Detroit Public Transportation: 2014 and beyond.

[professorscott]

Detroit residents will likely get a chance to vote next November 2014 to tax car registration fees along with the those in Wayne, Oakland, Macomb and Washtenaw Counties.

A couple things. First of all, where is it coming from that a vote is planned for November 2014? It may be possible, just barely, but "likely" is a very strong word. Second, what was given above was not the RTA's plans; the RTA did not exist when Mr. Murphy wrote that article. He was explaining what the state legislation, now laws, will allow the RTA to do. The RTA has not yet made any specific plans at all. All of their meeting minutes - the board itself and its working committees - are available on SEMCOG's website.

Exactly how the RTA will implement its statutory role to coordinate routes between DDOT and SMART remains to be seen. The current situation is unfortunate. Someone remarked about SMART buses only serving Detroit at peak times; that was the result of a budget crisis brought on by the plummeting real estate market of the past few years.

[That Great Guy]

A couple things. First of all, where is it coming from that a vote is planned for November 2014? It may be possible, just barely, but "likely" is a very strong word. Second, what was given above was not the RTA's plans; the RTA did not exist when Mr. Murphy wrote that article. He was explaining what the state legislation, now laws, will allow the RTA to do. The RTA has not yet made any specific plans at all. All of their meeting minutes - the board itself and its working committees - are available on SEMCOG's website.

Exactly how the RTA will implement its statutory role to coordinate routes between DDOT and SMART remains to be seen. The current situation is unfortunate. Someone remarked about SMART buses only serving Detroit at peak times; that was the result of a budget crisis brought on by the plummeting real estate market of the past few years.

http://crcmich.org/PUBLICAT/2000s/2002/memo1064.pdf

This publication shows how SMART has replaced the property tax as the primary source of funding. Federal and State funding has not kept up with the costs So, we choose bus service reductions? or, small incremental property tax increases?

This area needs safe, clean, reliable and proven cost effective regional public bus services to compete in the Worldwide marketplace which is based on documented facts.

Tax shifting without permanent alternative funding and facilities for those with handicaps, the elderly and the transit dependent are not just immoral but illegal based on Federal laws. This includes the I-94 and I-75 freeway expansions.

SMART is not in compliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or ADA laws, if they continue or support telling the public that a NO vote means cuts in essential funding for the transit dependent.

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't think you're getting it. Gas tax revenues are down. Inflation makes the dollars raised not buy the same amount of service. That means there is less money to run the system so SMART floated the millage. The millage is based on at the best of times 3 percent increases due to prop A. This was supposed to stabilize things. However, there was a bubble that burst and property is now worth less this translates to less revenues. Over the last seven years we have seen the cost of operating vehicles triple.

Yeah, there is stuff in the law regarding that you must provide ADA services, but there is also stuff in the laws that keep federal transit revenues down. The money that is paying for freeways cannot be spent on transit. It is not going to use STP, it will use National Highway System Funds. Act 51 controls that state funds and it states that MDOT gets about 1/3 of the funds after first taking off for the ten percent of the first 15 cents [er gallon tax.

ADA says that you must provide service for the disabled at a minimum level based upon FTA funding. It does not cover FHWA funding or Act 51.

I am not sure what you are trying to conclude by pulling up a 12 year old CRC study. It is mostly irrelevant. If you want a better service then we need to pay more. Simple. Ann Arbor's transit millage is 2 mills or nearly seven times what SMART's millage is and it is not even a world class system, good yes, but it is not running a cadillac service. Decent transit costs.

[professorscott]

SMART is not in compliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or ADA laws, if they continue or support telling the public that a NO vote means cuts in essential funding for the transit dependent.

This has come up before: remember there is no law anywhere that says any community has to provide any public transportation whatever, and many do not. If a community chooses to provide public transportation, then it must follow relevant laws such as the ones you cite.

Cutting service does not violate either of these laws or any other law. Eliminating service altogether does not violate any law. If a community did public transportation, and chose to specifically reduce access to disabled persons, while retaining service for those without disabilities, that would be illegal, but nobody has ever considered such a thing.

I agree with your main premise, that this is a very important service and needs to be improved. But that is a political decision for the community to make, not a violation of law.

[That Great Guy]

This has come up before: remember there is no law anywhere that says any community has to provide any public transportation whatever, and many do not. If a community chooses to provide public transportation, then it must follow relevant laws such as the ones you cite.

Cutting service does not violate either of these laws or any other law. Eliminating service altogether does not violate any law. If a community did public transportation, and chose to specifically reduce access to disabled persons, while retaining service for those without disabilities, that would be illegal, but nobody has ever considered such a thing.

I agree with your main premise, that this is a very important service and needs to be improved. But that is a political decision for the community to make, not a violation of law.

I'm in favor of a 2 mil tax for SMART if there are efforts to put safety first, avoid public bus service reductions and properly manage all transportation tax dollars and tax mechanisms.

[DetroitPlanner]

More info regarding M-1
http://smcg.informz.net/SMCG/data/im...ewsrelease.pdf
http://smcg.informz.net/SMCG/data/im...lichearing.pdf

[Wheels]

Will M1 have this issue?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...z/-/index.html

[Detroitnerd]

Gee, I sure am glad we don't have any rail-based transit in metro Detroit. I really love driving at 20 mph on our glorious, ice-covered freeways and seeing people's cars abandoned by the sides of the roads. All that fishtailing really gets my heart pumping. I'd sure hate to get onto a warm train in the morning that laughs at ice and snow and gets me to work while I read a paper and sip coffee. Those Eastern philistines don't know what they're missing ...

[brizee]

Gee, I sure am glad we don't have any rail-based transit in metro Detroit. I really love driving at 20 mph on our glorious, ice-covered freeways and seeing people's cars abandoned by the sides of the roads. All that fishtailing really gets my heart pumping. I'd sure hate to get onto a warm train in the morning that laughs at ice and snow and gets me to work while I read a paper and sip coffee. Those Eastern philistines don't know what they're missing ...

How about a bus that STILL has to negotiate traffic and slow to 15 mph on days like today?

It's still gonna be at least 5 years before we get it, because reasons.

[Hermod]

Gee, I sure am glad we don't have any rail-based transit in metro Detroit. I really love driving at 20 mph on our glorious, ice-covered freeways and seeing people's cars abandoned by the sides of the roads. All that fishtailing really gets my heart pumping. I'd sure hate to get onto a warm train in the morning that laughs at ice and snow and gets me to work while I read a paper and sip coffee. Those Eastern philistines don't know what they're missing ...

Everybody loves warm, comfortable, and convenient trains [[with on-board wi-fi and stations full of little boutiques and eateries).

Edna needs a train to get her from her home at Mack and Chalmers to her job at lakeside Mall.

Al needs a train to get from 23 Mile and Romeo Plank to his job at Southfield and 9 Mile.

Bill needs a train to get him from Livonia to his job at the Lake Orion auto plant.

Und So Weiter

[Gistok]

Gee, I sure am glad we don't have any rail-based transit in metro Detroit. I really love driving at 20 mph on our glorious, ice-covered freeways and seeing people's cars abandoned by the sides of the roads. All that fishtailing really gets my heart pumping. I'd sure hate to get onto a warm train in the morning that laughs at ice and snow and gets me to work while I read a paper and sip coffee. Those Eastern philistines don't know what they're missing ...

And how would you get from your house to the mythical mass-transit? Either walk or take a car... And for those fortunate enough to walk... won't the same ice-covered freeway conditions be the same for all pedestrian sidewalks [[unless you like to walk in the street)... from your house to the mass-transit? Won't all that heart pumping not put onto the roadway... get channeled to trying to walk over snow drifted and ice covered walkways?? Perhaps a broken limb from slipping on the ice, will take your mind off the pirouettes you won't be making on the freeway?

Better watch what you wish for!

[Detroitnerd]

Everybody loves warm, comfortable, and convenient trains [[with on-board wi-fi and stations full of little boutiques and eateries).

Edna needs a train to get her from her home at Mack and Chalmers to her job at lakeside Mall.

Al needs a train to get from 23 Mile and Romeo Plank to his job at Southfield and 9 Mile.

Bill needs a train to get him from Livonia to his job at the Lake Orion auto plant.

Und So Weiter

On behalf of my entire generation and those younger than me, I'd like to thank your generation for setting up the majority of our built environment as a total clusterfuck that can never be retrofitted up for transit. Job well done, Hermod. Job well done.

[Detroitnerd]

And how would you get from your house to the mythical mass-transit? Either walk or take a car... And for those fortunate enough to walk... won't the same ice-covered freeway conditions be the same for all pedestrian sidewalks [[unless you like to walk in the street)... from your house to the mass-transit? Won't all that heart pumping not put onto the roadway... get channeled to trying to walk over snow drifted and ice covered walkways?? Perhaps a broken limb from slipping on the ice, will take your mind off the pirouettes you won't be making on the freeway?

Better watch what you wish for!

Yeah, I lived two blocks from the subway in New York. Oh, my, that was horrible. I walked two blocks to the subway and was on a dry platform waiting for a train that came every few minutes and was whisked into the city. Yeah. Wow. That was tough. Thanks for the warning, Gistok.

[Detroitnerd]

Because an idea may not work for everybody, there's no reason to offer it.

Oh, wait, that's how cars are for the elderly, blind, poor and minors, among other people.

Oh, well. Fuck it. I'll just embrace this cool double-standard that allows me to dismiss other people's concerns while I demand my own be addressed.

[oladub]

And how would you get from your house to the mythical mass-transit? Either walk or take a car... And for those fortunate enough to walk... won't the same ice-covered freeway conditions be the same for all pedestrian sidewalks [[unless you like to walk in the street)... from your house to the mass-transit? Won't all that heart pumping not put onto the roadway... get channeled to trying to walk over snow drifted and ice covered walkways?? Perhaps a broken limb from slipping on the ice, will take your mind off the pirouettes you won't be making on the freeway?

Better watch what you wish for!

Light rail can be very successful given enough important stops and population density. The Hiawatha line in Minneapolis is stellar success connecting two airport terminals, the Mall of America[[biggest shopping mall in US), the U of MN [[40,000 students), and downtown all in 12.3 miles with 19 stops. Except at both ends of the route, stops are about a mile apart. There is gradual residential and commercial development near its stops other wise, as you point out, the walks can be long. However, stops are at busy intersections served by transfer busses.

[Detroitnerd]

Light rail can be very successful given enough important stops and population density. The Hiawatha line in Minneapolis is stellar success connecting two airport terminals, the Mall of America[[biggest shopping mall in US), the U of MN [[40,000 students), and downtown all in 12.3 miles with 19 stops. Except at both ends of the route, stops are about a mile apart. There is gradual residential and commercial development near its stops other wise, as you point out, the walks can be long. However, stops are at busy intersections served by transfer busses.

Shhhhhh! Oladub! You're not supposed to support light rail! And don't say "light rail"! Use dismissive terms like "choo-choo" or "trolley" or else people might take this thing seriously!

[DetroitPlanner]

All modes will break down in extreme weather. Yesterday the Amtrak was stuck for 8.5 hours between Niles and Michigan City due to it. All of the airports in the country are feeling the impact of what is going on right now. Yes there are serious problems on the roads as well. Subways are great, but they are expensive as heck and will flood out if not maintained.

Transportation is a pain in the butt. That is why it is best to try your best to make minimal movements when the weather is bad.

[Detroitnerd]

All modes will break down in extreme weather. Yesterday the Amtrak was stuck for 8.5 hours between Niles and Michigan City due to it. All of the airports in the country are feeling the impact of what is going on right now. Yes there are serious problems on the roads as well. Subways are great, but they are expensive as heck and will flood out if not maintained.

Transportation is a pain in the butt. That is why it is best to try your best to make minimal movements when the weather is bad.

Short version: Since every single transportation mode has its challenges, let's keep refusing to offer a menu of transportation choices that includes light rail to our citizens.

[mwilbert]

And how would you get from your house to the mythical mass-transit? Either walk or take a car... And for those fortunate enough to walk... won't the same ice-covered freeway conditions be the same for all pedestrian sidewalks [[unless you like to walk in the street)... from your house to the mass-transit? Won't all that heart pumping not put onto the roadway... get channeled to trying to walk over snow drifted and ice covered walkways?? Perhaps a broken limb from slipping on the ice, will take your mind off the pirouettes you won't be making on the freeway? Better watch what you wish for!

Icy condition have their challenges, but my personal experience is that I would much rather walk to the train station [[or drive a much shorter distance to the train station) and take the train than to drive. If nothing else I don't need to worry about whether I'm going to run into someone or something.

[That Great Guy]

For every dollar communities inves in public transportation generates approximatley $4 in economic returns

Source

http://www.apta.com/mediacenter/ptbe...FactSheet.aspx

[Gistok]

.... as long as the trains ARE running... even Mass Transit is affected by weather....
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/01/...-people-mover/

Even trains are affected by the weather...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/d...nwide-21453662

[Detroitnerd]

.... as long as the trains ARE running... even Mass Transit is affected by weather....
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/01/...-people-mover/

Even trains are affected by the weather...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/d...nwide-21453662

I appreciate, Gistok, that you're doing your bit to hold up your end of the debate here, but these are really mild arguments against rail-based transit -- that it is sometimes impeded by ice and snow. I mean, I was driving my manual at about seven mile per hour yesterday for an hour to get home on roads caked with ice, wondering if I was going to die. And I had no choice but to do so. Is having the option of rail-based transit so awful? I guess that's what it comes down to: Give people a choice!

[DetroitPlanner]

For every dollar communities inves in public transportation generates approximatley $4 in economic returns

Source

http://www.apta.com/mediacenter/ptbe...FactSheet.aspx

Wow APTA said that? That is like the Mackinaw Center saying Trickle Down Economics works.

[bailey]

I appreciate, Gistok, that you're doing your bit to hold up your end of the debate here, but these are really mild arguments against rail-based transit -- that it is sometimes impeded by ice and snow. I mean, I was driving my manual at about seven mile per hour yesterday for an hour to get home on roads caked with ice, wondering if I was going to die. And I had no choice but to do so. Is having the option of rail-based transit so awful? I guess that's what it comes down to: Give people a choice!

You have ton of choice. 1) don't live so far from your job in the suburbs. 2) move to a city with transit and ditch the car 3) move to a place where it never snows. 4) work from home/take a vacation day during a once a generation weather event

I mean, you act as if the lack of a rail option is some new thing here. Its been half a century. M-1 going in isn't going to solve your problem either so long as you don't live and work on the only 2.5 miles of rail track that is going to be laid here for the foreseeable future.

And you seem to think that a street running, in traffic "rail" line is going to be immune from the effects of this extreme storm.

[Detroitnerd]

Wow APTA said that? That is like the Mackinaw Center saying Trickle Down Economics works.

No, it's not. You making this spurious comparison is like the Mackinaw Center saying ... anything.