Detroit Public Transportation: 2014 and beyond.

[That Great Guy]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ers-to-suburbs

In my opinion, I still think the freeway expansions are bad idea in their present form.

[downtownguy]

^^Where was that article buried? That seems like quite a significant push. Where's stasu? He might even like this.

[DetroitPlanner]

^^Where was that article buried? That seems like quite a significant push. Where's stasu? He might even like this.

JARC is not a new program. The program is more modest now than it was in past years.

"The largest source of federal transit dollars - the urbanized area formula grant program - will be set at $4.4 billion in FY13 and $4.5 billion in FY14, but will now have more competition for grants as projects that formerly would fit in the now-cancelled Job Access and Reverse Commute [[JARC) program will now have to compete in this area."
http://publictransport.about.com/od/Transit_Funding/a/Review-Of-The-New-Federal-Transportation-Bill-Map-21.htm

This was in the article too:
"Unfortunately, MAP-21 is only a two-year bill - through September 2014 - rather than a five-year bill as many had hoped. It's annual funding level of $52.6 billion is a five percent increase over the 2006-09 average SAFETEA-LU total; most of this increase is in the transit side of the bill - a 13.3% increase versus a 3.13% increase in the highway side. In a departure from past practice, MAP-21 contains no earmarks."

[That Great Guy]

By replacing fuel taxes with property to pay for the operating expenses of SMART, we have raised $400 Million to match $1.2 Billion in Federal grants to widen I-75 and I-94.

The cost of SMART was shifted away from the Michigan Department of Transportation- MDOT which collects and distributes money derived from the State fuel tax to the property owners who opted into the County Transit Authority. There are plans to tax shift more fuel tax money for county roads.

The fuel tax money is not enough. So, we agree by majority vote to tax shifting, tax increases and massive bus service reductions to get Federal grants to expand freeways.


Next August 2014, it will make no difference on how you vote, unless you do something about it, like defeat the freeway projects or increase local taxes.

The game is over.

The Car has won and the Bus has lost

Unless, we or someone does something about it, instead of posting the facts.

My efforts of filling up the SMART and DDOT buses on 4 routes were not enough to stop the service cuts and convince MDOT to maintain current funding or make concessions in regard to the freeways.

Top SMART officials support this tax shifting to build bigger freeways and have failed to control their costs to avoid bus service reductions and further cuts in Federal, State and Industry support for mass transit.



This August SMART tax renewal is also a shift, increase and nothing more then a feel good charity. If $60 makes you feel good, then maybe $250 will feel better?

So, y'all will pay for my SMART ride no matter what. How much do ya all wanna pay?

If you want mass transit then actions must be taken and not lots of talk and broken promises.

[DetroitPlanner]

There was never any money shifted away from SMART. Yes state revenues are down, but they are down for everyone. This is due to people driving less, better fuel economy, and not having an increase in the gas tax [[it has been 19 cents for 20 years).

You have no idea how transportation is funded in Michigan. Act 51 controls which agencies get what funding. If more is needed, then it is up to the agency to secure it.

The millage generaltes about $46 million a year to operate the service. http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/18...whats-at-stake

This is less than what it costs Detroit in General Funds to operate DDOT. What goes into general funds? Property taxes, income taxes..... Local communities have to have some skin in the game in order to ensure the service is run half well, otherwise the service goes to crap.

You may say well the skin is there now, but the service is still not up to par. Consider this: Metro Detroit is dead last in funding its transit through local support.

[Wesley Mouch]

...Consider this: Metro Detroit is dead last in funding its transit through local support.

This hits the heart of the question. Can you detail what you mean by 'dead last'. In total dollars? Dollars per resident? Dollars per sq. mile? Dollars per bus mile?

We know money is a problem. We also know that proper operation and management is a problem. What's the balance?

[That Great Guy]

There was never any money shifted away from SMART. Yes state revenues are down, but they are down for everyone. This is due to people driving less, better fuel economy, and not having an increase in the gas tax [[it has been 19 cents for 20 years).

You have no idea how transportation is funded in Michigan. Act 51 controls which agencies get what funding. If more is needed, then it is up to the agency to secure it.

The millage generaltes about $46 million a year to operate the service. http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/18...whats-at-stake

This is less than what it costs Detroit in General Funds to operate DDOT. What goes into general funds? Property taxes, income taxes..... Local communities have to have some skin in the game in order to ensure the service is run half well, otherwise the service goes to crap.

You may say well the skin is there now, but the service is still not up to par. Consider this: Metro Detroit is dead last in funding its transit through local support.

I appreciate your post very much because many people believe no money was shifted.

The SMART Middlebelt 285 bus line was entirely paid for by ACT 51 funds before 1995. It was very real and essential for the handicapped as mandated by Federal laws. It is physically gone now and not there in any way, shape or form. This was the only handicapped facility directly connecting Oakland County to Metro Airport. Many other bus lines were also shut down or scaled back.

The exact same physical money once used for the 285 is still very real and not gone in any way shape or form. It is the $400 Million to expand freeways put aside by the Michigan Department of Transportation - MDOT to get $1.2 Billion in grants. This was cut from the SMART budget and other transit agencies including DDOT.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a Federal Law which over rules State and Local funding mechanisms. It is outright illegal and against the law for MDOT to slash funds for SMART, unless alternative permanent funding is secured first.

Thus, a vote of NO means that no handicapped facilities or those for the able bodied if essential will be shut down. This is being publicly challenged by me and the evidence with the Livonia Opt out is proof because SMART was still required to provide and so was Livonia Transit.

Nevertheless, bus service was reduced but not because of the Opt Out or the loss of property taxes. SMART was forced to cut the large buses because MDOT cuts and large increases in operating costs far beyond what a small property tax can possibly pay for, sans increasing fare box money.

So, YES money from handicapped facilities was indeed shifted to expand freeways. Federal funding for them should be fully denied and the only way that I know of to do this is to defeat the August 2014 tax renewal.

Does anyone know of any other ways to stop the freeway expansions? SMART can remove more cars from these freeways then what the expansions can do to get rid of traffic congestion. This was proved to SMART but they deny this can be done and will not use State money to do this. That is why SMART has lost over $14 per year in transit grant specifically for southeast Michigan. Source- Citizens Research Council of Michigan.


The public was and still is told SMART will shut down without the millage passing. So, lets shut SMART down next August. And then all go to Lansing and Washington DC and protest the large freeways. This will help change our history from being a car only city to a city with decent public bus service.

So, I'm taking actions and doing this.

What are your actions? If, any?

[DetroitPlanner]

All agencies have less money to operate transportation due to the gas tax being a poor revenue generator. Unless we switch to another formula [[say 1.5 cents per mile driven) we will all be living with worse transit, more battered roads, fewer nonmotorized options. Chopping support is not the answer. AAATA's millage is almost 4 times larger than SMART's. Blue Water's is more than double.

MDOT does not slash any transit funding. Funding mechanisms are state law courtesy of your elected officials. As I have said earlier, all transit agencies are losing money based upon the gas tax being such a poor revenue generator. When you tax per gallon, and trends show people drive less in more fuel efficient cars; it has a negative impact on revenues. Combine this with inflation and every road commission, transit agency, and city are looking for other revenues. MDOT can't look for other revenues. It is a department of the State and is beholden to its master.

Selling transit is a hard sell for any gas tax increase. People do not see the relationship between the gas tax and transit. A lot of this feeling has to do with people selecting the billion dollar solution when a $100 million solution could do the trick. Increasing the gas tax would just be a band-aid and will not solve the problem of decreasing revenues.

http://transweb.sjsu.edu/PDFs/resear...s-roads-bf.pdf

If you think that changing Michigan Law so that MDOT gets less money at a time where they have a hard time matching federal funds and cutting grass/melting ice. You are kidding yourself. You act like there is no need for I-94 or I-75 to be improved. It is almost like you have never actually looked at these facilities or tried to see what the benefits of a High Occupancy Vehicle lane will have on moving people and goods more efficiently. You would be surprised at how much current delay on these roads costs our society and puts us at even more of a disadvantage when folks are looking to site manufacturing facilities.

[That Great Guy]

Thank you for this post.

[casscorridor]

If you think that changing Michigan Law so that MDOT gets less money at a time where they have a hard time matching federal funds and cutting grass/melting ice. You are kidding yourself. You act like there is no need for I-94 or I-75 to be improved. It is almost like you have never actually looked at these facilities or tried to see what the benefits of a High Occupancy Vehicle lane will have on moving people and goods more efficiently. You would be surprised at how much current delay on these roads costs our society and puts us at even more of a disadvantage when folks are looking to site manufacturing facilities.

No one is saying not de-fund roads. But the 94 expansion is unnecessary and excessive. Not to mention destructive to the economic development of the area it runs through and the safety and accessibility to pedestrians trying to cross it with half as many bridges. All the while, it only saves a few minutes, if anything, in travel time on the few hours a day it gets a little backed up. If you want to see real traffic go to Chicago, Toronto or LA. Freeway access in Detroit is far better, yet it gives little advantage to the inner city compared with other more congested, yet thriving, cities.

[That Great Guy]

No one is saying not de-fund roads. But the 94 expansion is unnecessary and excessive. Not to mention destructive to the economic development of the area it runs through and the safety and accessibility to pedestrians trying to cross it with half as many bridges. All the while, it only saves a few minutes, if anything, in travel time on the few hours a day it gets a little backed up. If you want to see real traffic go to Chicago, Toronto or LA. Freeway access in Detroit is far better, yet it gives little advantage to the inner city compared with other more congested, yet thriving, cities.

I agree with you

It used to be that I used SMART to go to downtown Detroit. Today, I clog up the I-94 like many thousands of other drivers who once used SMART. This is due to the massive SMART and DDOT public bus service reductions forcing us out of our bus seats and onto the freeways.

That is why the SMART Property Tax Renewal of August 2014 should be defeated.

Don't just say NO to siphoning off $400 Million from the State fuel tax to match $1.2 Billion in Federal grants which could be used instead to pay for SMART, by continuing your postings.

Also say HELL NO, by taking other measures, such as ---

Write to Mr. Hertel of SMART and tell him to remove cars from this freeway and change them to include mass transit. Or, you will not support his tax renewal. Tell him you know that a NO vote will not shut down community transit for the handicapped or essential bus service for people with jobs using SMART. This is the T.R.U.th that is well known by the Transportation Riders United TRU which supports the SMART property tax.

It is not SMART to raise $46 Million per year in local property taxes and then siphon off $1.6 Billion to expand Detroit area freeways but STUPID and UN Safe. Large trucks and fast speeds and no mass transit puts safety last and quality of life next to last.

Source

Google

The abolition of state revenue sharing for mass transit

[Gistok]

No one is saying not de-fund roads. But the 94 expansion is unnecessary and excessive. Not to mention destructive to the economic development of the area it runs through and the safety and accessibility to pedestrians trying to cross it with half as many bridges. All the while, it only saves a few minutes, if anything, in travel time on the few hours a day it gets a little backed up. If you want to see real traffic go to Chicago, Toronto or LA. Freeway access in Detroit is far better, yet it gives little advantage to the inner city compared with other more congested, yet thriving, cities.

Please give us an example of the "economic development" that will be harmed? Just one example....

[That Great Guy]

Please give us an example of the "economic development" that will be harmed? Just one example....

Since I agree, I'll give one.

Detroit going bankrupt due to people with money moving to Northern Oakland County.

Source SEMCOG

[DetroitPlanner]

Since I agree, I'll give one.

Detroit going bankrupt due to people with money moving to Northern Oakland County.

Source SEMCOG

Looks like Detroit needs more transportation, not less. Folks are moving back, getting jobs. This will mean an increase in commercial trips delivering goods and distributing Detroit made products which will clog I-94 even more.

http://www.freep.com/article/2014012...dtown-Corktown

Considering your arguement is based upon getting more transit money from a shrinking revenue [[gas tax). I is unsustainable. Ether fix the current funding [[and yes that includes a millage for transit) or accept that you will have the transit you pay for.

[That Great Guy]

Looks like Detroit needs more transportation, not less. Folks are moving back, getting jobs. This will mean an increase in commercial trips delivering goods and distributing Detroit made products which will clog I-94 even more.

http://www.freep.com/article/2014012...dtown-Corktown

Considering your arguement is based upon getting more transit money from a shrinking revenue [[gas tax). I is unsustainable. Ether fix the current funding [[and yes that includes a millage for transit) or accept that you will have the transit you pay for.

It appears some people on this forum are too young to remember the Soviet Union and Communism or have not studied history.

YES, we will indeed have mass transit with the passage of the SMART tax next August

[casscorridor]

Please give us an example of the "economic development" that will be harmed? Just one example....

As we are speaking about the future, there are no specific examples. However, the freeway expansion will make the surrounding areas more undesirable by impeding the movement of pedestrians and cyclists, in addition to personal and commercial autos which will have a harder time getting around the neighborhoods. This is because there will be less bridges crossing the interstate, making it harder and more confusing to cross. It's not hard to understand that this won't be good for potential development in the areas adjacent to the freeway. At least, areas trying to become or maintain a pedestrian friendly environment... This project is utterly hostile to the pedestrian.

While most cities are learning from past mistakes, Detroit is repeating them.

[ghettopalmetto]

As we are speaking about the future, there are no specific examples. However, the freeway expansion will make the surrounding areas more undesirable by impeding the movement of pedestrians and cyclists, in addition to personal and commercial autos which will have a harder time getting around the neighborhoods. This is because there will be less bridges crossing the interstate, making it harder and more confusing to cross. It's not hard to understand that this won't be good for potential development in the areas adjacent to the freeway. At least, areas trying to become or maintain a pedestrian friendly environment... This project is utterly hostile to the pedestrian.

While most cities are learning from past mistakes, Detroit is repeating them.

But think of all the Waffle Houses and gas stations you can build once you complete scorched-earth bulldozing!

[Detroitnerd]

Please give us an example of the "economic development" that will be harmed? Just one example....

The way gentrification usually works is that one neighborhood will get hot. Then, as housing values rise and people crowd in to live there and properties are rehabbed and businesses open, there are people who want access to that neighborhood, but can no longer afford to live in that neighborhood. So they move in nearby, which sets off a chain reaction of more businesses opening there, rents rising, land values rising, etc. This is because people can walk from one neighborhood, which ain't so great but is on the upswing, to the next one, which is already "in the bubble" so to speak.

So the one hope you have in freeway-surrounded Midtown are those pedestrian and vehicular bridges. God bless 'em, people will walk or bike across an ugly-ass freeway to get decent coffee. And that drives the appeal of the nearby neighborhoods. So when you remove those bridges, you limit the ability of the resurgence in Midtown to spread.

And it is beginning to spread. Institutions south of the freeway are buying north of the freeway, as in CCS' Taubman Center, WSU's Tech Town, etc. And that's encouraging, but, historically not the kind of thing that invigorates a neighborhood. What you really need are for individual people to occupy the little shops, the apartment buildings, the older architecture that people can move into for a low cost of entry. That's what drives the rehabilitation of a neighborhood. And what kick-starts it is the fact that another, healthy neighborhood is within walking distance.

So when you knock down bridges between Midtown, now on the upswing, you're really hurting the potential rebound of places like Woodbridge and New Center.

[Hermod]

So if we have a pedestrian bridge [[which are relatively cheap) every couple of blocks over the freeway, we can widen it without the pearl clutchers getting their panties in a wad?

[Detroitnerd]

So if we have a pedestrian bridge [[which are relatively cheap) every couple of blocks over the freeway, we can widen it without the pearl clutchers getting their panties in a wad?

No.

The reason the bridges don't figure into the plan is because the cut would be widened so drastically that pedestrian bridges would be very expensive to build. [[And also because MDOT's planners never thought they were very important anyway.)

Anyway, I know it's not a serious question. Just Old Man Hermod trying to start trouble at the pickle barrel.

[Hermod]

No.

The reason the bridges don't figure into the plan is because the cut would be widened so drastically that pedestrian bridges would be very expensive to build. [[And also because MDOT's planners never thought they were very important anyway.)

Anyway, I know it's not a serious question. Just Old Man Hermod trying to start trouble at the pickle barrel.

We are going to four lanes which is 48 feet plus a 4 foot inside shoulder and an 8 foot outside shoulder which is a sixty foot maximum clear span from one pier to another with two people abreast at four foot intervals or thirty people at, say, 180 pounds, which is 5400 pounds of live weight. Not much of a beam required for a sixty foot span at that weight. It is pretty cheap when considering the total cost of the widening.

[Detroitnerd]

We are going to four lanes which is 48 feet plus a 4 foot inside shoulder and an 8 foot outside shoulder which is a sixty foot maximum clear span from one pier to another with two people abreast at four foot intervals or thirty people at, say, 180 pounds, which is 5400 pounds of live weight. Not much of a beam required for a sixty foot span at that weight. It is pretty cheap when considering the total cost of the widening.

Well, I guess that goes to show just how important pedestrian crossings are to MDOT.

In fairness, not all of them are pedestrian-only. The Third Street bridge, which is vehicular, is slated to go away. I don't have it in front of me, but I think other vehicular bridges slated for removal include Cass, Second and Ferry. Not sure how the engineering numbers translate into budgetary numbers, but I'm guessing the prevailing attitude at MDOT is, "Fuck 'em."

Really, this plan wasn't created recently. It's an old plan from the 1990s they just dusted off and decided to implement, even though stuff has been built in the path of it since it was done. Well, now I'm just ranting.

[DetroitPlanner]

Well, I guess that goes to show just how important pedestrian crossings are to MDOT.

In fairness, not all of them are pedestrian-only. The Third Street bridge, which is vehicular, is slated to go away. I don't have it in front of me, but I think other vehicular bridges slated for removal include Cass, Second and Ferry. Not sure how the engineering numbers translate into budgetary numbers, but I'm guessing the prevailing attitude at MDOT is, "Fuck 'em."

Really, this plan wasn't created recently. It's an old plan from the 1990s they just dusted off and decided to implement, even though stuff has been built in the path of it since it was done. Well, now I'm just ranting.

See figures 13.2 - 13.5 that compare before and after.
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,...2105--,00.html

While some bridges are being removed keep in mind that others are being added along service drives. For peds living in the McCoy apartments that may be taking classes at the Law School the new overlay will be a more direct route than taking the ped bridges across I-94, through Matthai, over the Lodge across Third then North.

Will things be different? Yes. I do however feel that those against the project are overstating the negative impacts and ignoring the positive ones.
In addition the City has always been a partner in this. I have no idea why you think MDOT has done this in a vacuum and is jamming it down everyone throghts. The City sees this as a way to get more jobs on the empty east side.

[professorscott]

The City sees this as a way to get more jobs on the empty east side.

Yes, because as everyone knows, jobs left the City because there aren't enough lanes on the expressways.

[Detroitnerd]

See figures 13.2 - 13.5 that compare before and after.
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,...2105--,00.html

Yup, I've seen that, DP. It pretty much shows the land as it looked in 1995 or so, before the gleaming school was built, which will have to now be partly demolished. Before the other school was put there, which will now have speeding service drive traffic zooming past where kids will walk. It shows a plan drawn up in 1995 and with materials made in 1995, and they're STILL USING THOSE MATERIALS TO SELL THE PLAN? I mean, shit... that should be a fucking embarrassment to MDOT, but they don't give a shit enough to even update the plan to show the buildings they're going to demolish? Ugh...

While some bridges are being removed keep in mind that others are being added along service drives. For peds living in the McCoy apartments that may be taking classes at the Law School the new overlay will be a more direct route than taking the ped bridges across I-94, through Matthai, over the Lodge across Third then North.

That is cold comfort to the people living and owning homes on Fourth Street who've relied on the Third Street bridge to get them to Wayne State and the rest of the neighborhood. You know darn well that if you cut off a community in, say, Berkley, from the heart of the downtown district, they'd raise holy hell, and MDOT shouldn't be surprised this is what's happening right now.

Will things be different? Yes. I do however feel that those against the project are overstating the negative impacts and ignoring the positive ones.

Sure you do, because you don't know them and this project doesn't affect your quality of life at all. Yet, in a sense, I do agree that this project won't affect them that much because ... it's just not going to happen. Sorry. The genie is out of the bottle in Midtown, and MDOT is not going to be able to accomplish this in the face of a mid-city area that has money and political power. And with Duggan coming out against this abortion, I think you can safely kiss it bye-bye. The bridge rehabs will happen, yes, but the widening, I predict, will not.

In addition the City has always been a partner in this. I have no idea why you think MDOT has done this in a vacuum and is jamming it down everyone throghts. The City sees this as a way to get more jobs on the empty east side.

Now we're listening to the solons in Detroit city government, are we? Jesus, DP, I could provide a laundry list of all the obscenely ridiculous and wasteful bullshit the city of Detroit has been "on board with," including but not limited to the incinerator, taking out bonds to demolish Poletown, doing risky credit swaps, putting the retirement fund into shaky-ass bullshit, handing out tax abatements like candy while the budget goes into the red, and the fact that this unit of government is "on board with" this is supposed to SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT? Come on. If that's the best you can do ...