Dan Dirks of DDOT ran the SMART buses on time

[That Great Guy]

So, should we help Mr. Dirks fill our city buses up?

How can this be done?

How can we get public support for this?

Can the freeway expansions be delayed, until community transit is included?

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO01/301100096

[Scottathew]

Can the freeway expansions be delayed, until community transit is included?

There's no reason not to invest in our freeways.

We need to do more mass transit, we need to regionalize, we need a better bus system, but we don't need to halt freeway investments.

[Honky Tonk]

There's no reason not to invest in our freeways.

We need to do more mass transit, we need to regionalize, we need a better bus system, but we don't need to halt freeway investments.

The City bus systems are caught in a Catch 22 situation. The majority of people aren't going to ride the bus system until it gets better, and it won't get better until ridership increases. There is also a large percentage of people that find it more convenient to use personal transportation, and won't use public transportation, [[be it bus or blight rail) no matter what you do.

[stasu1213]

I disagree Honkytonk. There are many people using public transportation. Especially in Detroit. The biggest myth is that there are not enough people using publiic transportation. Look at all of the people at the bus stops. One of the plots is to make it inconvenient to use public transportation in Detroit. It had been that way since the final days of the DSR

[DetroitPlanner]

How can you disagree that the majority of people do not use transit?
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acs-15.pdf

Please explain 'the plot to make it inconvenient to use public transport'. If by plot you mean there are a lot less revenues coming in to support everything that government has to do? I suppose there is a plot to have poor police and fire protection, and a plot to empty out neighborhoods due to high taxes and low services?

[downtownguy]

To be fair, stasu said many people use mass transit, not the majority of people. The report cited 5.0% use public transportation. One in 20. I think that's many people.

[That Great Guy]

Good comments. The funding and service SMART provides is all protected by the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

We should remember the 50th anniversary of this Federal Law next August by voting on the SMART Property Tax Renewal.

[Honky Tonk]

I disagree Honkytonk. There are many people using public transportation. Especially in Detroit. The biggest myth is that there are not enough people using publiic transportation. Look at all of the people at the bus stops. One of the plots is to make it inconvenient to use public transportation in Detroit. It had been that way since the final days of the DSR

I'm not a PT expert, but for a time period, my ride was in the shop. Luckily, I lived [[@ the time) within walking distance of a major DOT bus route, that dropped me off within walking distance of work. Sure it was packed @ rush hours, both a.m. & p.m., but the rest of the day you were lucky to get half a dozen people @ any given time. It doesn't seem financially feasible that you can run a business this way.

[Khorasaurus]

I'm not a PT expert, but for a time period, my ride was in the shop. Luckily, I lived [[@ the time) within walking distance of a major DOT bus route, that dropped me off within walking distance of work. Sure it was packed @ rush hours, both a.m. & p.m., but the rest of the day you were lucky to get half a dozen people @ any given time. It doesn't seem financially feasible that you can run a business this way.

Public transportation isn't a business. It's a public service.

[That Great Guy]

Public transportation isn't a business. It's a public service.

Yes it is a public service.

In my opinion, Oakland County should help pay for Detroit. Or, NO widening of I-75

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The majority of people aren't going to ride the bus system until it gets better, and it won't get better until ridership increases.

The majority of people in metro Detroit will never be regular users of mass transit, regardless of what we do. But usage can be increased, especially in Detroit and the denser suburbs. One of the points in the detnews article linked to above made by Mr. Dirks is that it is a goal of his to improve the coordination of different systems. In addition to more frequent and reliable service in clean, modern buses, coordination is paramount. I think all transit systems in the area [[actually, I favor the whole state) should be on a reloadable debit card system, which could be used on any system with free transfers. Saves time and money for everyone involved; also, no cash on a bus is no stolen cash on a bus. And coordinating stations to serve multiple lines and services would be a big benefit. I think the RTA should make coordination as much a priority as anything else [[although I think launching the BRT project and improving the bus fleet, bus stops and technology throughout the system are important, too).

[Honky Tonk]

Public transportation isn't a business. It's a public service.

Well then with that approach, I'd say it's running just like it's supposed to.

[leapfrog]

Well then with that approach, I'd say it's running just like it's supposed to.

Honky Tonk, I don't always agree with your posts, but this one made me laugh out loud! I have to clean up my spilled coffee, now.

[stasu1213]

I'm not a PT expert, but for a time period, my ride was in the shop. Luckily, I lived [[@ the time) within walking distance of a major DOT bus route, that dropped me off within walking distance of work. Sure it was packed @ rush hours, both a.m. & p.m., but the rest of the day you were lucky to get half a dozen people @ any given time. It doesn't seem financially feasible that you can run a business this way.

I don't know what line that you live off of. Gratiot, Grand River, Michigan, Hamilton, the mile rds routes, are busy all day and after 6pm. I catches the bus daily. Not just temporarily. I see it. Motorist don't have a clue

[stasu1213]

The majority of people in metro Detroit will never be regular users of mass transit, regardless of what we do. But usage can be increased, especially in Detroit and the denser suburbs. One of the points in the detnews article linked to above made by Mr. Dirks is that it is a goal of his to improve the coordination of different systems. In addition to more frequent and reliable service in clean, modern buses, coordination is paramount. I think all transit systems in the area [[actually, I favor the whole state) should be on a reloadable debit card system, which could be used on any system with free transfers. Saves time and money for everyone involved; also, no cash on a bus is no stolen cash on a bus. And coordinating stations to serve multiple lines and services would be a big benefit. I think the RTA should make coordination as much a priority as anything else [[although I think launching the BRT project and improving the bus fleet, bus stops and technology throughout the system are important, too).

I agree. I hate standing behind someone who didn't have their change in their hands prepared before the bus arrived and fiddeling in their pockets for the correct change while at the change box holding up the line behind her/him trying to get on the bus out of the freezing temps

[astongraham]

I'd rather not carry bed bugs home from the bus. I'd rather not sit next to a smelly drunk or listen to the high school students curse and disrespect everyone on the bus. I'd rather not stand outside in the cold and risk not making it to work or doctors appointment on time. I'd rather not get raped or robbed while waiting on the bus. I'd rather get in my car and have peace from all that. I caught the DDOT my entire adolescent and part of my adult life. After having a gun pointed at me at 1am, I'd rather not stand helplessly waiting for a bus, or even worse, a police department that won't respond.
I've caught the Chicago EL and bus system everyday for 8 years. I'm not saying that I could not have been robbed at some point, but it was a FAR better experience that what's offered here.
No one feels safe and secure riding DDOT. In Chicago, everyone from my regional VP to members of my staff all caught the same EL every morning together. It was supported and it was safe and very clean. It also didn't take roughly half to day to move from one point in the city to the next.
I'll settle with expanding freeways until there is an EPIC improvement in public transit and safety in Detroit. I know it will never happen, it's all makeup on a pig at this point.

[astongraham]

It's also very convenient to not ever have to deal with standing behind someone who has no change to board the bus and is hounding everyone to break their $5. Having a completely cashless system like other major cities really speeds things up. For some reason Detroit thought it was a wise decision to invest in the cheapest produced transit fare boxes that are on the market. These machines jam if you try to put more than one coin in at a time, they frequently refuse to accept dollar bills, incorrectly read fare cards and I've noticed that the boxes simply don't work. How much cash is Detroit losing from the dozen or more fare boxes that are broken when you board a coach? I'm sure they are made by the same company that make those toyish looking crappy parking meter kiosks downtown.

[Wesley Mouch]

Public transportation isn't a business. It's a public service.

Sure. But there's little difference between the two in terms of how to best operate.

[professorscott]

It's also very convenient to not ever have to deal with standing behind someone who has no change to board the bus and is hounding everyone to break their $5. Having a completely cashless system like other major cities really speeds things up. For some reason Detroit thought it was a wise decision to invest in the cheapest produced transit fare boxes that are on the market. These machines jam if you try to put more than one coin in at a time, they frequently refuse to accept dollar bills, incorrectly read fare cards and I've noticed that the boxes simply don't work. How much cash is Detroit losing from the dozen or more fare boxes that are broken when you board a coach? I'm sure they are made by the same company that make those toyish looking crappy parking meter kiosks downtown.

I don't know about the relative quality of the various fareboxes on the market when you purchase them, but I do know that a modern farebox is a tricky little electromechanical device with a lot of parts, which needs to be maintained as a matter of routine. And when City Council insists on micromanaging accounts payable, and decides that bus-part vendors are noncritical and won't get paid on a regular basis, it is mighty difficult to get the parts you need to maintain fareboxes. [[And the rest of the bus as well.)

[astongraham]

As an avid public transit user in the various cities I've lived [[Chicago, Columbus, Cleveland, Toronto and San Diego to name a few) and have visited during my travels, the fair boxes on DDOT are of cheap quality. It is apparent the moment you step into the bus. They are mostly made of plastic [[some metal), rather small and chinky looking. They did not work properly when they were first installed during the Coleman administration. They are not even in the same league as even the ones used by COTA in Columbus, OH. They lack any kind of anti-jamming technology and they usually won't take dollar bills unless they are brand new[[even those get shredded and jam the boxes) Much like the parking meter kiosks used downtown, they are inferior, cheap quality and don't work as intended. Maintenance is a big thing lacking in Detroit, but if it's inferior from the beginning and does nothing to speed up service to passengers, there's not much to be done other than investing in better technology [[and stop being cheap and cutting every corner possible to divert money to other non important things)

I don't know about the relative quality of the various fareboxes on the market when you purchase them, but I do know that a modern farebox is a tricky little electromechanical device with a lot of parts, which needs to be maintained as a matter of routine. And when City Council insists on micromanaging accounts payable, and decides that bus-part vendors are noncritical and won't get paid on a regular basis, it is mighty difficult to get the parts you need to maintain fareboxes. [[And the rest of the bus as well.)

[Hermod]

I'm not a PT expert, but for a time period, my ride was in the shop. Luckily, I lived [[@ the time) within walking distance of a major DOT bus route, that dropped me off within walking distance of work. Sure it was packed @ rush hours, both a.m. & p.m., but the rest of the day you were lucky to get half a dozen people @ any given time. It doesn't seem financially feasible that you can run a business this way.

Even when the transit systems were privately owned, the operators were always faced with the problem of being able to afford the capacity for the morning and evening rush while not getting much revenue providing service during the slack times of the day or night.

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Attachment 22652

[professorscott]

Even when the transit systems were privately owned, the operators were always faced with the problem of being able to afford the capacity for the morning and evening rush while not getting much revenue providing service during the slack times of the day or night.

Indeed. The streetcar companies came up with many novel ways to try to increase the off-peak business. Among other things, this is why amusement parks were originally created: by streetcar companies who would build them at the remote end of a line, to give people a reason to ride on the weekend.

The problem of being too busy a few hours a day and barely busy at all the rest of the time was always an issue for transit operators. Before automobiles became popular and governments started building roads, streetcar companies had a captive audience, so they could make money despite this problem, though in many cases just barely. Of course the streetcar companies put in all their own infrastructure at their own expense, so when the government put in competing infrastructure at government expense, it was the ruin of the private streetcar-line industry.

Once the government started subsidizing any kind of transportation, we became addicted to this and now the government subsidizes, in one way or another, nearly every kind of transportation, freight railways and toll expressways being the notable exceptions.

[Detroitnerd]

There's no reason not to invest in our freeways.

We need to do more mass transit, we need to regionalize, we need a better bus system, but we don't need to halt freeway investments.

Hahahahaha. Oh, man. That's motherfucking funny.

The bridges should be replaced if we're going to keep I-94 another 50 years, but the expansion plan should be shitcanned.

[Hermod]

Indeed. The streetcar companies came up with many novel ways to try to increase the off-peak business. Among other things, this is why amusement parks were originally created: by streetcar companies who would build them at the remote end of a line, to give people a reason to ride on the weekend.

Jefferson Beached jazzed up weekend traffic on the Jefferson line.
Eastwood Park jazzed up traffic on the Gratiot line.
Edgewater park jazzed up traffic on the Grand River line

[Hermod]

Hahahahaha. Oh, man. That's motherfucking funny.

The bridges should be replaced if we're going to keep I-94 another 50 years, but the expansion plan should be shitcanned.

The bridges are the big expense. Just eliminate them and people can't use cars to get around.