About Hart Plaza...

[paulj313]

Is it just me or is Hart Plaza getting kind of tired? The article is old, but it has some [[somewhat) interesting renderings. What would you do with it? http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...evelopment.php

[rb336]

As far as I know that plan is still on the table

[paulj313]

Do you know where more information could be found? It's kind of hard to tell what they're trying to do.

[DetroitPlanner]

Considering the City is in bankruptcy don't look for anything to advance quickly. I would agree it needs a lot more green. One thing to consider is that there is quite a bit of stuff underneath the park [[food court amphitheatre, galleries, spaces for restaurants, bathrooms, a tunnel for Atwater traffic...) so loads need to be considered. In addition the removal of Ford Auditorium has given the park an opportunity to expand. I would hate to see this property be used for another riverfront parking structure.

Chances are the rec department was behind the renderings. I would start there.

[paulj313]

When did they stop using all the stuff underground?

[Scottathew]

Paul,

I very much agree with you. It needs more green space. It looks like a large monumental concrete desert that separates Jefferson from the river.

I'd like to see a scenic path connect the Woodward/Jefferson entry point to the riverwalk.

I don't know how that would jive with events there, I've never been to a Hart Plaza event.

[paulj313]

Oh wow, this is quite the long shot, but it looks pretty cool. http://www.v1-studio.com/Hart.html

[DetroitPlanner]

When did they stop using all the stuff underground?

It was a slow process. First they had issues keeping the restaurant open, later there were problems with warring crowds at ethnic festivals so they abandoned the beer booths which led to fewer of the food vendors being able to make a go of it. [[Yugo fest was the worst) Last time I was down there was a few years back, just before the Ford Auditorium was torn down. I was walking from the riverfront and thought it would have made a good shortcut back to my office. It reminded me of 'The Fisher King', and it was simply a place for the homeless to get out of the cold.

[401don]

It's hard to believe but it's gone from an event every weekend to about 3 or 4 events all summer. It really needs a makeover but there needs to be a way to draw office workers across Jefferson on their lunches and not just as a festival location. It would be nice if convention visitors had a reason to walk through it down to the new Cobo riverfront entrance also.

[rb336]

Oh wow, this is quite the long shot, but it looks pretty cool. http://www.v1-studio.com/Hart.html

putting a canal up to Campus Martius? that puts it out of the "long shot" heading into the WTF category. It is, however, kinda cool

[motz]

I can say that for Pride and Movement, the two festivals I attend regularly every year, they make some use of the underground areas, the beverage counters, etc. The best was 2012 when they had the Biergarten during Movement by Ford Auditorium, but now with that gone, it didn't make a return in 2013.

I'd love to see more greenspace in Hart Plaza, but I also agree that they need to start pushing for more festivals and gatherings and other usages of the space. It has an amazing location and has so much potential, it feels like using it for a few festivals a year and letting it be empty the rest of the spring/summer/fall is just an utter waste.

[stasu1213]

I think that the concrete concept was used to make Hart Plaza durable to substain outdoor concerts and festivals. It does look like a concrete jungle but it was made to handle all sorts of events. Cheaper to maintain than mowing large area of grass. Look at how many years the concrete had lasted on Hart Plaza. I wished that it was left alone with the exception with few changes.

[mikeg19]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd fill it in and turn it into green space. It looks purely brutal. If Chicago can turn that cluster of roads and railroad lines on the waterfront into Millennium Park, which is ten times the size of Hart Plaza, I figure something can be done. But I don't understand the need to build another amphitheater there when Chene Park is down the street. Building one to abandon another doesn't make any sense, especially now that the riverwalk will soon be completed all the way to Belle Isle and the Globe Building across the street is under construction.

[Novine]

The problem isn't that lack of green space or that it's "tired", it's how it's situated within the context of downtown. You have Cobo to the south, a major border crossing to the north and the entrance/exit ramp to a freeway at the only major pedestrian crossing to the park. All conspire to make it less accessible while not generating any significant traffic to the park. If it was directly adjacent to the Ren Cen or some other significant generator of pedestrian traffic, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Gistok]

I agree that tearing down the Chene Park Amphitheatre would be a gross waste of money, especially since the 1970s era [[or was that 1980s era?) 3,000 seat amphitheatre was torn down to rebuild the hill into a larger 5,000 seat amphitheatre on the same site in the 1990s. Also, noise from the existing amphitheatre is a non-issue, since people living in the area knew what they were moving into, plus those very few concerts held there are done by 10PM or 11PM.

[rb336]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd fill it in and turn it into green space. It looks purely brutal. If Chicago can turn that cluster of roads and railroad lines on the waterfront into Millennium Park, which is ten times the size of Hart Plaza, I figure something can be done. But I don't understand the need to build another amphitheater there when Chene Park is down the street. Building one to abandon another doesn't make any sense, especially now that the riverwalk will soon be completed all the way to Belle Isle and the Globe Building across the street is under construction.

Millennium Park 24.5 acres, Hart Plaza 14 acres. 66% larger. [[Milliken State Park - created more or less the same time as MP - is over 30 acres) As readers here may already know, there are two things in Chicago that I don't think have a very high opinion of - the Soldier Field tumor and Millennium Park. Pritzker Pavilion - more Gehry garbage. The "cloud gate"? ooooo it's shiny! like a chrome-plated jelly belly. Most over-rated piece of public art in the world. When Hart Plaza was first built 30 years before MP, it was heralded by all kinds of people in the art and landscape world. Warhol called it the best public space in the country.

Yes, Hart Plaza needs an overhaul. Chicago built MP with funding from AT&T. Maybe DG could pony up the funds to re-work Hart Plaza.

[preserve]

Hadn't been to Hart Plaza since the demise of the ethnic festivals. Went to this year's Jazz Festival and have to say I was mildly impressed. It wasn't like the old days, but it was okay. Friendly people lining the lower stage, making room for strollers and wheel chairs. Made me think that maybe it would be possible to start up the festivals again.

[gthomas]

Lets get to point here...Hart Plaza needs a major overhaul. It needs to be [[Campus Martius Park) x10! It "NEEDS" to have more green-space, Trees/Flowers etc.), [[pocket parks), lodging areas, botanical gardens, water features [[interactive), dynamic art sculptures, modern small bridges/pavilions, retail [[water-front themed, Ex: Bubba Gump Shrimp restaurant), Amphitheater [[replacing Chene Park) and expanded/connecting the park to GM [[Renaissance building) to Cobo Center [[Pedestrian-friendly ONLY).

This is the only way I can see Hart Plaza becoming something great. Never settle for less..

[401don]

Lets get to point here...Hart Plaza needs a major overhaul. It needs to be [[Campus Martius Park) x10! It "NEEDS" to have more green-space, Trees/Flowers etc.), [[pocket parks), lodging areas, botanical gardens, water features [[interactive), dynamic art sculptures, modern small bridges/pavilions, retail [[water-front themed, Ex: Bubba Gump Shrimp restaurant), Amphitheater [[replacing Chene Park) and expanded/connecting the park to GM [[Renaissance building) to Cobo Center [[Pedestrian-friendly ONLY).

This is the only way I can see Hart Plaza becoming something great. Never settle for less..

Lodging areas? Well I guess Windsor's waterfront did have a Holiday Inn.

[65memories]

What was the name of the restaurant below Hart Plaza? Was it the Down Under or something like that?

[Gistok]

Ummmm... does Hart Plaza really need an overhaul? Are the finished areas decrepit? Or do they just need something done with the Ford Auditorium site? Why plan on yet another "redo"... if there are no SET plans for the site...

Is yet a 3rd try at an amphitheatre the winning solution? Or more good money thrown after bad? The current Chene Park Amphitheatre didn't fail because of poor attendance due to bad location... but due to lack of product and promotion...

We've already tried the "build it and they will come" mentality... and it hasn't worked so far... what will another redo change??

[DetroitPlanner]

What was the name of the restaurant below Hart Plaza? Was it the Down Under or something like that?

Yes it was then followed by a Chinese one owned by a Windsor family.

[rb336]

Yes it was then followed by a Chinese one owned by a Windsor family.

it was owned by the Queen?

[Gistok]

it was owned by the Queen?

No... as the Chinese would say... "That's Wong!"

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The Hart Plaza dilemma, as we might call it, is fundamentally asking the question: why do so few people use such a seemingly well-situated space in downtown Detroit? The answers to that are many, and hinted at above. While there are many factors, 3 stand out as most important
1) It is between many populated things [[RenCen, Cobo, City-County Building, etc), not many people really walk by it. And while new office workers and downtown residents are sprouting all over downtown, they are not sprouting in and around Hart Plaza. You don't just step out of your office/apartment/hotel room into Hart Plaza. You tack on a long walk or a PM ride.

2) The space itself is rather large, cold, and void of many attractions. It lacks amusements of any kind, has just a tiny amount of green space, and very little in the way of nearby shops/restaurants/bars that integrate well with urban parks.

3) It has very few "events" booked there nowadays to attract people to the park. That can be important for any urban park, but doubly so with Hart Plaza, because it is not woven into downtown like Campus Martius or GCP, or the rest of the RiverWalk.

I do think that there is room for hope and improvement, though. And the improvements needn't be either expensive or all at once. Being a large space, Hart Plaza really needs to have a number of different components. First, I would say, it should exploit the RiverWalk. Especially as the RW works it's way towards the Ambassador bridge, more recreational walkers/bikers/runners/roller bladers will be passing by. I think the RW path should split into several "paths" that allow people to more easily come up into the plaza; and it should include open [[and clean and safe) restrooms and refreshments. Perhaps also having an additional bike rental kiosk there, and summertime and weekend Segway Detroit tours starting and ending in the Plaza. I don't think an ampitheatre is worth the money. In addition to Chene Park, Campus Martius is set up to hold concerts as well. The Ford Auditorium space should be a lush open lawn, for picnicing or playing games [[they should rent frisbees, footballs, etc). Additional little "pockets" of grass, trees, and flowers should be scattered about. Speakers should be installed throughout, and music should be played in several "zones." Classical by the RiverWalk, Country by the Fountain, Motown on the lawn, etc Food vendors who commit to serve a certain set of uniform hours should be given a free licence to operate in the Plaza or along Jefferson [[full disclosure: I would seek such a license). But the final idea for Hart Plaza is that it should be Detroit's default outdoor event space. Mayor Duggan should have someone aggressively book art shows, concerts, ethnic food festivals, Renaissance fairs, yoga classes on the lawn, public dance events, etc. Ballroom dancing in the Plaza at Lincoln Center in New York attracts hundreds of dancers every week in NY, with more gathering to watch.

Oh, and push M1 Rail to start at Hart Plaza! Why Congress St?