Austin Points The Way: More Freeways AREN'T the Answer to Traffic

[nain rouge]

As American cities go, Austin, Texas is one of the great success stories. It's lauded for its vibrant creative culture, has low unemployment, and is exploding population.

Austin also has - believe it or not - only one freeway running through the city. With the suburbs filling up along with the city, rush hour gridlock has become a serious, serious problem.

The conventional answer is to build more freeways. But according to researchers at Texas A&M, even if you were to build more freeways in Austin, traffic will still slow to an absolute standstill at peak times.

According to the computer models researchers used, the only reliable way to reduce congestion is for more people to move to the center. And roughly 40% of the population would have to do that to bring commutes back down to reasonable lengths.

Turns out you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't live in McMansion Sprawville and have fast commutes.

Don't believe me? Read the NPR piece:http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757...traffic-tangle

[Wesley Mouch]

As American cities go, Austin, Texas is one of the great success stories. It's lauded for its vibrant creative culture, has low unemployment, and is exploding population.

Austin also has - believe it or not - only one freeway running through the city. With the suburbs filling up along with the city, rush hour gridlock has become a serious, serious problem.

The conventional answer is to build more freeways. But according to researchers at Texas A&M, even if you were to build more freeways in Austin, traffic will still slow to an absolute standstill at peak times.

According to the computer models researchers used, the only reliable way to reduce congestion is for more people to move to the center. And roughly 40% of the population would have to do that to bring commutes back down to reasonable lengths.

Turns out you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't live in McMansion Sprawville and have fast commutes.

Don't believe me? Read the NPR piece:http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757...traffic-tangle

Amen. For all my arguing for 94 improvements, I believe that this is true. There's little point in trying to eliminate congestion. All you can do is build reasonable roads and freeways, and let it happen. And once you have real congestion -- the likes of which Detroit hasn't seen for 50 years -- the demand for public transit will grow.

[nain rouge]

There's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to freeways that people don't get. I recently had the unfortunate displeasure of driving from 9 Mile to Flint on a recent Friday evening, and I couldn't believe how long the traffic jam on I-75 was. It was backed up or extremely slow from 9 Mile to Holly, Michigan. Only after Holly was going over 50 MPH even an option.

In this scenario, say you add another lane or two north of Great Lakes Crossing. All you do is encourage a few more subdivisions in Independence Township, and the whole mess starts all over again.

[Wesley Mouch]

There's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to freeways that people don't get. I recently had the unfortunate displeasure of driving from 9 Mile to Flint on a recent Friday evening, and I couldn't believe how long the traffic jam on I-75 was. It was backed up or extremely slow from 9 Mile to Holly, Michigan. Only after Holly was going over 50 MPH even an option.

In this scenario, say you add another lane or two north of Great Lakes Crossing. All you do is encourage a few more subdivisions in Independence Township, and the whole mess starts all over again.

Absolutely. But one should at least maximize what you have already invested in.

[nain rouge]

Well, if you want to talk about maximizing prior investments, there's that little city called Detroit. And if we filled in some of those empty spaces again, it'd probably fix things a lot more than billion dollar freeway lanes.

[That Great Guy]

Voting NO for all transportation tax increases is the only way to stop the vast freeway expansions in greater Detroit including the SMART August 2014 renewal at this time. They will never work to serve any need but greed unless changed to serve everyone equally.

ACT 51 which is the ten percent of the State fuel tax for existing mass transit is a dead issue at this time. And you all will see this with both the Federal and State fuel taxes possibly doubling, unless you get in writing first for safe public community transit service to get some of this money. It won't happen on it's own.

[Bham1982]

So now Austin, one of the most car-oriented cities in the U.S., with no real transit to speak of, is considered the ideal for transit acoyltes on DYes?

Austin has four major freeway capacity improvements according to Texas DOT-

http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/sites.html

[DetroitPlanner]

There's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to freeways that people don't get. I recently had the unfortunate displeasure of driving from 9 Mile to Flint on a recent Friday evening, and I couldn't believe how long the traffic jam on I-75 was. It was backed up or extremely slow from 9 Mile to Holly, Michigan. Only after Holly was going over 50 MPH even an option.

In this scenario, say you add another lane or two north of Great Lakes Crossing. All you do is encourage a few more subdivisions in Independence Township, and the whole mess starts all over again.

Maybe you should have taken Dixie instead of contributing to the congestion on the road you hate?

[ghettopalmetto]

According to the computer models researchers used, the only reliable way to reduce congestion is for more people to move to the center. And roughly 40% of the population would have to do that to bring commutes back down to reasonable lengths.

To allow this to happen, though, the local zoning regulations have to permit higher density uses than typical suburban zoning, and perhaps reduce minimum parking requirements [[in order to encourage more development and make the streetscapes more walkable). I don't know that most local zoning departments are sophisticated enough to understand this phenomenon. It's far easier to resort to the same cookbook they've used for decades.

[Wesley Mouch]

To allow this to happen, though, the local zoning regulations have to permit higher density uses than typical suburban zoning, and perhaps reduce minimum parking requirements [[in order to encourage more development and make the streetscapes more walkable). I don't know that most local zoning departments are sophisticated enough to understand this phenomenon. It's far easier to resort to the same cookbook they've used for decades.

Zoning Departments may not understand, but the real problem will be the existing residents. People living in a fairly dense neighborhood may not like allowing residences along alleys, multi-family dwellings, demolition of homes on streets like Trumbull and replacing them with apartment/condo buildings. We see the resistance to 'gentrification'. Wait till you see 'densification'.

[Dan Wesson]

Expansion in Michigan was once necessary and possible. The Future is Contraction.

Plan accordingly.

[ghettopalmetto]

Zoning Departments may not understand, but the real problem will be the existing residents. People living in a fairly dense neighborhood may not like allowing residences along alleys, multi-family dwellings, demolition of homes on streets like Trumbull and replacing them with apartment/condo buildings. We see the resistance to 'gentrification'. Wait till you see 'densification'.

Well, "fairly dense" is a relative concept.

I have a buddy who is president of his homeowners association in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is perhaps one of the poster children for suburban sprawl. The county has been trying to create more population density near public transit. At first mention of the word "density", some residents think you're trying to build Calcutta in their backyard. I think a lot of it is a visceral reaction to the thought of "The Other" moving into their pristine kingdom.

[Honky Tonk]

Well, after sitting in a 45 minute traffic jam last Monday evening, trying to get from I-75 South to the Geektown exit, I think they not only need to expand I-375, widen the off-ramp to 4 lanes, but re-add the Woodward off-ramp as well, to alleviate traffic congestion for Ford Field, Comerica Park, and the Geektown Casino. You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to.

[Novine]

"You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to."

How is that accomplished with more freeways? In the scenario you described, someone already living in the city isn't going to be helped by freeway widenings. Don't want to deal with the congestion? Live in the city where you can use alternative routes and modes of transportation to get from point A to point B.

[313WX]

Well, after sitting in a 45 minute traffic jam last Monday evening, trying to get from I-75 South to the Geektown exit, I think they not only need to expand I-375, widen the off-ramp to 4 lanes, but re-add the Woodward off-ramp as well, to alleviate traffic congestion for Ford Field, Comerica Park, and the Geektown Casino. You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to.

Why didn't you take Grand River as an alternate route?

[Honky Tonk]

"You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to."

How is that accomplished with more freeways? In the scenario you described, someone already living in the city isn't going to be helped by freeway widenings. Don't want to deal with the congestion? Live in the city where you can use alternative routes and modes of transportation to get from point A to point B.

I just told you how it would help, I sat in a non-moving traffic jam for 45 minutes. I actually live in the City but work in the 'burbs, as many Detroit residents do. How is dealing with traffic jams from casino and stadium traffic slowing my return helping me? Do you actually think if I-375 was removed, and turned into a "stop & go" boulevard THAT would help? I already know all the alternative routes. Not knowing what is going on until you get to that point leaves you no choice. Ever been on Woodward & Mack & I-75 after one of the games? Gridlock for miles in each direction. Those are both boulevards.

[iheartthed]

So now Austin, one of the most car-oriented cities in the U.S., with no real transit to speak of, is considered the ideal for transit acoyltes on DYes?

Austin has four major freeway capacity improvements according to Texas DOT-

http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/sites.html

I was in Austin earlier this month. It's certainly not more car oriented than Metro Detroit. It also feels a lot more centralized than Detroit. But at least in Austin there is an honest debate about whether it makes sense to invest in more highway capacity or to invest in alternative transit options.

Even Dallas, which was probably more decentralized than Detroit at one point, started to invest in rail lines over a decade ago.

[Honky Tonk]

Why didn't you take Grand River as an alternate route?

See my comments above. Thanx for the tip.

[ghettopalmetto]

I just told you how it would help, I sat in a non-moving traffic jam for 45 minutes.

Do you think that could have been the result of 65,000 people ALL riding in cars, leaving the SAME location at the SAME time? I mean, you're only dumping the equivalent of the daily traffic load of a *very* busy road onto one point on the network all at once.

A freeway lane has a capacity of 1200 vehicles an hour. In the event of a football game letting out, let's assume there are 3 people per vehicle. You'd need eighteen lanes of freeway just to clear that crowd in an hour. Which means even the addition of one lane wouldn't help squat. Forty-five minutes, you didn't do too badly.

We'll get MDOT working on your own private lane ASAP.

[Novine]

If you don't want congestion and traffic, live in Romeo. Ever tried driving in downtown DC or NYC? Even out in Novi, I don't get the luxury of having a freeway exit to my front door. Why do you think that's a realistic expectation for someone living in the city?

[Honky Tonk]

If you don't want congestion and traffic, live in Romeo. Ever tried driving in downtown DC or NYC? Even out in Novi, I don't get the luxury of having a freeway exit to my front door. Why do you think that's a realistic expectation for someone living in the city?

First of all, I don't live anywhere near I-375, but need it to get home in reasonable time. I think either you're not getting what I'm trying to say, you think coffe shops and bike paths are going to generate enough revenue to make City services and population viable, or, you're looking for an argument, [[I think the 3rd), for which I don't care to engage in. I think, since you're so into greenways, you should start protesting in Lansing, to have them remove a few lanes from 696 in front of the Novi Mall. I'm very familier with Romeo, in fact, I was there Saturday. Nice town. People still leave their doors unlocked.

[Novine]

You're right, I don't get what you're saying. You live in the city. As ghettopalmetto noted, you're trying to drive through an area of the city at the same time there's major events going on that's bringing tens of thousands of people into the city in their cars. What do you expect? I try to avoid driving on Novi Road past Twelve Oaks Mall this time of year because it gets massively congested with holiday shoppers. It goes with the territory. If I didn't want to ever deal with that, I could move to South Lyon. But I don't expect the answer is to widen Novi Road to twelve lanes or to expect that the road will never be congested. I find an alternative route or drive the area at non-peak times or I deal with it.

[Left_For_Texas]

Austin has only one interstate running through town not only one freeway. There are many freeways and toll ways that are up to interstate standards, but they can't keep up with the growth. Austin's traffic is often nightmarish because the population has been increasing by about 5,000-6,000 a month. Austin is model city for just about everything except anything related to transportation.

Based on my last few visits back to Michigan I would say any money available for roads should go for maintenance over capacity. Some of the freeways are in horrible condition.

[nain rouge]

Maybe you should have taken Dixie instead of contributing to the congestion on the road you hate?

I thought about it, but given all the lights on Dixie [[up to almost Clarkston), I wasn't sure how much better I would've made out at rush hour.

Don't get me wrong. When I lived in Eastpointe, I always took Gratiot into Detroit. Always. On the near west side, I generally prefer Woodward. The problem with surface streets, though, is we have people making ungodly commutes from places like 23 & Romeo Plank, or from somewhere way out it in Highland. Surface streets just don't cut it, either because there are too many lights, or the route breaks off too often.

You can keep trying to "improve" the freeways for these people, but it'll never work long term. You're gonna spend a billion for a 5% improvement. After about 8 lanes, it should be clear you've done about all you realistically can. But hey, Ma Obama is willing to fork over the play money, so why not?

[Khorasaurus]

Well, after sitting in a 45 minute traffic jam last Monday evening, trying to get from I-75 South to the Geektown exit, I think they not only need to expand I-375, widen the off-ramp to 4 lanes, but re-add the Woodward off-ramp as well, to alleviate traffic congestion for Ford Field, Comerica Park, and the Geektown Casino. You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to.

I'm a little confused. Where were you trying to get to? And where were you coming from?