Detroit Public Transportation: 2014 and beyond.

[Detroitnerd]

You have ton of choice. 1) don't live so far from your job in the suburbs. 2) move to a city with transit and ditch the car 3) move to a place where it never snows. 4) work from home/take a vacation day during a once a generation weather event

1) Lots of people are choosing to live nearer work and in actual neighborhoods where they can shop on foot without driving anywhere. Of course, absent from this is any actual public policy that would aid it, because our local public policy is stuck on default from 1980: "Just drive already."
2) Lots of people are choosing to leave metro Detroit, especially young people, since they'd rather just live in a place that offers transit than struggle against carheads for 20 years. But I can't believe this is the sort of public policy [[or goal) that you want to pursue. But metro Detroit couldn't chase away young people any faster if it wanted to, so it may as well be our goal and policy.
3) The only places where it never snows would seem to be outside the continental United States, so I'm guessing you're not serious about this point at all.
4) Not all of us have the option of working from home.

I mean, you act as if the lack of a rail option is some new thing here. Its been half a century. M-1 going in isn't going to solve your problem either so long as you don't live and work on the only 2.5 miles of rail track that is going to be laid here for the foreseeable future.

Ah, but, you see? This wasn't a serious discussion anyway. As evidenced by this intermezzo, where Bailey flails about, changing the subject [[that the dearth of options isn't new wasn't the point at all; the point was that the dearth of options sucks royally and must be addressed by public policy). Then Bailey sets up straw man No. 1 [[presuming that we believe M-1 is going to solve our problems, which we don't, frankly, believe), and then look at the vigor with which he handily rips apart this straw man: Ooooh. Devastating attack on that scarecrow you just built, Bailey. Devastating.

And you seem to think that a street running, in traffic "rail" line is going to be immune from the effects of this extreme storm.

Reprising a lame argument from earlier in the thread, Bailey makes one last-ditch attempt to throw a snowball at the post, because, since light rail vehicles and heavy rail transit can be affected by weather, there's simply no reason they're any different from taking a 7 MPH death ride on black ice at 6 p.m. and taking more than an hour to get home.

Never mind that a car-only system, which is essentially what we have here in metro Detroit, is more dangerous in bad weather, and that it is completely ill-suited 365 days out of the year for the blind, infirm, elderly, minors and anybody else who cannot afford it. No, we are going to ignore that double standard and instead talk about the rare instances where weather affects light rail that runs in traffic, a small subset of rail-based transit.

Classic Bailey. Just throwing whatever counterargument he can create or come up with to take on his own, made-up versions of what he opposes. Yeah, wow. I guess you really showed ME, Bailey.

[compn]

its unbelievable that people are out there waiting for a bus for 2 hours in this weather.

i was outside for 20 mins shovelling snow and my face just about froze off. cant imagine 2 hours.

[bailey]

1) Lots of people are choosing to live nearer work and in actual neighborhoods where they can shop on foot without driving anywhere. Of course, absent from this is any actual public policy that would aid it, because our local public policy is stuck on default from 1980: "Just drive already."
2) Lots of people are choosing to leave metro Detroit, especially young people, since they'd rather just live in a place that offers transit than struggle against carheads for 20 years. But I can't believe this is the sort of public policy [[or goal) that you want to pursue. But metro Detroit couldn't chase away young people any faster if it wanted to, so it may as well be our goal and policy.
3) The only places where it never snows would seem to be outside the continental United States, so I'm guessing you're not serious about this point at all.
4) Not all of us have the option of working from home.


Ah, but, you see? This wasn't a serious discussion anyway. As evidenced by this intermezzo, where Bailey flails about, changing the subject [[that the dearth of options isn't new wasn't the point at all; the point was that the dearth of options sucks royally and must be addressed by public policy). Then Bailey sets up straw man No. 1 [[presuming that we believe M-1 is going to solve our problems, which we don't, frankly, believe), and then look at the vigor with which he handily rips apart this straw man: Ooooh. Devastating attack on that scarecrow you just built, Bailey. Devastating.






Reprising a lame argument from earlier in the thread, Bailey makes one last-ditch attempt to throw a snowball at the post, because, since light rail vehicles and heavy rail transit can be affected by weather, there's simply no reason they're any different from taking a 7 MPH death ride on black ice at 6 p.m. and taking more than an hour to get home.


Never mind that a car-only system, which is essentially what we have here in metro Detroit, is more dangerous in bad weather, and that it is completely ill-suited 365 days out of the year for the blind, infirm, elderly, minors and anybody else who cannot afford it. No, we are going to ignore that double standard and instead talk about the rare instances where weather affects light rail that runs in traffic, a small subset of rail-based transit.


Classic Bailey. Just throwing whatever counterargument he can create or come up with to take on his own, made-up versions of what he opposes. Yeah, wow. I guess you really showed ME, Bailey.

Feel better now? get it all out?


Look you're the one whinging about having to drive on a crappy day and how you are pissed there is not a rail option. Gistok pointed out that on the VERY SAME DAY you were bitching about being scared to drive, rail lines [[not subways) were also struggling to operate.


That isn't an argument against rail or the Detroit doesn't need it, it's pointing out the bleedingly obvious fact that it was really big deal that screwed up more than just road traffic.

Knowing your penchant to bloviate, I'm sure HAD there been the LRT you think should be here [[which I also happen to think should be here) you'd be writing a screed about how you and the blind, elderly and infirm, were made to stand in the cold for hours [[or were stuck on a stuck rail line for hours) because Detroit doesn't have subways and can't do anything right.

And yes, people are choosing to live where they can walk to things and rarely use a car. My question to you is if it is such an important thing for you, and I'm asking seriously, why the fuck don't you go where that is possible? Why do you subject yourself to this backward region and why do you subject the rest of us to your unending rants about it?

I've lived all over the US and in a lot of the EU and I travel often for work. Living here is the only time I've owned/depend on a car...and I knew that would be the case when I moved back here. I don't spend all day complaining there is no mass transit. It hasn't existed here in half a century and I'm not expecting it to exist anytime in the next half century. Why? Because, as you state..over and over and over and over... the region is fucked up and stupid about transit. I'll vote for the guy that wants to make it happen and I'll vote for a tax if needed... but jesus man, get a new rant.


I mean you keep bitching about the "dearth of options" as if there is going to be some shift in policy because of one massive snow storm. If we get anything here, we're getting buses, a tiny bit of track, and some other buses dressed up to look like trains..concern for the blind,elderly and infirm and your fear of driving in the snow notwithstanding.

[Detroitnerd]

Feel better now? get it all out?

Oh, that's really cute. If this is about anybody's feelings, it's yours, because I'm discussing ideas, whereas you're the one lashing out with illogical statements. Look at how desperately you have to try to inject emotion into my very fact-based complaints.

Look you're the one whinging about having to drive on a crappy day and how you are pissed there is not a rail option. Gistok pointed out that on the VERY SAME DAY you were bitching about being scared to drive, rail lines [[not subways) were also struggling to operate.

Ah, yes. That's true. But as somebody who has had the choice, I can tell you a thing or two. As guests of a family in Ossining, N.Y., I'd join them on their trips into New York. If the weather was good, they'd drive and park in Manhattan. If the weather wasn't good, they'd go down to the station and take the train in. Quite nice having the choice. Of course, you'd rather obscure the central point with side arguments about how really, really, really bad weather affects all modes. Well, well. Pin the Nobel Prize on you. Amazing discovery, Bailey. Why not burn up a few more paragraphs? Only three or four? And I'M the one with the "penchant to bloviate." Har-de-har-har.

And yes, people are choosing to live where they can walk to things and rarely use a car. My question to you is if it is such an important thing for you, and I'm asking seriously, why the fuck don't you go where that is possible? Why do you subject yourself to this backward region and why do you subject the rest of us to your unending rants about it?

Hahaha. It's a free country, Bailey. If you don't like it, why don't you go somewhere else for your online activity? Needless to say, as a native Detroiter, I want to see my hometown catch up with the rest of the world. Too bad you seem to want it to become a Michissippi, where intelligent young people who want an urbane existence leave you to your fading, all-car, all-the-time metroplex.

I've lived all over the US and in a lot of the EU and I travel often for work. Living here is the only time I've owned/depend on a car...and I knew that would be the case when I moved back here. I don't spend all day complaining there is no mass transit. It hasn't existed here in half a century and I'm not expecting it to exist anytime in the next half century. Why? Because, as you state..over and over and over and over... the region is fucked up and stupid about transit. Bla-bla-bla. I've totally given up on this region and yet I demand everybody who disagrees with the status quo should shut up because bla-bla-bla-fucking-blobbety-bla-bla

Right. This isn't about transit. This is about your own personal irritation with me. Thanks, Bailey. Thanks for taking a perfectly good discussion and turning it into an occasion to just let old Detroitnerd have it. Because you know what's much more important than joining a discussion and taking a stand on an issue? Leaping into a thread to harp on a perceived enemy, the issues be damned.

Have a wonderful drive home, Bailey.

[That Great Guy]

Have a wonderful drive home, Bailey.

The Car has Won and the
Bus has Lost in Detroit

[DetroitPlanner]

No, it's not. You making this spurious comparison is like the Mackinaw Center saying ... anything.

My point is most news is biased. Granted Mackinac Center is an extreme example.

[That Great Guy]

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Remember to vote on the SMART Property Tax Renewal next August 2014

[Detroitnerd]

My point is most news is biased. Granted Mackinac Center is an extreme example.

Well, that's if you think the Mackinac Center produces "news." I like to imagine, at least, that most people understand what the center is and does, and how it's different from a place with a public purpose.

But, maybe I hope too much. I guess I often do.

[That Great Guy]

There is very strong support to change the Michigan State Constitution to allow Counties to charge a Sales tax to pay for the operating costs of Transit Authorities.

This means that instead of revenue sharing of the State fuel tax and property taxes to pay for SMART and DDOT, a NEW tax will pay for these and also the County Road Commission.

This will increase MDOT funds to repair roads and to raise money to pay for matching Federal grants for all transportation related projects. Thus, has the approval of both freeway and transit advocates.

So, what are your thoughts on this?

[DetroitPlanner]

So, what are your thoughts on this?

This has been on the table for years and is going nowhere.

[brizee]

The RTA's choice of CEO has resigned.

As much as I found his choice distasteful, this is not good news.

This thing is turning into a clusterfuck even quicker than usual for this place.

If they have to do it again, get a hungry young candidate, FROM ANOTHER REGION WITH ACTUAL PUBLIC TRANSIT.

Noone, not anyone that has had anything to do with DDOT, SMART, SEMCOG or MDOT should be allowed to put their incompetent little mitts ANYWHERE NEAR this gig.

Get an asskicker with a chip on their shoulder from NYC or Boston or Chicago. Someone who'll recognize Detroit [[ahem southeast michigan's) horseshit for exactly what it is.

[Detroitnerd]

Bring in David L. Gunn ...

[Hypestyles]

I predict another embedded local "insider" will get the nod, and somehow I doubt that his/her vision will be any more progressive than the predecessor.

[ghettopalmetto]

Bring in David L. Gunn ...

Except Gunn is a career railroad man. He's not going to piss around with Sexybuses.

[casscorridor]

John Hertel is an idiot. He should be replaced by someone from out of state. Perhaps from the Northeast or Northwest where more people care about public transit.

[dtowncitylover]

John Hertel is an idiot. He should be replaced by someone from out of state. Perhaps from the Northeast or Northwest where more people care about public transit.

But he REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wants to stay. Please, can he stay?

But this is Michigan, where we think our ideas are the best ideas and work. And don't care for any other evidence or advice.

[brizee]

The RTA board is leaning towards delaying putting a funding/Woodward bus vote to the public.

Since the vote has to be gubernatorial or presidential years this would put it November 2016 at the earliest.

-The delay in th vote is because the CEO left.

-The CEO left because there was no money for a staff.

-There was no money for staff because there isn't a dedicated funding source.

-The board, while looking for a replacement CEO, will of course opt to delay a vote that would give them...a dedicated funding source.

Stop it.

Just stop it.

Quit aiming for the cellar.

Quit fucking up.

Quit making dumb decisions.

Do they not realize how important public transit is? Do they realize transportation in this town is ABYSMAL? It's like trash pickup, or a fire department. It's not a damn option.

Is it some type of munchausen condition?

Do TPTB actually get enjoyment from bitching and crying and complaining about lack of money, and that's why they keep shooting themselves in the foot? By not presenting the public a solid plan? By delaying a funding source for 2+ years so they get to cry to anyone that'll listen how the big bad public won't fund them, and they should be calling tea party fuck bags who don't give a shit about this city or it's residents and BEG them to give the RTA money that they damn near had to get teeth pulled, and send a death blow to labor via RTW, in order to barely get started?

BTW this shows just shitty the original choice in Hertel was. He managed a shitty SMART system [[and no being slightly better than DDOT does not actually make you decent, let alone good). But somehow his "connections" in the area made him suitable for such an important task. He KNEW how much animosity the powers in this state have for public transportation and yet he kept stringing the board and the region along hoping money for a staff would materialize out of thin fucking air. Guess his "connection" didn't really amount to shit did it?

Seems a forward thinking leader would renogotiate his contract. For the first year where there is no funding mechanism, he takes maybe half of his 160K salary, and gives the rest to 2 or 3 graduates of the many fine schools in this state hungry for a job in this shitty economy. And when the funding kicks in his salary scales accordingly. But nah he just goes back to SMART like nothing happened.

Public transportation CAN'T be this difficult. Detroit was the last in the country to [[almost) get their act together. Maybe just maybe it's the same people who have falling down the up escelator for 60 years making it seem so impossible.

[Oddz313]

I will just be happy with a fast transportation from downtown to pontiac on woodward. Waiting with 3 bus loads of people at state fair to go to wayne state was just not cutting it, I had to say screw it and drive my car and pay for gas and parking

[bailey]

But he REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wants to stay. Please, can he stay?

But this is Michigan, where we never punish any of the local or statewide elected leaders for pushing an anti transit agenda think our ideas are the best ideas and work. And don't care for any other evidence or advice.

Fixed that for you. We get the transit we deserve because we're the ones putting those who control it place to continually botch it in the first place.

[stasu1213]

ODdZ, that is what the anti mass transit entities behind the scene want you and other in southeast Michigan to do. Get frustrated and drive your cars. To leave the mass transit idea alone. Yes. I do believe that there is a conspiracy to stop Michigan from getting any form of mass transit.

[That Great Guy]

ODdZ, that is what the anti mass transit entities behind the scene want you and other in southeast Michigan to do. Get frustrated and drive your cars. To leave the mass transit idea alone. Yes. I do believe that there is a conspiracy to stop Michigan from getting any form of mass transit.

YES, there is a conspiracy. It's call the SMART Property Tax Renewal of August 2014

Real Mass Transit Advocates will be voting NO, but most likely not enough to defeat this regressive tax shift.

[chicagoforlife]

It's sad how a city the size of Detroit is so lacking on public transportation. I saw the thing on Detroit on 60 Minutes, they mentioned that the buses always run late and sometimes never show up. It's ridiculous and inexcusable that people have to stand at bus stops in Detroit for two hours or even more waiting on a bus. Our buses here in Chicago run late but the bus shows up in Chicago, most of the time when buses are running late here you'll see another bus on the same route going in the same direction just a few stops behind the bus that's running late.

[Hermod]

It's sad how a city the size of Detroit is so lacking on public transportation. I saw the thing on Detroit on 60 Minutes, they mentioned that the buses always run late and sometimes never show up. It's ridiculous and inexcusable that people have to stand at bus stops in Detroit for two hours or even more waiting on a bus. Our buses here in Chicago run late but the bus shows up in Chicago, most of the time when buses are running late here you'll see another bus on the same route going in the same direction just a few stops behind the bus that's running late.

Someone wrote a book on the mathematics of that phenomenon called "Why Do Buses Run in Threes?"

[chicagoforlife]

Someone wrote a book on the mathematics of that phenomenon called "Why Do Buses Run in Threes?"

We call it bus bunching when that happens. There will be two buses on the same route coming at the same time, sometimes even three buses. It happens on the L too, there it's called train bunching.

[professorscott]

We call it bus bunching when that happens. There will be two buses on the same route coming at the same time, sometimes even three buses. It happens on the L too, there it's called train bunching.

In Detroit the reason the bus doesn't arrive anywhere near the scheduled time, as often as not, is that the bus is simply not on the street at all. The bus is broken down, or there were too few drivers, or both. Detroit doesn't come anywhere near to running even the flimsy schedule that it publishes.

On the lighter lines, where the buses are 40 to 60 minutes apart, to see bunching would be quite the phenomenon indeed. On the busier lines, of course it happens all the time, for the reasons mentioned in that book earlier referred to.