Let's talk about how the roads around here are PISS POOR, and an embarassment.

[bailey]

Except when the starving proletariat break down your door, rape your sister, and string you up by your basketball hoop in front of the garage. Perhaps during your last moments alive, you may realize you should have funded social programs a bit more. No worries. Happened to Louis XVI, so you'd be in good company.

Agreed.. the only real purpose of those programs is to placate and buy civil peace. none are actually meant to address "poverty".

however, as they say...you can pay the Danegeld, but you never get rid of the Danes. so maybe GP has a bit of a point there.

[Detroitnerd]

It absolutely does not need to be expanded. There was a third option on the table with MDOT: Do nothing but required maintenance. You're also engaging in a little rhetorical sleight of hand here, calling it a reconstruction. If you were to take my house and turn it into the Taj Fucking Mahal, I bet that would be a reconstruction too, huh?

Anyway, take it outside. You don't have to pop in and stick up for the poor underserved freeway interests every time somebody takes a much-needed shot at the plan to hack a barrier through the middle of the Midtown area. We're talking about the fact that Michigan's roads are going to shit ...

... but you know WHY they're going to shit? Because MDOT keeps ENLARGING roads when it can't even afford to fund the FUCKING MAINTENANCE on the roads it ALREADY HAS! Which brings us back to how FUCKING STUPID this EXPANSION plan is. Just repair the goddamn bridges and move on.

[bailey]

How about this? Instead of complaining about which to fund, we fund both, with the same dollars.

This is actually serious. As a condition of receiving state assistance recipients have to serve two days a week at their local county road commission? The amount of time they serve will gradually increase to full-time [[over years) the longer they remain on public assistance.

Bam! Better roads and less proles on the public dole, yo! Obviously, not for those on disability, etc.

Edit: Another thing I had suggested before is sending prisoners out on the roads with wheelbarrows full of cold patch. Similar idea.

In both those scenarios...the rub is in "work for welfare" and chain gangs, you've now just replaced paying jobs with indentured servitude and created a whole new sector of unemployment.

[downtownguy]

We just need to reallocate the tax revenue from social programs to roads. Roads benefit everyone, whereas social programs only benefit some.

Wow.

Keep that up and you're going to create a stereotype here that all GP'ers think like you.

[Bham1982]

Wow.

Keep that up and you're going to create a stereotype here that all GP'ers think like you.

His comment was factual, and not really political. Who doesn't directly benefit from road maintenance? In contrast, plenty of people derive no benefit from certain social programs.

[GP For Life]

In both those scenarios...the rub is in "work for welfare" and chain gangs, you've now just replaced paying jobs with indentured servitude and created a whole new sector of unemployment.

They actually do this in places like Denmark, where abject socialism actually works. We already have an underclass of ne'er-do-wells, we might as put them to use.

Also, keep in mind I am not talking about workhouse program. It starts off as almost a volunteer program then ramps up to a serious disincentive, but all while maintaining the same level of benefits.

We need to redirect the underclasses in America to more productive pursuits.

[mikeg19]

I've finally been bitten by the pothole fairy after driving Michigan roads for the past decade. Of course this happened on my month old car in which the rim is $650 and not the car I turned in. I'm really beginning to question my sanity, as I actually continue to decide to live in this state.


I think, if I'm not mistaken, our Governor has been trying for 3 years to add $1B per year to road funding for the next decade merely in order to get our shit together, but the bill is blocked in the state house or legislature.

Two years ago, Snyder proposed raising $1.2 billion a year for a decade to get our roads back in shape. This wasn’t to add new roads; just the minimum needed to get the old ones back where they should be. He would have done this partly by raising car and truck registration fees, but mostly by a 9-cent-a gallon boost in the gas tax. I thought he needed to raise fees more on commercial trucks, the ones that pound the roads to dust, and less on passenger cars. But raising the gas tax made perfect sense, even from a libertarian point of view:
The more you used the roads, the more you would pay. The price of gas fluctuates so much anyway that almost nobody would notice nine cents. But the legislative leaders ignored the governor, even though they’re all Republicans.
Last year, Snyder pushed harder to get money to fix our roads. Transportation experts agreed that if road repair were put off only a few years, the damage would cost twice as much to fix.
Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville [[R-Monroe) essentially sneered at the governor, and indicated there was no way he would get the money needed to fix the roads.
For once, Randy was as good as his word. Soon thereafter, a trucking magazine rated Michigan’s roads the second worst in the nation. This year, Snyder is running for re-election, and appeared to have given up trying to fix the roads.

It's the same old shit. Everybody wants everything for nothing. In order to fix the roads, we need to raise money somehow. How the hell do people think that's going to happen? Fucking magic?

[GP For Life]

His comment was factual, and not really political. Who doesn't directly benefit from road maintenance? In contrast, plenty of people derive no benefit from certain social programs.

Here's what gets me. We've paid for years and years for roads and the roads have always been crappy because the money has been diverted for other things, or just not budgeted correctly. Now, peoples' solution is "just give us more money, then we'll fix your roads".

Well, I don't buy that. How about we reallocate resources from luxuries [[like welfare programs) to pay for our roads?

How about we take care of two problems at once?

Everyone thinks the answer is just spend more money. F-that.

[Detroitnerd]

They actually do this in places like Denmark, where abject socialism actually works. We already have an underclass of ne'er-do-wells, we might as put them to use.

Also, keep in mind I am not talking about workhouse program. It starts off as almost a volunteer program then ramps up to a serious disincentive, but all while maintaining the same level of benefits.

We need to redirect the underclasses in America to more productive pursuits.

Wow. Well, that's totally fucking insane. In lieu of starting your newsletter, Tea Party Batshit Crazy Weekly, perhaps you will start your own thread detailing your plan for your candyland on the non-Detroit portion of the website? What the fuck this has to do with the quality of Michigan roads is beyond any reasonable person's ken. Why don't you and your fact-free libertarian fantasy get a room, and the other teatards can join you there? We are talking about adult stuff, like how to fund roads in Michigan, not your pet peeve that some black woman takes one penny out of every 10,000 you make. Cry me a river.

Now, as we were saying about roads ...

[DetroitPlanner]

I think, if I'm not mistaken, our Governor has been trying for 3 years to add $1B per year to road funding for the next decade merely in order to get our shit together, but the bill is blocked in the state house or legislature.

Hence me telling Nerdboy [[not Snyder, but our Nerd) that if he does not like it that he should voice his opposition to the electorate. My job is not to wave a magic wand and tell people what should be done. My marching orders are made through a consensus of those who we elect to run things.

This is one of the few things I have actually agreed with him on, and it is not just for funding roads, it is for transit too. He wants to keep the funding percentage for transit constant but the pot will be much bigger.

Here is his infrastructure plan, the only thing he has been able to accomplish is the RTA because that did not 'cost' the Michigan taxpayers money. It punts the funding from the Michigan Legislature to locals. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sn...e_367113_7.pdf

[GP For Life]

Wow. Well, that's totally fucking insane. In lieu of starting your newsletter, Tea Party Batshit Crazy Weekly, perhaps you will start your own thread detailing your plan for your candyland on the non-Detroit portion of the website? What the fuck this has to do with the quality of Michigan roads is beyond any reasonable person's ken. Why don't you and your fact-free libertarian fantasy get a room, and the other teatards can join you there? We are talking about adult stuff, like how to fund roads in Michigan, not your pet peeve that some black woman takes one penny out of every 10,000 you make. Cry me a river.

Now, as we were saying about roads ...

Why do you assume that a welfare recipient is black? Most welfare recipients in Michigan are white. [[Though admittedly, blacks may be over represented.) Please take your closet racist ways out of here.

I don't care if someone has to use the welfare system. I care if someone has to depend on the system for their life. Obviously, excluding those who are disabled and the like.

I'd just like to see chain gangs working on the roads before I pay one-cent more in gas taxes. Is that so wrong?

[astongraham]

Greenfield as you mentioned is absolutely horrid, it's been that way for many years and it seems there are no attempts to even do so much as patch it. Kelly road between 81/2 and 10 mile is an embarrassment also, but it's only been that way through the winter.

If you build roads that last, there is no work for the unions, at least that is what my grandfather would always say

It's not a new problem but it's still shocking just unacceptable it is.

For as car dependent as this state is, how are the roads SOOOOO shitty?

I'd like to call out a couple in particular.

Woodward south of Grand Boulevard. It looks like a giant shotgun [[both shot and slug) went to work on it. Good job MDOT you should be proud.

Greenfield north of 8 Mile. Holy shit. Literally. Cedar Point has rides less bumpy than what I endured last night. I don't think you could go 10 feet head on or to the side without hitting a giant suspension ruining, tire busting hole. I'm pretty sure I saw a piece of wire frame sticking up out of one particular hole.

-The most nonexistant public transportation in the country.
-The highest auto insurance in the country.
-The [[has to be) worst maintained roads in the country.

We're past Michissippi, with recent politics we're Arizona with shittier winters.

[downtownguy]

How about we reallocate resources from luxuries [[like welfare programs) to pay for our roads?

Well, as Bham says, you're just stating facts.

[astongraham]

Construction has not started. The contracts haven't even been awarded. The only work that is taking place is relocation of underground utilities. Everyone wants to make it seem as if tracks are being layed, station foundations are being built and overhead power lines are being strung, none of that is taking place.

The rail on Woodward isn't going to be "forever." It's funded, under construction now and will be finished in 2016. And Woodward will be repaved as part of that. Now, I agree that we've waited too long to have it re-done, because the streetcar/light rail has been delayed several times. But construction has started, so it is only a matter of time at this point.

Also, Snyder's commercial wasn't paid for by public funds...

Generally, the reason we have crappy roads isn't politics - it's the weather. The amount of snow and ice we get, coupled with the freeze-thaw cycle, creates pockets of water underneath the pavement that undermine the road and create potholes and un-even-ness. And we can't permanently fix anything until the temperature is consistently above freezing.

[ABetterDetroit]

The amount of snow and ice we get, coupled with the freeze-thaw cycle, creates pockets of water underneath the pavement that undermine the road and create potholes and un-even-ness. And we can't permanently fix anything until the temperature is consistently above freezing.

This is the piss poor excuse that they have been feeding us for decades for not getting the job done. Do not believe it any more please. If you need proof all you need to do is get in your car and drive to Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Indiana or Illinois ANY of those states has way better roads than Michigan with similar weather patterns. I few of them have damn good roads in fact.

The fact is for a long time they have been not a priority of state gov. when businesses that operate out of the back of a truck [[movies), windmills, tax cuts, or whatever "pet idea" of the year is their priority.

Good roads are as simple as high quality engineering, quality inspection during the construction process, accountable contractors, quality materials and honesty in all of the previously stated. And of course adequate funding to get the job done. We have kicked the road can down the road for decades and now and the can fell in a deep hole so the bullshit excuses keep coming and now people believe them.

[astongraham]

I agree with Detroitnerd, just sit back and stay quiet for awhile.

How about this? Instead of complaining about which to fund, we fund both, with the same dollars.

This is actually serious. As a condition of receiving state assistance recipients have to serve two days a week at their local county road commission? The amount of time they serve will gradually increase to full-time [[over years) the longer they remain on public assistance.

Bam! Better roads and less proles on the public dole, yo! Obviously, not for those on disability, etc.

Edit: Another thing I had suggested before is sending prisoners out on the roads with wheelbarrows full of cold patch. Similar idea.

[Detroitnerd]

Why do you assume that a welfare recipient is black? bla bla bla fucking blobbety bla tea party bla bla bla taxes bla bla bla I'm totally nuts bla bla bla more wacky right wing bullshit unrelated to roads bla bla bla

Yeah, great. Good luck with that shit. No wonder our roads are falling apart. The people have all had their brains shaken out their ears by the potholes, so what's the point in filling them anymore ...

[ABetterDetroit]

We're talking about the fact that Michigan's roads are going to shit .

Nothing personal but that is like saying George Washington is going to die, in fact he is dead and has been dead for centuries.
Michigan roads are shit and have been for decades.

Raise the gas tax and get on with it for a F-ing change lansing.

Hire some engineers that understand this new fangled "freeze thaw" thing that everyone else figured out decades ago.

[mtburb]

Let me take a minute to share some examples of this I've experienced in the past five-to-seven years.

• Jefferson Avenue in Delray [[specifically the part by the waste treatment plant) was real bad.
• The worst [[in my opinion) was in Romulus, on Wahrman Street between Eureka and Pennsylvania, until it was repaved [[and realigned at Eureka). It was so bad that I refused to even go on it all together.
• Also pretty bad was Fort Street along the Wyandotte/Southgate border into Riverview up until the massive reconstruction a couple years back [[along the Wyandotte/Southgate border) up into last year [[in Riverview proper).
• I'm thankful the county finally paved Beech-Daly between Pennsylvania and Sibley, because it was a pretty appalling dirt road before then.

[Honky Tonk]

Nothing personal but that is like saying George Washington is going to die, in fact he is dead and has been dead for centuries.
Michigan roads are shit and have been for decades.

Raise the gas tax and get on with it for a F ing change lansing.

Hire some engineers that understand this new fangled "freeze thaw" thing that everyone else figured out decades ago.

That's not the issue. If they fix it permanently, [[or semi-permanently), it'll make for a loss of income. If they "fix it" so they have to fix it again in a few years, it's guaranteed income, permanently. Also people need to distinguish who fixes what. The state is responsible for State highways. The County, for County roads, [[MI Ave. to name one, Hmmmmm, maybe we shouldn't have pissed away $400 mil in that jail fiasco?), and the City, [[Jefferson in Delray comes to mind), is responsible for surface streets.

[ABetterDetroit]

I'd just like to see chain gangs working on the roads before I pay one-cent more in gas taxes. Is that so wrong?

More like a ridiculous answer really.

This is a large capital improvement infrastructure problem that requires qualified engineers and contractors with skilled labor. What you gonna do put felons on a half million dollar excavator? Drive dump trucks? This is not picking up litter. Spending money on creating your "chain gangs" does not address the problem.

[Detroitnerd]

Let me take a minute to share some examples of this I've experienced in the past five-to-seven years.

• Jefferson Avenue in Delray [[specifically the part by the waste treatment plant) was real bad.
• The worst [[in my opinion) was in Romulus, on Wahrman Street between Eureka and Pennsylvania, until it was repaved [[and realigned at Eureka). It was so bad that I refused to even go on it all together.
• Also pretty bad was Fort Street along the Wyandotte/Southgate border into Riverview up until the massive reconstruction a couple years back [[along the Wyandotte/Southgate border) up into last year [[in Riverview proper).

What do all these things have in common?

Truck traffic.

Which brings us to the MDOT, which assures us that it has a study showing that these heavy trucks do no more damage to the road than a Ford Fiesta unloaded.

[jt1]

What do all these things have in common?

Truck traffic.

Which brings us to the MDOT, which assures us that it has a study showing that these heavy trucks do no more damage to the road than a Ford Fiesta unloaded.

I think it is safe to say that anyone who believes MDOT very well may have been born still. Even as a governmental agency, their incompetence is astounding.

[poobert]

Well, I don't buy that. How about we reallocate resources from luxuries [[like welfare programs) to pay for our roads?

How is GP for Life real? Is he seriously trolling, trying to make GP stereotypes seem horrifyingly real?

[jt1]

Let's look at other luxuries that should be cut:

Mortgage interest deduction
Capital gains tax significantly below taxes on other earnings
Tax credits for energy efficient improvements/historic improvements on homes


I wonder if DB for life also sees these as luxuries?