

the Greenfield stretch from 8 mile to 10 mile is treacherous. Gah! what entity has oversight over that? is it the state or the county? [[or the municipality?)

Oakland County has jurisdiction over Greenfield from 8 Mile to 10 Mile.

Meijer Drive from Coolidge to Delemere is so bad cars and buses are lucky to go 15 mph down the road. A lot of cars were going down the center turn lane. It is that bad.

The Meijer parking lot in Royal Oak has frost heave of ~2 to 3 inches. Once the weather breaks, the lot will become an instant gravel surface. They are looking at a huge bill to repave that portion of the lot.

[softailrider]

Oakland County has jurisdiction over Greenfield from 8 Mile to 10 Mile.

Meijer Drive from Coolidge to Delemere is so bad cars and buses are lucky to go 15 mph down the road. A lot of cars were going down the center turn lane. It is that bad.

The Meijer parking lot in Royal Oak has frost heave of ~2 to 3 inches. Once the weather breaks, the lot will become an instant gravel surface. They are looking at a huge bill to repave that portion of the lot.

I was on Meijer Drive today, you have to drive down the center lane. The other 2 lanes are not passable.