Orion Festival 2014

**warsaw7** · December-02-13, 07:10 PM

Can't say I didn't see this coming. Not buying the fact that they are touring in Europe the same time the festival would have taken place. If this is their "flagship" festival, don't you think they would have scheduled their European tour a little differently? Something is not afloat here. In my opinion I believe the state takeover has something to do with this. Feel free to chime in, as I am curious as to why this festival is suddenly not taking place on Belle Isle anymore.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

**Bham1982** · December-02-13, 07:12 PM

A heavy metal concert is an absurdly inappropriate use for state parkland.

**Johnnny5** · December-02-13, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by warsaw7

Can't say I didn't see this coming. Not buying the fact that they are touring in Europe the same time the festival would have taken place. If this is their "flagship" festival, don't you think they would have scheduled their European tour a little differently? Something is not afloat here. In my opinion I believe the state takeover has something to do with this. Feel free to chime in, as I am curious as to why this festival is suddenly not taking place on Belle Isle anymore.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

I'm sure the DNR was less than excited about hosting the event, and honestly I don't think that's such a bad thing. The city gained very little from the festival due to it's isolated location and many people [[Myself included) were upset about how disruptive the festival was for other users of the park.

**Honky Tonk** · December-03-13, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by warsaw7

Can't say I didn't see this coming. Not buying the fact that they are touring in Europe the same time the festival would have taken place. If this is their "flagship" festival, don't you think they would have scheduled their European tour a little differently? Something is not afloat here. In my opinion I believe the state takeover has something to do with this. Feel free to chime in, as I am curious as to why this festival is suddenly not taking place on Belle Isle anymore.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

Hey! Good News!

**dmike76** · December-03-13, 08:13 AM

I actually don't think this has anything to do with the state takeover. It seems to me that Metallica was not making enough money or losing money on this show. It seems like they're not having the show at all, not moving it to another city. Also, I don't have a problem with this event on Belle Isle. IMO, they need to have more events during the summer to make money for the park and the city.

**mikeg19** · December-03-13, 09:46 AM

So this is "Good News" to some people? I'm not sure how. Possibly the most popular heavy metal band of all time decides to bring a festival to Detroit. The first year nobody knows what to expect, as it's trying to gain its footing and establish itself. I'm sure there were a lot of wrinkles, as there should be putting on a show this large. I hear all the time from people saying that it'd be nice if Detroit had a festival like Bonaroo or Coachella to hang its hat on. I'm fairly certain those festivals didn't draw hundreds of thousands in their infancy.

You guys really thought it was so "disruptive" to other users of the park, yet I don't hear you bitching and moaning about the Grand Prix every year or the boat races. Don't be selective and single out something when there are other events that take over the entire island for a weekend as well. I almost think it's a perfect spot for a concert venue. Or would you rather have music blaring in downtown for three days like DEMF, with people trashing the city and nobody left to pick up after it once it's over?

How did the city gain "very little" from the concert? They got paid to host it, the fields that it took place on were replanted by the concert promoter, and it essentially gave Detroit another event that to host on a yearly basis. I think that hosting a signature event like this is exactly the type of thing Detroit needs, and the mentality that it's small potatoes and no big deal is flat out wrong.

**Bham1982** · December-03-13, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

You guys really thought it was so "disruptive" to other users of the park, yet I don't hear you bitching and moaning about the Grand Prix every year or the boat races.

I assume none of these things will occur at Belle Isle if the state control actually goes through and it's officially designated a state park.

Can you imagine car racing, heavy metal concerts, and speedboat races at state parks? That's completely at odds with the purpose of state parkland.

If the city wants to keep Belle Isle, they can do whatever they want. But the state should not allow such disruptive uses on state parkland.

It would really suck to have rock concerts and drag racing at Hartwick Pines, Saugatuck Dunes, Ludington, or Tahquamenon Falls Parks. Why would we expect a different set of rules for Belle Isle? No hillbilly races or death metal festivals on state parkland, please.

**dmike76** · December-03-13, 10:25 AM

I think a lot of people have a problem with the GP and Orion is not being singled out. Also, Belle Isle does and should live by different rules than the other state parks, IMO. It is in Detroit and extremely unique. Given its location in a major city, it should be partially used as a tourist/event destination for concerts, etc. It doesn't have to always be shows like Orion festival, but there should be something there every weekend in season. Belle Isle is pretty big, and there is plenty of room for events without 'disrupting' park-goers. The only disruption is the fact that there's only one bridge, which is valid . On a side note, I think that next year's inaugural Assemble event should do something there.

**mikeg19** · December-03-13, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I assume none of these things will occur at Belle Isle if the state control actually goes through and it's officially designated a state park.

Can you imagine car racing, heavy metal concerts, and speedboat races at state parks? That's completely at odds with the purpose of state parkland.

If the city wants to keep Belle Isle, they can do whatever they want. But the state should not allow such disruptive uses on state parkland.

It would really suck to have rock concerts and drag racing at Hartwick Pines, Saugatuck Dunes, Ludington, or Tahquamenon Falls Parks. Why would we expect a different set of rules for Belle Isle? No hillbilly races or death metal festivals on state parkland, please.

I understand what you're saying Bham, but the places you've listed are pristine wonders of natural beauty. Belle Isle is an overgrown island with a beach masquerading as a State Park. Not to say it's not a unique venue and a little TLC will make it more appealing, but lets be real here. I'd think that the state might make an exception and allow the Grand Prix to be continued on the island.

**motz** · December-03-13, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

I understand what you're saying Bham, but the places you've listed are pristine wonders of natural beauty. Belle Isle is an overgrown island with a beach masquerading as a State Park. Not to say it's not a unique venue and a little TLC will make it more appealing, but lets be real here. I'd think that the state might make an exception and allow the Grand Prix to be continued on the island.

Yeah Bham, ummm, if you haven't checked a map recently, Belle Isle is in the city limits of the largest city in Michigan, and Hartwick Pines, etc are located in fairly isolated locations. If the state can find a way to generate more money and reinvestment it into the park, I support it fully. Grand Prix races, concerts, festivals, etc are all great ideas to draw people to the island that would not normally come and possibly create some new friends of the park. Saying that all state park land has to have these strict usages doesn't make sense when one of these things isn't like the others.

**Johnnny5** · December-03-13, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

So this is "Good News" to some people? I'm not sure how. Possibly the most popular heavy metal band of all time decides to bring a festival to Detroit. The first year nobody knows what to expect, as it's trying to gain its footing and establish itself. I'm sure there were a lot of wrinkles, as there should be putting on a show this large. I hear all the time from people saying that it'd be nice if Detroit had a festival like Bonaroo or Coachella to hang its hat on. I'm fairly certain those festivals didn't draw hundreds of thousands in their infancy.

You guys really thought it was so "disruptive" to other users of the park, yet I don't hear you bitching and moaning about the Grand Prix every year or the boat races. Don't be selective and single out something when there are other events that take over the entire island for a weekend as well. I almost think it's a perfect spot for a concert venue. Or would you rather have music blaring in downtown for three days like DEMF, with people trashing the city and nobody left to pick up after it once it's over?

How did the city gain "very little" from the concert? They got paid to host it, the fields that it took place on were replanted by the concert promoter, and it essentially gave Detroit another event that to host on a yearly basis. I think that hosting a signature event like this is exactly the type of thing Detroit needs, and the mentality that it's small potatoes and no big deal is flat out wrong.

The "good news" is those that would like to use the park for things like fishing, picnics, hand ball and cycling won't be blocked from doing so for weeks on end this year. The Orion Festival closed the entire park to just about every other use for 3 days, and the preparations and cleanup closed sections of the park for weeks. If the Orion was the only event that did this there would not be a lot of complaining, but add the Grand Prix and the boat races and we have nearly half of the prime summertime dealing with closures, barricades and construction crews.

I have zero issues with the Orion Festival coming to Detroit, heck I even considered going to it myself last year. The problem I have is it's a for profit festival and allowing it to basically take over the entire island is not an appropriate use of a public park. You mention both Bonaroo and Coachella, but both of these festivals are held in the sticks and on private property, not a major city or a park. A better example would be Lolapalooza in Chicago's Grant Park. The bad part there is in years past rain turned the location into a mud pit and the large number of attendees caused major damages that closed sections of the park for months and cost nearly 1 million dollars to repair.

**Bham1982** · December-03-13, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by motz

. Grand Prix races, concerts, festivals, etc are all great ideas to draw people to the island that would not normally come and possibly create some new friends of the park. Saying that all state park land has to have these strict usages doesn't make sense when one of these things isn't like the others.

I think these are terrible ideas for state parkland, and don't understand the effort to have the rules not apply to Belle Isle.

To me, this is yet another example of "Hey Michigan, we want your money, but, no, we don't want your accountability".

If state money, ostensibly going for natural preservation, is used on Belle Isle, the state should not be soliciting private operators for monster truck rallys or whatever nonsense. It should be preserved as open space for recreation and enjoyment, not privatized and commercially exploited. I could see a very limited number of events, under very strict guidelines, maybe, but less is more and all control and revenues should go to Lansing.

The whole argument in favor of making Belle Isle a Metropark or State Park was to have Detroit treated the same as everywhere else. Now everyone is saying let Belle Isle be as freewheeling as before, but let's just take the state's money.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-03-13, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I think these are terrible ideas for state parkland, and don't understand the effort to have the rules not apply to Belle Isle.

This is certainly not a typical DNR style park. There will be no hunting here, no camping, none of those things. It will be more like the Milliken State Park, but with controlled access points.

Belle Isle is most similar to a State Park the way that Mackinaw Island belongs as a State Park. This is in more ways than both of them simply being islands. Both serve a specialized purpose with Belle Isle being more active recreation like Softball, Biking, Handball, Museums; and Mackinac being a history park with scenic and historic attractions. Both parks were taken over from other institutions, with Mackinaw being the second National park chartered and Belle Isle obviously under City control. Both provide attractions that the areas consider important both in cultural and historical respects.

Bands have long been part of Belle Isle's past from the early years up until the 1980's. I too am concerned by the scale of something like Orion and the impacts of that on the park. It is simply too big of a festival; I am also concerned about the impacts of the Grand Prix, but at least that seems to have had some success in spite of it leaving some parts of the island with more pavement than it probably should have.

**Honky Tonk** · December-03-13, 12:17 PM

So this is "Good News" to some people? I'm not sure how.

I'm was tired of listening to Metal Licka' 5 minutes after they started. You don't seem to realize that this isn't Yasgur's farm. People actually LIVE around there and make that area their home. Some don't want to spend their days off listening to loud, head banging, "music".

You guys really thought it was so "disruptive" to other users of the park, yet I don't hear you bitching and moaning about the Grand Prix every year or the boat races.

Probably because you're deaf from the Metal Licka' "concert".

Don't be selective and single out something when there are other events that take over the entire island for a weekend as well. I almost think it's a perfect spot for a concert venue. Or would you rather have music blaring in downtown for three days like DEMF, with people trashing the city and nobody left to pick up after it once it's over?

WOW! We wouldn't want to disturb the sleeping yupsters in Midtown, now, do we? But trash and disturb the populace and the area around Belle Isle? Well, that's Ok. "As long as it isn't in your backyard".

How did the city gain "very little" from the concert? They got paid to host it, the fields that it took place on were replanted by the concert promoter, and it essentially gave Detroit another event that to host on a yearly basis. I think that hosting a signature event like this is exactly the type of thing Detroit needs, and the mentality that it's small potatoes and no big deal is flat out wrong.

Thanx for your thoughts. Tell you what, host it in your backyard, and keep the money.

**mikeg19** · December-03-13, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

So this is "Good News" to some people? I'm not sure how.

I'm was tired of listening to Metal Licka' 5 minutes after they started. You don't seem to realize that this isn't Yasgur's farm. People actually LIVE around there and make that area their home. Some don't want to spend their days off listening to loud, head banging, "music".

You guys really thought it was so "disruptive" to other users of the park, yet I don't hear you bitching and moaning about the Grand Prix every year or the boat races.

Probably because you're deaf from the Metal Licka' "concert".

Don't be selective and single out something when there are other events that take over the entire island for a weekend as well. I almost think it's a perfect spot for a concert venue. Or would you rather have music blaring in downtown for three days like DEMF, with people trashing the city and nobody left to pick up after it once it's over?

WOW! We wouldn't want to disturb the sleeping yupsters in Midtown, now, do we? But trash and disturb the populace and the area around Belle Isle? Well, that's Ok. "As long as it isn't in your backyard".

How did the city gain "very little" from the concert? They got paid to host it, the fields that it took place on were replanted by the concert promoter, and it essentially gave Detroit another event that to host on a yearly basis. I think that hosting a signature event like this is exactly the type of thing Detroit needs, and the mentality that it's small potatoes and no big deal is flat out wrong.

Thanx for your thoughts. Tell you what, host it in your backyard, and keep the money.

I'm not going to get into a trivial argument over something you're incorrect about. I can literally refute every idiotic comment you made but don't really wanna waste my time.

**Honky Tonk** · December-03-13, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

I'm not going to get into a trivial argument over something you're incorrect about. I can literally refute every idiotic comment you made but don't really wanna waste my time.

Great! Because you'd be wasting mine too.

**mikeg19** · December-03-13, 12:49 PM

I'd say based on the comments you have made in other threads, you've wasted more people's time than most on this board, and that's saying something.....

So anyways, based on the state running Belle Isle, is it no longer going to be able to host events like the Grand Prix and such? Is there a clause that says state parks are not allowed to have major events like that hosted in their boarders? Can someone clarify please?

**JHatch1569** · December-03-13, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I think these are terrible ideas for state parkland, and don't understand the effort to have the rules not apply to Belle Isle.

To me, this is yet another example of "Hey Michigan, we want your money, but, no, we don't want your accountability".

If state money, ostensibly going for natural preservation, is used on Belle Isle, the state should not be soliciting private operators for monster truck rallys or whatever nonsense. It should be preserved as open space for recreation and enjoyment, not privatized and commercially exploited. I could see a very limited number of events, under very strict guidelines, maybe, but less is more and all control and revenues should go to Lansing.

The whole argument in favor of making Belle Isle a Metropark or State Park was to have Detroit treated the same as everywhere else. Now everyone is saying let Belle Isle be as freewheeling as before, but let's just take the state's money.

Pontiac Lake Rec Area [[another state park) host "Quake on the Lake" hydroplane races every year. The event used to be hosted on a private lake many years ago but moved to PLRC due to logistics and other circumstances.

I don't see why the state would view Belle Isle any differently as long as the events gets approved and the proper measures are taken. A lot of people on here are saying the state with treat Belle Isle differently...but I find it hard to believe.

**Bham1982** · December-03-13, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by JHatch1569

Pontiac Lake Rec Area [[another state park) host "Quake on the Lake" hydroplane races every year.

I certainly do not support "Quake on the Lake" or any of that crap in our state parks.

Why do we in Michigan always treat our natural areas as opportunities for exploitation? The entire tourism push Up North always seems centered around snowmobiling, ATV-ing, and shooting Bambi. Michigan has a terrific environment and we're always trying our damndest to make it as crappy as possible.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-03-13, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I certainly do not support "Quake on the Lake" or any of that crap in our state parks.

Why do we in Michigan always treat our natural areas as opportunities for exploitation? The entire tourism push Up North always seems centered around snowmobiling, ATV-ing, and shooting Bambi. Michigan has a terrific environment and we're always trying our damndest to make it as crappy as possible.

I hear the State wants to tear down the Zoo and put in a circus freak show! Oh and a Cheesecake Factory.

**Honky Tonk** · December-03-13, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I hear the State wants to tear down the Zoo and put in a circus freak show!

Another one?

**motz** · December-03-13, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I certainly do not support "Quake on the Lake" or any of that crap in our state parks.

Why do we in Michigan always treat our natural areas as opportunities for exploitation? The entire tourism push Up North always seems centered around snowmobiling, ATV-ing, and shooting Bambi. Michigan has a terrific environment and we're always trying our damndest to make it as crappy as possible.

So State Parks should only be for things that have been deemed acceptable by DetroitYES poster "Bham1982"? We should totally ignore that Belle Isle has been a cultural mainstay for more than just hiking and swimming since the park was created? The SCP Backpack Drive, with the exception of 2012, has always been held at one of the Shed's on Belle Isle. That's a music festival. How about the concerts at the old bandshells? I can see someone saying a festival of Orion's size being a bit too much, maybe even arguing over the Grand Prix, but to say that the park, or any other state park, should be used strictly for DetroitYES poster "Bham1982" approved uses is leaving out the millions of others in the state who might enjoy different things.

**Bham1982** · December-03-13, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by motz

So State Parks should only be for things that have been deemed acceptable by DetroitYES poster "Bham1982"?

Obviously no, but I'm hardly alone in noticing the disconnect.

There are many Michiganians who don't go up north to drive drunk through the woods on ATVs, while shooting at random things, but you would never know it the way the state handles its natural holdings.

For all the people who complain that young people move to the coasts or wherever because there's no choo-choo in Detroit, I think the state's utter disregard for the natural environment is a much bigger factor. There's no zoning in the townships, anyone can build a home anywhere, anyone can do anything with the rural land.

Michigan doesn't have real "urban", and outside of the UP, it's increasingly hard to find real "rural", with no stuff around.

And your argument that Belle Isle should host drag races and heavy metal concerts because of some historical reasons is very odd. First, Belle Isle wasn't a state park previously, and I'm not aware of Victorian-era headbanger balls and model-t racing ruining Detroit summers 100 years ago.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-03-13, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

There's no zoning in the townships, anyone can build a home anywhere, anyone can do anything with the rural land.

Au contraire mon frere: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/[[S[[twk...10-of-2006.pdf

Zoning has been allowed for quite some time. In 2006 there was an effort to bring City, County, and Township zoning acts together to be more workable with each other. In places where townships refuse to zone, then the county has the option to do so.

Zoning in and of itself is a tool that can result in some pretty piss poor land management practices. It is only as good as those who create and execute the ordinance.

**Johnnny5** · December-03-13, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by JHatch1569

Pontiac Lake Rec Area [[another state park) host "Quake on the Lake" hydroplane races every year. The event used to be hosted on a private lake many years ago but moved to PLRC due to logistics and other circumstances.

I don't see why the state would view Belle Isle any differently as long as the events gets approved and the proper measures are taken. A lot of people on here are saying the state with treat Belle Isle differently...but I find it hard to believe.

Quake On The Lake is a smaller event [[Or at least it's less involved due to the races themselves being on the water) and only closes one section of Pontiac Rec Area. The rest of the park including the shooting ranges, bike trails and group camping areas remain open and as far as I know are not affected. The beach area and launch where the majority of the event take place are returned to normal pretty quickly. The Orion Festival resulted in basically the closure all of Belle Isle for the entirety of the event and parts of it for weeks!

Also, I believe the Quake is also a fundraiser for local charities as well, not just for a profit event.