Lansing's plan for immigration and Detroit?

**Dan Wesson** · January-23-14, 09:43 AM

Hmmmmm....

Has the powers that be given up on a large portion of Detroit's residents?

Who's to say that the Michigan Brain Drain won't come in to play?

http://www.mlive.com/politics/index...._river_default

**Detroitnerd** · January-23-14, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Dan Wesson

Hmmmmm....

Has the powers that be given up on a large portion of Detroit's residents?

Who's to say that the Michigan Brain Drain won't come in to play?

http://www.mlive.com/politics/index...._river_default

I'm alarmed at the way workers with H-1B visas are so often hired by companies that specialize in offshoring. A sweet deal for the companies. They stay in our country a few years, learn the language, learn the business skills, and then take them back to their country where they operate the offshored business. What's to say this won't accelerate the way our jobs are being offshored?

I'm not a reactionary when it comes to immigration. I think whether they're documented, immigrants contributed to the country by starting businesses with small amounts of capital. But the way the PTB want to run immigration, with scams like H-1B, where they're paid less and often hurt our economic base, I'm opposed.

**Eber Brock Ward** · January-23-14, 10:01 AM

Eh, 3/4 of my grandparents were immigrants. This country was built on immigration, both voluntary and, unfortunately, voluntary immigration.

Open up the floodgates.

**bailey** · January-23-14, 10:06 AM

So how exactly would this be enforced? Does "live in detroit" mean Detroit MSA? Also, in an area with scarce jobs for educated professionals to begin with [[hence all the moving vans heading west on i94 to the greatest city to ever exist) , how is dumping more on the market supposed to help?

**Kevgoblue** · January-23-14, 10:07 AM

Latest numbers show Michigan still with a 8.4% unemployment rate. http://www.milmi.org/
And that's including the seasonal bump for part time Christmas help.
No issue per se with immigrants. But bringing in non-citizens to work should not be at the expense of our local residents.

**bailey** · January-23-14, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Kevgoblue

Latest numbers show Michigan still with a 8.4% unemployment rate. http://www.milmi.org/
And that's including the seasonal bump for part time Christmas help.
No issue per se with immigrants. But bringing in non-citizens to work should not be at the expense of our local residents.

8.4 doesnt tell the whole story... for a real picture of the shitty economy, look to the U-6. That is the total unemployed [[which includes those that have just stopped looking), plus all marginally attached workers, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers.

Michigan's U6 is around 15-16 percent. Detroit MSA's is up around 20-25% which is pretty much right at Great Depression levels.

So yea... much like illegal immigrant amnesty... dumping MORE cheap desperate labor into a pool filled to overflowing with desperate and cheap labor is just kind of stupid.

**Honky Tonk** · January-23-14, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Kevgoblue

Latest numbers show Michigan still with a 8.4% unemployment rate. http://www.milmi.org/
And that's including the seasonal bump for part time Christmas help.
No issue per se with immigrants. But bringing in non-citizens to work should not be at the expense of our local residents.

"The type of visas involved are not allocated by region or state, and go to legal immigrants with advanced degrees or who show exceptional ability in certain fields."

A lot of Detroiters currently don't possess those skills. Tricky-Dick is banking that the influx of talent will then draw businesses to Detroit, and these "new" Detroiters populating the area, therefore growth. Whatever deal is made, it has to be worded carefully to: a.) Stop out of State businesses from luring the "talented" imigrants away. b). Requireing the new "talented" immigrants to actually live in and maintain Detroit proper, and not head for the 'burbs as soon as they land. I'll give Snyder this, right or wrong, weak or strong, @ least he's trying something new. He's not sitting on his fat can waiting for bacon to materialize.

**Detroitnerd** · January-23-14, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

8.4 doesnt tell the whole story... for a real picture of the shitty economy, look to the U-6. That is the total unemployed, plus all marginally attached workers, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers.

Michigan's U6 is around 15-16 percent. Detroit MSA's is up around 20-25% which is pretty much right at Great Depression levels.

So yea... much like illegal immigrant amnesty... dumping MORE cheap desperate labor into a pool filled to overflowing with desperate and cheap labor is just kind of stupid.

While I do think not all immigration is equal [[some visas hem in immigrants almost to be indentured to corporations; most immigrants start businesses or otherwise contribute to our common welfare), I think you're right on this one, Bailey ...

**Hermod** · January-23-14, 10:27 AM

So "progressives" are real cool with undocumented Mexicans undercutting and taking jobs from unionized construction workers but have their panties in a wad over documented South Asians undercutting and taking jobs from computer programers?

**Detroitnerd** · January-23-14, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

So "progressives" are real cool with undocumented Mexicans undercutting and taking jobs from unionized construction workers but have their panties in a wad over documented South Asians undercutting and taking jobs from computer programers?

I don't know about progressives, but I personally find the evidence suggests that every additional person who comes into the country adds to the country's economy.

As for the individual labor issues, I think all sorts of workers have more in common than they do different, and it's usually bosses who try to use racist, sexist, regionalist or nativist sentiments to weaken the bargaining power of their workers, so I'm not crazy about pitting native-born Americans against any other group. A union that buys into that isn't a union as far as I'm concerned; it's a club.

Anyway, Hermod: Who does the undercutting? Is it the workers who come here looking for a better life? Or is it the bosses who are only too happy to have nonunion workers who can be abused willy-nilly because of their tenuous residency? Hmmm?

Finally, re: Mexicans: Maybe it wasn't such a hot idea to ram NAFTA through and soak the Mexicans in cheap, subsidized, American corn, which ruined a lot of the very same people who were practicing agriculture happily in southern Mexico. Their livelihoods destroyed, they had to find work elsewhere. And since capital can freely cross the border, people follow that capital?

Neoliberal and neoconservative politics are ruining North America, and I suppose it's those progressives who are the hypocrites? As some old dude once said in Aramaic, "Before you point out the dust in my eye, maybe you should take the two-by-four out of yours ..."

**bailey** · January-23-14, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

So "progressives" are real cool with undocumented Mexicans undercutting and taking jobs from unionized construction workers but have their panties in a wad over documented South Asians undercutting and taking jobs from computer programers?

I'd consider myself progressive-ish and I'm "cool" with neither. What I want to see is the illegals that are here put "on the books". Pretending that 10s of millions can be deported is just silly. They're here, they've already taken the jobs, the Chamber of Commerce and plenty or Rs and Ds have made damn sure that it's only marginally difficult to employ them ....so hows about we all recognize reality and start getting them paying into the system?

I'm also not cool with rolling out the red carpet for foreign nationals to take jobs from Americans during a time of a labor surplus. Look, immigration is fine, but flooding the market doesn't help anyone. At this point we should be restricting entry, not throwing the doors open.

**aj3647** · January-23-14, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

So yea... much like illegal immigrant amnesty... dumping MORE cheap desperate labor into a pool filled to overflowing with desperate and cheap labor is just kind of stupid.

Do you know what an H1-B visa actually is and who qualifies for one? Here's a hint, they aren't being given to unskilled, uneducated manual laborers as you seem to be implying.

These are for foreign-born and foreign-trained engineers, computer programmers, doctors, scientists, and other HIGHLY-skilled and HIGHLY-educated professionals. They're not exactly competing for the same pool of jobs with Joe Six-Pack, the unemployed assembly line worker from Downriver.

**Honky Tonk** · January-23-14, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Do you know what an H1-B visa actually is and who qualifies for one? Here's a hint, they aren't being given to unskilled, uneducated manual laborers as you seem to be implying.

These are for foreign-born and foreign-trained engineers, computer programmers, doctors, scientists, and other HIGHLY-skilled and HIGHLY-educated professionals. They're not exactly competing for the same pool of jobs with Joe Six-Pack, the unemployed assembly line worker from Downriver.

You shouldn't let facts ruin everything.

**Detroitnerd** · January-23-14, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Do you know what an H1-B visa actually is and who qualifies for one? Here's a hint, they aren't being given to unskilled, uneducated manual laborers as you seem to be implying.

These are for foreign-born and foreign-trained engineers, computer programmers, doctors, scientists, and other HIGHLY-skilled and HIGHLY-educated professionals. They're not exactly competing for the same pool of jobs with Joe Six-Pack, the unemployed assembly line worker from Downriver.

So they're in the same sort of job normally filled by college graduates who are fleeing the state? Sigh ...

**DetroitPlanner** · January-23-14, 11:13 AM

You're going to have a hard time forcing people to live anywhere. We are beyond the days of encampments for Japanese or Germans. A City cannot even tell the people they employ they have to live within its boundaries.

We will need a lot more to keep them here than just letting them in legally. Immigrants will not stay if they can get better paid jobs elsewhere, if they are having issues with the schools, or home security.

**bailey** · January-23-14, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Do you know what an H1-B visa actually is and who qualifies for one? Here's a hint, they aren't being given to unskilled, uneducated manual laborers as you seem to be implying.

These are for foreign-born and foreign-trained engineers, computer programmers, doctors, scientists, and other HIGHLY-skilled and HIGHLY-educated professionals. They're not exactly competing for the same pool of jobs with Joe Six-Pack, the unemployed assembly line worker from Downriver.

Of course that isn't what I said. But thanks. Why don't you peruse the "Michigan Brain Drain" thread...

Look, they are competing for jobs that are already scarce in this region. Hence story after story after story about how the highly educated are running from this state as fast as their taxpayer subsidized degree will take them. Further the allegation that these immigrants are desperately needed because there just aren't enough engineers or programmers or whatever in this country because everyone is getting a Masters Degree in Sandscrit instead of a STEM degree is just patently false.

The 2010 American Community Survey shows:

There are 101,000 U.S.-born individuals with engineering degrees who are unemployed.
There are an additional 244,000 U.S.-born individuals under age 65 who have a degree in engineering but who are not in the labor market. This means they are not working nor are they looking for work, and are therefore not counted as unemployed.
In addition to those unemployed and out of the labor force, there are an additional 1.47 million U.S.-born individuals who report they have an engineering degree and have a job, but do not work as engineers.
President Obama specifically used the words “highly skilled.” In 2010, there were 25,000 unemployed U.S.-born individuals with engineering degrees who have a Master’s or Ph.D. and another 68,000 with advanced degrees not in the labor force. There were also 489,000 U.S.-born individuals with graduate degrees who were working, but not as engineers.
Relatively low pay and perhaps a strong bias on the part of some employers to hire foreign workers seems to have pushed many American engineers out their profession.
There are many different types of engineering degrees. But unemployment, non-work, or working outside of your field is common for Americans with many different types of engineering degrees.
The key policy question for the United States is how many foreign engineers should be admitted in the future. Contrary to President Obama’s statement, the latest data from the Census Bureau indicate there is a very large supply of American-born engineers in the country. It would be better for the president to seek more diverse sources of information than simply relying on “industry” to determine what is going on in the U.S. labor market.

http://www.techjournal.org/2012/02/m...lls-shortages/

**Meddle** · January-23-14, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

8.4 doesnt tell the whole story... for a real picture of the shitty economy, look to the U-6. That is the total unemployed [[which includes those that have just stopped looking), plus all marginally attached workers, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers.

Michigan's U6 is around 15-16 percent. Detroit MSA's is up around 20-25% which is pretty much right at Great Depression levels.

So yea... much like illegal immigrant amnesty... dumping MORE cheap desperate labor into a pool filled to overflowing with desperate and cheap labor is just kind of stupid.

Does that include those that have never worked a legitimate job, but grew up into a world of drug dealing, gang-banging, theft, burglary, scrapping, etc.?

How many immigrants already in the Metro area are unemployed?

Why do more need to be imported?

**aj3647** · January-23-14, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

Of course that isn't what I said. But thanks. Why don't you peruse the "Michigan Brain Drain" thread...

You used the words "cheap and desperate" to describe these laborers. That may describe some illegal Mexican migrants doing manual labor work while trying to avoid deportation perhaps, but not an engineer or doctor from India. None of the people in these fields are either "cheap" labor or "desperate" as you seem to mistakenly believe. And nobody with an engineering master's degree is hard up for work. If they leave Michigan, it's because they are getting more money and a better life in some other state than what they can find here.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

So they're in the same sort of job normally filled by college graduates who are fleeing the state? Sigh ...

And these people would magically stay if we told the immigrants to fuck off? No they wouldn't. This brain drain has been going on for years, so future immigration is not retroactively responsible for it, nor would curtailing future immigration slow the brain drain.

Michigan's college grads aren't all necessarily fleeing because there aren't jobs here for them, they're fleeing the state because of a patchwork of varying reasons. Maybe some of it is job availability, but there's also quality of life and other issues involved. Honestly if it weren't for the anchor of family, we'd lose even more young college grads. Most of my cohort from UofM didn't even look for jobs in Michigan because they knew they didn't want to stay here. The ones that did were motivated in large part by wanting to stay close to family, not because Michigan is so much more awesome than California or NYC.

**Hypestyles** · January-23-14, 11:32 AM

So. Let’s say that this proposal passes. Statistically, what would be the probable breakdown of the countries/regions that potential immigrants would be coming from? What neighborhoods have the most available housing, and in what form? While I suppose nearly “any” new business is welcome, what would be the most “needed” localized business services in Detroit proper?
Urban Detroit has ongoing issues with the unskilled and semi-skilled not being able to be plugged into the mainstream labor pool. I would hope that there would be some type of initiative that could promote co-training/ intercultural exchanges with new immigrant arrivals and locals. [[side note: where are local day-laborers usually picked up at?)

**Honky Tonk** · January-23-14, 11:32 AM

I'm going to be a real smart-ass here, and post the quote from M-Live one more time because it looks like some people missed it.

The type of visas involved are not allocated by region or state, and go to legal immigrants with advanced degrees or who show exceptional ability in certain fields.

**bailey** · January-23-14, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

You used the words "cheap and desperate" to describe these laborers. That may describe some illegal Mexican migrants doing manual labor work while trying to avoid deportation perhaps, but not an engineer or doctor from India. None of the people in these fields are either "cheap" labor or "desperate" as you seem to mistakenly believe. And nobody with an engineering master's degree is hard up for work. If they leave Michigan, it's because they are getting more money and a better life in some other state than what they can find here.

sigh. Look," cheap and desperate" meaning someone with an advanced degree without a job here or not working in the field of their degree...of which there are many here and nationwide. The H1b visa system is rigged to get cheaper programmers, engineers and the like here. We DO NOT have any shortage of people to do the job, we have shortage of jobs that pay well and dumping a few hundred thousand Indians on the problem every year [[for three years at a time) is just stupid.... unless all you want is cheap, disposable labor. Cheaper and easier to just get a new batch of indians every three years than have one UM grad spending a career on the payroll expecting raises and 401k matches..etc.

A key argument for H-1B has always been that there’s a shortage of technical talent in U.S. IT. This has been taken as a given by both major political parties. But it’s wrong. Here are six rigorous studies [[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) that show there is no shortage of STEM workers in the U.S. nor the likelihood of such a shortage in years to come..

**mwilbert** · January-23-14, 11:38 AM

Most of the above comments are not really on topic.

The proposal is specifically with respect to EB-2 visas, which would have Detroit residency requirements. Personally, I like the idea--it couldn't hurt. But whether you like it or not, it has nothing to do with NAFTA or H1-B visas or illegal immigration.

The good thing about this proposal is that it advantages Detroit [[a bit) without giving it something that lots of other people want, so it isn't beyond belief that it could be done, unlike, for example, the tax haven nonsense. Another thing I would like is some kind of Detroit preference for the I-526 or similar visa for immigrant entrepreneurs.

**Detroitnerd** · January-23-14, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

Most of the above comments are not really on topic.

The proposal is specifically with respect to EB-2 visas, which would have Detroit residency requirements. Personally, I like the idea--it couldn't hurt. But whether you like it or not, it has nothing to do with NAFTA or H1-B visas or illegal immigration.

The good thing about this proposal is that it advantages Detroit [[a bit) without giving it something that lots of other people want, so it isn't beyond belief that it could be done, unlike, for example, the tax haven nonsense. Another thing I would like is some kind of Detroit preference for the I-526 or similar visa for immigrant entrepreneurs.

Not really true, mwilbert, because Snyder is pushing to expand the H1-B program, even though that's in Washington's hands. [[See an editorial from the Detroit News trying to sell it from earlier this week.) So that definitely tells you in which direction Snyder wants to go.

**bailey** · January-23-14, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

Most of the above comments are not really on topic.

The proposal is specifically with respect to EB-2 visas, which would have Detroit residency requirements. Personally, I like the idea--it couldn't hurt. But whether you like it or not, it has nothing to do with NAFTA or H1-B visas or illegal immigration.

the logic behind the proposal is the same. Snyder is saying we need 50,000 immigrants here who hold advanced degrees or have exceptional skills. Ok. Show me how the DETROIT labor market absorbs 50,000 advanced degree holders? It's the same canard used to support the h1b issue. THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF AMERICANS WITH THESE SKILLS there is no need to import them either "temporarily" [[h1b) or permenently [[EB-2). What we have is a shortage of companies willing to employ Americans[[read: pay them a wage commiserate with the level of education and experience).

**Kevgoblue** · January-23-14, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Michigan's college grads aren't all necessarily fleeing because there aren't jobs here for them, they're fleeing the state because of a patchwork of varying reasons. Maybe some of it is job availability, but there's also quality of life and other issues involved. Honestly if it weren't for the anchor of family, we'd lose even more young college grads. Most of my cohort from UofM didn't even look for jobs in Michigan because they knew they didn't want to stay here. The ones that did were motivated in large part by wanting to stay close to family, not because Michigan is so much more awesome than California or NYC.

Bullshit.
Remember that day in January of 1914? That's when good ol' Uncle Henry announced that the Ford Motor Co would be paying its employees the sum of $5 per day. And immediately thereafter, people were beating a path to his door. The locals did it. And they were soon followed by people from the south, migrating up north. If you choose to pay people a competitive wage...they will come.

Snyder is just once again trying to put lipstick on the pig that is his big business doners. Couple of years ago he cut the business tax by about $1B. Offset by increases in taxes to seniors and cuts to education. Cutting educational spending. Thats a great long term plan to lure business to Michigan. Guess you can offset the impact of that disinvestment by bringing in more H1-B visa holders.